ATITD: A Good Alternative to Darkfall

[Signe]

Only because it exists.   

Citizens of Egypt,

   It's been far too long without a newsletter. Over the course of our third Tale in the Desert, we've been challenged by new Tests created by our ancestors. In the Test of the True Leadership, we've given recognition to those that spearhead Egypt's great projects, to those that craft our laws, and to those that assist others in the Seven Disciplines.
  In the Test of the Oyster Catcher we have explored Egypt's shores in a quest for oyster beds bearing rare pearls.
  In the Test of Leavened Bread, we have learned to grow wheat, and bake it into loaves of nourishing bread.
  In the Test of Ka, we have built tombs that will one day carry us to the afterlife.
  And we have also puzzled over the Test of the Archaeologist, the Test of the Coalition, the Test of the Plantation, and all of the Tests of Harmony.
  But one great challenge remains in our Tale - construction of the seven Great Monuments that will allow us to create new Tests, to leave our mark on the land, to challenge our descendants in A Tale in the Desert IV. Plans for these monuments are said to be inscribed on stone tablets deep in the desert, but the areas rumored to contain them are inaccessible - blocked by rings of mountains. Intriguingly, inventor Ktisibios has been seen in a craft that would easily cross the mountain rings, and there are whispers of his return over the weekend.

  I'd like to invite all previous Citizens of Egypt back for the weekend - no cost, no credit card needed, no strings attached, starting Friday September 19, 2:00 EDT (GMT-0400). Reconnect with old friends, learn about all that has been discovered during the course of our Tale, and learn about plans for A Tale in the Desert IV in a special chat session:

      Saturday, September 20, Noon EDT (GMT-0400)

  Looking forward to seeing everyone. 

On the Nile,
Teppy (Pharaoh)

Standard Stuff:
 
  Download for Windows, Linux and Macintosh.
    http://www.atitd.com
  Official IRC chat channel:
    irc.sorcery.net port 6667 channel #ATITD
  Mailing list removal and privacy policy you won't believe:
    http://www.atitd.com/newsletter.html

[Nebu]

Plans for a 4th Tale?  Teppy has all but been a ghost in the last telling. 

Makes me wonder if his other project (Alvin's world) vaporized. 

[Yegolev]

Have there been any actual game changes?

[Nebu]

A leveling system was added in Tale 3.  I hated it.  It seemed to cockblock the best part of ATitD; the part where you could just log on and enjoy the aspects of the game that were fun to you.  Now you have to attain levels in order to unlock different skill/craft trees.  While it's a good thing in forcing people to try new playstyles outside of their comfort zone, I think it drove away quite a few players that enjoyed the game for its sandbox aspects.

[naum]

A leveling system was added in Tale 3.  I hated it.  It seemed to cockblock the best part of ATitD; the part where you could just log on and enjoy the aspects of the game that were fun to you.  Now you have to attain levels in order to unlock different skill/craft trees.  While it's a good thing in forcing people to try new playstyles outside of their comfort zone, I think it drove away quite a few players that enjoyed the game for its sandbox aspects.

THIS

Yes, wonder what is going on with Teppy & crew… …weren't they supposed to be doing a world based off Orson Scott Card Ender's Game? Or did that get 86ed long ago?

[Yoru]

Leveling, blah.

I presume the game is also still RSI Incarnate, since doing anything interesting used to require hours of gathering materials to fill lower tiers of the economic tree. Which always boiled down to picking fucking grass and making bricks.

[Slyfeind]

The compounds were bad enough. We used to be able to build whatever we wanted, wherever we wanted it, except there were "crowding" rules whereas too many objects would crowd each other out. You had to space things carefully. But now you have to build a big ugly garage and put your stuff in there. No more open air pottery.

But yeah, I'll be there for the monuments. I always am....

[Yegolev]

Levels?  I was already relegated to the brickmaking end of the power pyramid (which is, I suppose, a step above the slate-gathering part).  No thanks.

[Nebu]

ATitD is a chat program with a 3D interface.  Most of the seasoned players used scripted macros to do almost every mundane task.  The addition of levels just reinforced the grind for those of us that still liked to manually do every task.  I had some fun with it for the first 10 levels, but found that it really diluted the content.  When everyone has to pass art and puzzle tests just to be able to do other, unrelated things, the landscape became filled with reminders of crap from "gamed" tests.  This was the deal breaker for me. 

[Trouble]

It's funny to see all these people here posting that I recognize the names of from atitd. Knew these names before I ever knew what f13 was.

[Hutch]

When everyone has to pass art and puzzle tests just to be able to do other, unrelated things, the landscape became filled with reminders of crap from "gamed" tests.  This was the deal breaker for me. 

Hmm. Judging by the number of Art tests that lined the roads in T1, you'd think there were levels back then, too. Although back then you only "had" to do the Art sculpture if you wanted to unlock the rest of Art. So: either Egypt had a mass of budding Art students in T1, or that test was just so easy to put together that nearly everyone gave it a shot anyway.

