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Author Topic: The Elder Scrolls Online  (Read 755965 times)
Falconeer
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Reply #1120 on: March 24, 2013, 10:48:05 AM

Does it HAVE autoattack though? Or are you actively swinging and shit?
Not that I could see. Left click to use your soft attack, right click for block, Q and R for quickslot items (health in Q, my R was empty but presumably that's for a stamina or mana potion), number keys for abilities.

It wasn't as spammy as MUO (or D3). I'm fine with it though because the only time spammy-clicking annoys me is when the game also uses ground targeting for movement (ie, all isometric loot games). But that's just a minor annoyance quickly overcome when the loots dropping in those appropriate experiences.

If your soft attack is really just something to do while you wait for your special abilities to recharge then I don't see what's so wrong with having it work automatically instead of making the player left-click repeatedly?


Tera uses (manual) "white attacks" as a way to manage your mana/power used for magics and powers. I am not expecting TESO combat to be half as good as Tera's, but removing auto-attack is the first step towards a less repetitive and more user-dependent (as opposed to gear-and-spreadsheet dependent) combat experience.

EDIT: For the record, Tera is the perfect example of a combat where your soft/white attack is used a lot for tactical reasons but it cannot be spammed, mostly due the importance of positioning. So no crazy clicking.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 10:55:24 AM by Falconeer »

Venkman
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Reply #1121 on: March 24, 2013, 11:37:35 AM

If your soft attack is really just something to do while you wait for your special abilities to recharge then I don't see what's so wrong with having it work automatically instead of making the player left-click repeatedly?

I never played TERA (or if I did, quickly forgot it), but ESO felt more like what Falconeer described. It was not spammy in the way that makes you wonder why they didn't just make it an auto attack.
ashrik
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Reply #1122 on: March 24, 2013, 09:18:40 PM

Darniaq, did you get a chance to play Neverwinter at PAXeast? If so, how would you compare the way the two games feel with regards to combat?
Shannow
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Reply #1123 on: March 25, 2013, 08:19:20 AM

Darniaq, did you get a chance to play Neverwinter at PAXeast? If so, how would you compare the way the two games feel with regards to combat?

God bless him if he had the patience to stand in that line.  That was stupid long.

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ashrik
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Reply #1124 on: March 25, 2013, 10:33:00 AM

I played it on Saturday, but I didn't wait in a line. Not sure what the circumstances were, actually, i just walked up to an open computer and started backstabbing people.
Whoops, thought this was the Neverwinter thread
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 01:29:37 PM by ashrik »
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #1125 on: March 25, 2013, 10:58:13 AM

Left click to attack is fine and all until you get to long ass boss fights with repeated wipes and attempts. Just the thought of playing my wow rogue where I would have to click my auto attacks makes my hand cramp up.

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Falconeer
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Reply #1126 on: March 25, 2013, 12:15:43 PM

Stopping to think in WoW terms improves your gamer's life.

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Reply #1127 on: March 25, 2013, 12:26:43 PM

Unless of course you're one of the millions upon millions of people who like WoW-style gameplay.

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Falconeer
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Reply #1128 on: March 25, 2013, 12:31:02 PM

You are right, in that case it makes perfect sense that you comment on the thread about a game that is not WoW to say how bad it would be if that game actually tried to be WoW without doing things the way WoW do.

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Reply #1129 on: March 25, 2013, 01:03:55 PM

Left click to attack is fine and all until you get to long ass boss fights with repeated wipes and attempts. Just the thought of playing my wow rogue where I would have to click my auto attacks makes my hand cramp up.
In Neverwinter you just have to hold down the LMB. Kind of like playing a tf2 pyro  awesome, for real

(obviously if you hold down the button like that, you'll be SOL if you need to dodge something. But hey, at least it's an option!)

Venkman
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Reply #1130 on: March 25, 2013, 03:51:16 PM

Unless of course you're one of the millions upon millions of people who like WoW-style gameplay.
Or in the business of delivering an MMO to a genre where about 95% of the players have played WoW and probably half of them didn't play any MMOs before it and a good percentage of them probably haven't played another one for nearly as long.

In other words: nothing wrong with comparing an MMO to WoW. We were all comparing them to EQ1 originally once like-UO fell out of favor awesome, for real

Darniaq, did you get a chance to play Neverwinter at PAXeast? If so, how would you compare the way the two games feel with regards to combat?
Wish I did but got burned out on line-standing after ESO smiley
Falconeer
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Reply #1131 on: March 25, 2013, 05:21:41 PM

Left click to attack is fine and all until you get to long ass boss fights with repeated wipes and attempts. Just the thought of playing my wow rogue where I would have to click my auto attacks makes my hand cramp up.
Stopping to think in WoW terms improves your gamer's life.
Unless of course you're one of the millions upon millions of people who like WoW-style gameplay.
Or in the business of delivering an MMO to a genre where about 95% of the players have played WoW and probably half of them didn't play any MMOs before it and a good percentage of them probably haven't played another one for nearly as long.

