Warhammer Online hits 500k

[cevik]

Lower that Skaven Fan Club defensive erection! 

What I was saying is that, in the context of the games design, a new race means squat. The balance is centered upon classes, so asking for a new race to solve balance issues is like asking for a cup of hot lava when you are in the desert and thirsty. It's not going to fix the problem even if it might be interesting in and of itself.

Skaven are cool. People like playing rats for some reason. You've been around waaaaaay too long to go fanboi and honestly think that sticking in a cool race because they can't possibly screw up the classes is a solution. Anything can be screwed up. We all know that.

I believe you are talking about balanced mechanics.

They are talking about population imbalances.  People are playing destruction over order in a 2:1 or greater ratio.  The theories presented above were ways to draw people towards playing order to balance out the population.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Lower that Skaven Fan Club defensive erection! 

What I was saying is that, in the context of the games design, a new race means squat. The balance is centered upon classes, so asking for a new race to solve balance issues is like asking for a cup of hot lava when you are in the desert and thirsty. It's not going to fix the problem even if it might be interesting in and of itself.

Skaven are cool. People like playing rats for some reason. You've been around waaaaaay too long to go fanboi and honestly think that sticking in a cool race because they can't possibly screw up the classes is a solution. Anything can be screwed up. We all know that.

I believe you are talking about balanced mechanics.

They are talking about population imbalances.  People are playing destruction over order in a 2:1 or greater ratio.  The theories presented above were ways to draw people towards playing order to balance out the population.

Reading is hard.

[HaemishM]

Skaven are cool. People like playing rats for some reason. You've been around waaaaaay too long to go fanboi and honestly think that sticking in a cool race because they can't possibly screw up the classes is a solution. Anything can be screwed up. We all know that.

Most of the classes are just mirrors of the other side's classes. I'm pretty sure it'd be hard to fuck up new classes when you really have only 4 classes in essence, with each realm getting what are subclasses of a main archetype.

[Grimwell]

I believe you are talking about balanced mechanics.

They are talking about population imbalances.  People are playing destruction over order in a 2:1 or greater ratio.  The theories presented above were ways to draw people towards playing order to balance out the population.

Ahhhh, Lakov is right. Reading is hard. Damn I miss caffeine.

Well in that case, I prefer having more targets anyway, y'all can play Destruction all you want! :)

[Lum]

What I was saying is that, in the context of the games design, a new race means squat.

[HaemishM]

^ That.

[Mrbloodworth]

I think there was a per server unlocking, yes?

[Nebu]

I think there was a per server unlocking, yes?

At first, yes.  I think they gave it to all servers eventually. 

[schild]

What I was saying is that, in the context of the games design, a new race means squat.

Lum already beat me to the obvious, but really? REALLY? Tell me that was a joke. Like, a big fucking joke you've been saving that just happened to fall flat.

tl;dr You're wrong.

[Grimwell]

You guys are kidding right?

In Warhammer Online Races = Balance? Exactly what, beyond cosmetics does my race actually do for me? (Loads WAR) Hmmm, nothing. The Races themselves lend nothing to the abilities of my character. Some of them do look pretty though.

I didn't say they were not marketing devices (Like WoW -- thanks Lum)

I said that they were not agents of balance. IE you can drop all the fooking Warhammer races into WAR right now and it means jack shit about class balance.

Now, on the point that I missed about population imbalances, you are right and I noted that I failed to grab that ball and run with it. If it turns out that there is a serious imbalance between the two sides of the game, putting in a sexy new race would convince some folks to try the other side out. You won't find me debating that.

[Sjofn]

You all keep saying "people" when you mean "PVPers."   I predicted this imbalance a long, long time ago and you laughed, LAUGHED at me while pointing to WoW.  It's good to know I still know people's behaviors pretty well.

I was going off my experience in DAoC, personally.

Empire having no knight probably IS part of why Order is underpopulated. It's not so much "Empire needs a tank" as "Order needs a plate wearing human."

I'm not really buying the "high elves are pussies" thing, though. The dark elves aren't exactly macho either.

[Lum]

Now, on the point that I missed about population imbalances, you are right and I noted that I failed to grab that ball and run with it. If it turns out that there is a serious imbalance between the two sides of the game, putting in a sexy new race would convince some folks to try the other side out. You won't find me debating that.