Having said that, I agree about the levels. In T3, I found myself participating in the Demi-Pharaoh test just because you leveled up if you got past the first round of voting. That never would have happened without levels.

[Yegolev]

It's funny to see all these people here posting that I recognize the names of from atitd. Knew these names before I ever knew what f13 was.

Hopefully you don't recognize my handle, or I daresay you were doing it wrong.  I know I was.

[Slyfeind]

Hmm. Judging by the number of Art tests that lined the roads in T1, you'd think there were levels back then, too. Although back then you only "had" to do the Art sculpture if you wanted to unlock the rest of Art. So: either Egypt had a mass of budding Art students in T1, or that test was just so easy to put together that nearly everyone gave it a shot anyway.

I remember when Indonesian bee hives were available. We all wanted Indonesian honey and fruit trees, but you had to win a beetle competition to build them. And to win a beetle competition, you needed a winning sculpture. Suddenly Egypt was awash with piles of crap, sticks, and mud, all titled "plz help me breed beetles."

It did meet a bit of resistance back then. People were wondering why the hell we needed to jump through so many hoops, it didn't make sense, etc etc. So yeah, levels are the crap-sculpture phenomenon times infinity.

Teppy mentioned in a chat that he realizes levels weren't perfect (OMG!) but he feels they did help a bit with player retention. Hopefully he'll figure out what needs to be done: keep the levels, but remove all the restrictions they impose.

[cironian]

Hmm. Judging by the number of Art tests that lined the roads in T1, you'd think there were levels back then, too. Although back then you only "had" to do the Art sculpture if you wanted to unlock the rest of Art. So: either Egypt had a mass of budding Art students in T1, or that test was just so easy to put together that nearly everyone gave it a shot anyway.

I think those introduction tests were actually done exactly right. Each discipline had one test that was a really, really simplified version of the actual tests you would find in there. If you found that introduction test was not to your liking you could ignore the whole discipline, knowing that you have not wasted much time. If you didn't want to place a simple sculpture, all the art tests were probably not for you.

At the same time, this never blocked you from completing any of the other disciplines. The level thing is bad because it makes people jump through hoops that are completely unrelated to their interests. Like killing lots of foozles to gain high enough level to do the crafting you want to do in other games.

[Slyfeind]

I wish they'd just bring back the Tale 1 world and let us play around in it forever.

[Hutch]

I remember when Indonesian bee hives were available. We all wanted Indonesian honey and fruit trees, but you had to win a beetle competition to build them. And to win a beetle competition, you needed a winning sculpture. Suddenly Egypt was awash with piles of crap, sticks, and mud, all titled "plz help me breed beetles."

OH talk about gamed! Those beetle contests were rigged. I entered a couple contests with my awesome and delicious beetles, and lost to people who'd barely tried. This was one of the big clues that ATITD hinged more on socialization than it did on actually building stuff.

I loved beetle breeding though. That and beer brewing were my primary projects in T1.

[Kamen]

Teppy mentioned in a chat that he realizes levels weren't perfect (OMG!) but he feels they did help a bit with player retention.

Tell him to look over the census and tell me again how it's helping with player retention.  Last I looked he was down to 1050 subscriptions or so.  The bottom line is that they are a mistake, and he simply won't admit it.

Anyway, Tale 1 of ATitD will always be one of my most fondly remembered gaming experiences.  I had an absolutely great time.  In Tale 3, the combination of compounds, levels, and Lung Spore Disease finally drove me to quit.

[Yoru]

What in the living fuck is Lung Spore Disease?

Also, I too fondly remember playing ATITD 1 for a handful of months. I had a little commune with some university buds, and we just kind of fucked around with whatever we wanted. Eventually we built up a decent industrial base out in the middle of nowhere, with the only real outside reliance being on some high-end metals and petroleum for our Ore Inferno.

I remember coming home one night, stinking drunk and "camping the water bong" (waiting for gems) for all of 2 minutes before something crazy rare came out. Much to the consternation of my colleagues, I grabbed it, loaded it onto the gem table and proceeded to begin cutting in my heavily-inebriated state. Then I cut one of the harder patterns (I think it was the big wheel with the hole in the center?) from it. There was much rejoicing.

Tale 2, most of the folks I played with burnt out during beta, especially thanks to the compounds and new mining mechanics. I liked the new toolsmithing bit that involved hammering metals with the two different hammers, as well as the chariot points, but I didn't stay on too terribly long. I burned out after being like the 3rd person to finish the test of the acrobat in that telling, after having taught something like 2200 moves.

Tale 3, I never even got past the trial. Blame Eve, levels and not wanting to get RSI picking grass.

[Kamen]

What in the living fuck is Lung Spore Disease?

You know Teppy and his twisted societal challenges.  Nothing spells gaming fun like having his players getting "the plague".

http://wiki.atitd.net/tale3/Plague

It's no longer an issue, but at its zenith it was causing all kinds of in game angst.

[Xanthippe]

Teppy mentioned in a chat that he realizes levels weren't perfect (OMG!) but he feels they did help a bit with player retention. Hopefully he'll figure out what needs to be done: keep the levels, but remove all the restrictions they impose.