Class balance is outweighted by population balance if population balance is overwhelmingly in one side's favor.

IE it doesn't matter how awesome Bright Wizards are, if they die 5m into setting foot in RvR land to a zerg of Black Orcs.

[Sjofn]

Now, on the point that I missed about population imbalances, you are right and I noted that I failed to grab that ball and run with it. If it turns out that there is a serious imbalance between the two sides of the game, putting in a sexy new race would convince some folks to try the other side out. You won't find me debating that.

Class balance is outweighted by population balance if population balance is overwhelmingly in one side's favor.

IE it doesn't matter how awesome Bright Wizards are, if they die 5m into setting foot in RvR land to a zerg of Black Orcs.

See: Mid/Igraine and the Healer class. :P

[EWSpider]

You guys are kidding right?

In Warhammer Online Races = Balance? Exactly what, beyond cosmetics does my race actually do for me? (Loads WAR) Hmmm, nothing. The Races themselves lend nothing to the abilities of my character. Some of them do look pretty though.

Actually, WAR has racial Tactics.  Each Race has several Tactics unique to it that are independant of what class you choose.  This is still somewhat moot seeing that classes are restricted by Race, but if there were ever a class available to more than one Race then Race would have a rather large impact on balance.

[Lakov_Sanite]

edit:need smaller pics

[Lantyssa]

I'm not really buying the "high elves are pussies" thing, though. The dark elves aren't exactly macho either.

The Dark Elves at least have the whole goth thing and/or skimpy outfits going for them.  The guys can also get away with being a villainous bishie.  Maybe not macho, but cool.

The High Elves though?  Androgenous at best.   That's cool for some people, but there isn't a lot of draw beyond "being an elf".

[mutantmagnet]

Lower that Skaven Fan Club defensive erection! 

What I was saying is that, in the context of the games design, a new race means squat. The balance is centered upon classes, so asking for a new race to solve balance issues is like asking for a cup of hot lava when you are in the desert and thirsty. It's not going to fix the problem even if it might be interesting in and of itself.

Skaven are cool. People like playing rats for some reason. You've been around waaaaaay too long to go fanboi and honestly think that sticking in a cool race because they can't possibly screw up the classes is a solution. Anything can be screwed up. We all know that.

Meh, race does matter. The population shifts that occurred when Horde got Blood Elves vs Alliance getting Draenei bears this out when you look at the classes they share. I'm not (and I doubt anyone else is) saying that the sides will be relatively balanced. What we are assuming though is that one way or another race choices will create a definite population shift, one which we hope makes things something relatively acceptable like 45% vs 55.

The bottom line is that if the pops can be balanced through the introduction of new races, then we can avoid using increasingly more extreme measures such as buffs to the side with the lower pop.

 Ofcourse some of us (looks like many actually) believe certain races becoming destro will completely obliterate this effort and hopefully Mythic is smart enough to do some research to see if this assumption is true or hogwash.

[Ingmar]

I'm not really buying the "high elves are pussies" thing, though. The dark elves aren't exactly macho either.

The Dark Elves at least have the whole goth thing and/or skimpy outfits going for them.  The guys can also get away with being a villainous bishie.  Maybe not macho, but cool.

The High Elves though?  Androgenous at best.   That's cool for some people, but there isn't a lot of draw beyond "being an elf".

A villainous what?

[murdoc]

Bishie!

[tazelbain]

Pretty boy, like Sesshomaru.

[Fordel]

One thing I noticed the other night, is one side has a fucking Mortal Strike Aura, while the other doesn't.

Things like that aren't helping any pop balance ideals.

[Count Nerfedalot]

Bishie!

= Bishounen = beautiful boy

[Lantyssa]

Pretty boy, like Sesshomaru.

Or Sephiroth for those who don't know Inuyasha but might know FF7.

[Azazel]

Empire having no knight probably IS part of why Order is underpopulated. It's not so much "Empire needs a tank" as "Order needs a plate wearing human."

I'm not really buying the "high elves are pussies" thing, though. The dark elves aren't exactly macho either.

Empire is all about plate wearing humans. Reiksgard, Knights Panther, Knights of the Blazing Sun..

My money on something sttractive to players would be the White Wolves of Ulric. Essentially Plate Armour + Wolf furs and heads + big fucking hammers + a good dose of Viking badassery.