Helped with player retention?  How many did it drive away?

[Xanthippe]

Leveling, blah.

I presume the game is also still RSI Incarnate, since doing anything interesting used to require hours of gathering materials to fill lower tiers of the economic tree. Which always boiled down to picking fucking grass and making bricks.

If you miss that, go play HKO.

[Nebu]

If you miss that, go play HKO.

Interestingly, ATitD still has some appeal to me.  The early arms race is fun.  Figuring out puzzles can be entertaining.  The populace is still among the most engaging that I've met in any MMO.  If Teppy could implement some ways to introduce fun while staying out of the way of his playerbase, this game would be my primary pasttime.  Unfortunately, I get burned out on repetitive tasks and the high school prom queen aspects of the popularity contests. 

[Slyfeind]

Teppy mentioned in a chat that he realizes levels weren't perfect (OMG!) but he feels they did help a bit with player retention. Hopefully he'll figure out what needs to be done: keep the levels, but remove all the restrictions they impose.

Helped with player retention?  How many did it drive away?

In the first two tales, most players quit after two months. In tale 3, most players quit after three months. And that's all he's going by.

[DeathInABottle]

Teppy mentioned in a chat that he realizes levels weren't perfect (OMG!) but he feels they did help a bit with player retention. Hopefully he'll figure out what needs to be done: keep the levels, but remove all the restrictions they impose.

Helped with player retention?  How many did it drive away?

In the first two tales, most players quit after two months. In tale 3, most players quit after three months. And that's all he's going by.

That's exactly my experience.  In the first one, I played for around three months, and then got bored.  In the second, I lasted a month or two.  In the third, I lasted nearly five: I found some creative (read: macro'd) ways to make the tests and principles easier to pass, and that kept me engaged.

[Xanthippe]

I love the crafting in ATiTD but the other parts not so much.  The tests don't engage me, I just don't care.  The travel is ridiculously slow and doesn't get faster for way too long.  And there's no shooting or killing.  Booooring.

If a game like WoW or WAR or even DAOC could incorporate ATiTD crafting, that would be almost the perfect game for me.

[LK]

A game like ATITD but on a much smaller scale could work. Animal Crossing MMO? The "Massive Single Player" aspects of Fable II also seem very positive: playing through an open world game, being able to see other players in other universes on your map, being able to interact with them and join their games.

[DeathInABottle]

I disagree about the scale and the travel times; I think they evoke the kind of atmosphere that Teppy's going for, and they give the player a lot of choice about what kind of a game he (or she - it's actually a valid distinction in ATITD) wants.  If I want to be in the center of a lot of activity, I'll set up camp in Seven Lakes.  If I want to be a hermit, there are hundreds of excellent options in the near and far wilderness.

[Nebu]

Leave the scale and let us use tech trees to build transportation.  Making working vehicles that use different things for fuel would be a GREAT test.  The higher the quality/value of the material used for fuel, the faster the vehicle travels.

Teppy missed SO many good opportunities. 

[naum]

Leave the scale and let us use tech trees to build transportation.  Making working vehicles that use different things for fuel would be a GREAT test.  The higher the quality/value of the material used for fuel, the faster the vehicle travels.

Teppy missed SO many good opportunities. 

Wow, that would have been cool.

[tazelbain]

Teppy missed SO many good opportunities. 

Being a 2 man development team kinda limits your opportunities.

[Nebu]

Being a 2 man development team kinda limits your opportunities.

Certainly does.  It saddens me that the game never garnered investor support.  So much lost potential. 

[naum]

Teppy missed SO many good opportunities. 

Being a 2 man development team kinda limits your opportunities.

Y but were they not also constrained by the game engine too… …that it just didn't lend itself to stepping outside those bounds, and with a 2 man team, kind of hard to rewrite the engine…

[Slyfeind]

Faster travel and vehicles are brought up a lot, and they wouldn't be hard to do. We've already got them to a certain extent, with run-buff food and road travel versus off-road travel. And we have air ships, boats, and giant robot spiders. Teppy could put more in, but he won't. He likes limiting player travel as much as possible because he feels it creates more isolated communities and nationalism and such. I'm surprised we can increase our run speed at all.

[Nebu]

I think that size and isolation would be better serve if there were more in game goods that were regional.  There are a few now, but creating trade routes where key ingredients for more important, higher tier items were found would help.  I've always wanted an Acro-like test as well, but instead of moves you'd learn languages.  Different languages by region would add a flair as would colors, fabrics, and avatar choices.

[Xanthippe]

Great ideas, Nebu.

I love to explore in games, but there's just too much the same for too long in ATiTD.  And once you get somewhere far far away, it's not ALL that different than where you were two days ago.

If people have a reason to travel, they will.  Different commodities in different areas, resources hubs that are more unique but perhaps not useful until later in the game, might work out with Teppy's vision.

My vision and Teppy's vision are different, though.  I'd like to see a Civilization type mmo incorporating crafting like ATiTD - complete with war.