And they fit right into Empire.

[kildorn]

Skaven!

Also: class imbalance to fix population issues/distribution resulted in Sorcerers in DAOC. Bitch please, that was some hilarious bullshit to put on a class to get people to play them. 

Anyways, the current "let's try an xp bonus!" thing doesn't work, ugh. It would need to be either massive, or changed to something useful, like a damage bonus or something from your kingdom having more resources to pump into fewer troops.

[Oz]

Anyways, the current "let's try an xp bonus!" thing doesn't work, ugh.

not to mention pointless once most of population is max rank...

[deadplayer]

It must be a WoW killer. 

[Nebu]

It must be a WoW killer. 

Noone with more than 6 brain cells thought it would be.  It's a game that fills a gap in the market.  If you don't see the value in the title, just wait and see how many aspects from it end up in Blizzard games down the road.  WAR is far from perfect, but I think it has succeeded in advancing the genre.  Even if just a little.

[Lakov_Sanite]

It must be a WoW killer. 

Noone with more than 6 brain cells thought it would be.  It's a game that fills a gap in the market.  If you don't see the value in the title, just wait and see how many aspects from it end up in Blizzard games down the road.  WAR is far from perfect, but I think it has succeeded in advancing the genre.  Even if just a little.

wow has already planned on taking the exp from battlegrounds and the queueing up anywhere ideas.

I am curious though what war's numbers are looking like right now though.

[Zetor]

I never thought of WAR as a WOW killer; imo WAR is to WOW as DAOC is to EQ. I'm having more fun playing WAR than WOW atm... maybe the shiny will fade soon. /shrug


-- Z.

[Nija]

WAR competes with TF2. It doesn't compete with WoW.


It might start competeing with WoW when you can accomplish something in a 15 minute playsession in WoW.

[Evildrider]

WAR competes with TF2. It doesn't compete with WoW.


It might start competeing with WoW when you can accomplish something in a 15 minute playsession in WoW.

Ooo.. I love those 15 minute playsessions in WoW.  Get on Griffon to go someplace.. wait 15 minutes to arrive, then log.   

[Jimbo]

WAR competes with TF2. It doesn't compete with WoW.


It might start competeing with WoW when you can accomplish something in a 15 minute playsession in WoW.

Maybe, but MMOG's tend to exclude the FPS player, the kind who wonders why they can't go kill other people from the get go and get excluded from some maps because they haven't played long enough...  Of course WAR may not want to get more people playing, at least with the reports you all are stating about leveling speed.

[Venkman]

WAR vs TF2?  Tell me you think a significant portion of TF2 players would jump to WAR as an alternative experience.

What I was saying is that, in the context of the games design, a new race means squat.

<picture of WoW: BC desktop>

In the context of game design, a new race by itself means squat. Note the emphasis. Class means something. Abilities mean something. Race, by itself is just a new vaneer which unto itself is mostly a marketing promotion (which is what Blood Elves were, to solve two years of problems Horde had in WoW).

You can use race to fix some problems. Problems that most MMOs have had. But just adding a race without considering the Class(es) and Abilities isn't going to solve your problem. I'd have thought this part would be obvious to everyone here.

The other factor is that Race and Class in WAR are sorta synonymous, or at least much more so than they are in WoW.

Class balance is outweighted by population balance if population balance is overwhelmingly in one side's favor.

IE it doesn't matter how awesome Bright Wizards are, if they die 5m into setting foot in RvR land to a zerg of Black Orcs.

But this can be rooted in class imbalance. If the majority of players are playing Black Orcs, say, after the first three months of a game, it's most likely because they're way overpowered in some meaningful way to the game mechanic. It could be that they have the most amount of quests that provide the fastest-leveling XP, or that they have some situationally-critical ability, or whatever. Long and short is that Black Orcs don't arrive into a situation wiith far superior numbers without a lot of decisions made by each individual player well before that situation.

[Ratman_tf]

WAR competes with TF2. It doesn't compete with WoW.


It might start competeing with WoW when you can accomplish something in a 15 minute playsession in WoW.

Ooo.. I love those 15 minute playsessions in WoW.  Get on Griffon to go someplace.. wait 15 minutes to arrive, then log.   

!