In other words: nothing wrong with comparing an MMO to WoW. We were all comparing them to EQ1 originally once like-UO fell out of favor awesome, for real

Nothing wrong comparing but there's not a real comparison up there. What's the point of thinking of WoW without auto-attack?
Are they gonna remove auto-attack from WoW? Or do we know if TESO boss fights are going to be built as WoW's? There are already thousands of games and MMOs where you have to click to attack (or keep a key pressed to attack repeatedly), and no one gets hand cramps. Because they are not-WoW and they are not built around the auto-attack mechanic which allows for and make bearable hours long fights.
This is not about what way is better, not in the slightest and not what I meant. To each his/her/their own. I only meant to point out that if you always comment on things based on how they work or would work in WoW, even when the topic is Absolutely-Not-WoW, hard not to note that your perspective is very narrow.

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Reply #1132 on: March 25, 2013, 05:24:55 PM

Unless of course you're one of the millions upon millions of people who like WoW-style gameplay.

In which case you'd just play WoW - as a dozen companies have discovered.

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Venkman
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Reply #1133 on: March 25, 2013, 08:05:31 PM

Are they gonna remove auto-attack from WoW? Or do we know if TESO boss fights are going to be built as WoW's? There are already thousands of games and MMOs where you have to click to attack (or keep a key pressed to attack repeatedly), and no one gets hand cramps. Because they are not-WoW and they are not built around the auto-attack mechanic which allows for and make bearable hours long fights.
This is not about what way is better, not in the slightest and not what I meant. To each his/her/their own. I only meant to point out that if you always comment on things based on how they work or would work in WoW, even when the topic is Absolutely-Not-WoW, hard not to note that your perspective is very narrow.
I agree with you on the second point. The universe isn't measured on a scale of +/- WoW smiley I just think it's so inevitable to compare <New Thing> with <Most Popular Thing> that it's silly to critique that comparison. Everything derives from something else, which is the glass-half-full version of everything stands on the shoulder of giants.

On the first point though: I actually find "WoW autoattack" interesting. I don't recall it ever being autoattack for me. Everything I did was a keystroke. But then, I only played caster-like classes and could never understand the allure of wands. It was still spammy, especially in the old school Fire/Arc template (scortch scortch scortch scorth, oh wait for it... scrortch!). I didn't have access to nearly enough abilities in the ESO demo to see if it'd be the same.

I also didn't see anything in the way of group combos or skills building into other skills. But my first real blush with ESO was actually this demo, so I don't know nearly as much as everyone else here about how the whole thing plays, or what's accessible in beta, etc.

I'm hoping for some element of dynamic world events (even if they're predictable like Rift or GW2) and some amount of action-y combat. Based on what you said about, sounds like TERA has that. Once i get through Bioshock, I may hafta give that a whirl just to see.
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Reply #1134 on: March 26, 2013, 03:59:24 AM

Unless of course you're one of the millions upon millions of people who like WoW-style gameplay.

In which case you'd just play WoW - as a dozen companies have discovered.

Not anymore.  With blizzard screwing the pooch on the last expansion and now fucking the same player base again By forcing progression and wanting raids to "matter" WoW is weaker than ever.   Only Pokemon and habit seem to be keeping people in it now.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #1135 on: March 27, 2013, 04:51:34 PM

Stopping to think in WoW terms improves your gamer's life.

Don't delude yourself into thinking they won't steal from the modern MMO genre in huge swaths, forget wow.

You have either two options when it comes to twitch attacks.

1. Make each attack meaningful IE:Skyrim, putting a lot of power in the swing and not in special abilities except now many will feel like your game doesn't have enough depth cause they don't have rows of shiny buttons.
2. You have a hotbar filled with abilities much more important that your constant button mashing which becomes tedious.

I would love to play a rogue that wields weapons and doesn't have a million different "tricks" with 6 hotbars like SWTOR but do you really think that's gonna happen?  Face facts, TESO is not going to break much tradition and that means you are gonna be mashing the mouse like an idiot.

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Falconeer
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Reply #1136 on: March 27, 2013, 05:39:12 PM

2. You have a hotbar filled with abilities much more important that your constant button mashing which becomes tedious.

TERA says combat can have a hotbar filled with abilities alongside twitchy soft attacks that are important without a need to spam them. I am not even remotely thinking (hoping) TESO will have a combat like that, or a combat I will enjoy. All I am saying is that MMORPG combat has evolved, and it might not be obvious if we only pay attention to million-subscribers games, but there's some pretty cool and smart stuff out there already.

Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #1137 on: March 27, 2013, 06:37:34 PM

If you have an attack that can be spammed then you either spam it or you don't do as well as the person that does.

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waffel
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Reply #1138 on: March 27, 2013, 08:03:20 PM

If you have an attack that can be spammed then you either spam it or you don't do as well as the person that does.

Which doesn't really matter much outside PvE raiding damage parsing poopsockers.
Falconeer
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Reply #1139 on: March 28, 2013, 12:32:50 AM

If you have an attack that can be spammed then you either spam it or you don't do as well as the person that does.

You really don't know what you are talking about. Seriously, you should play more than one game.

Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #1140 on: March 28, 2013, 02:34:46 AM

If you have an attack that can be spammed then you either spam it or you don't do as well as the person that does.

Which doesn't really matter much outside PvE raiding damage parsing poopsockers.

PVP

And falconeer, I've played over a dozen different MMO's in the past decade not just wow. TESO is not some bizarre indy title either, if you think they're going to rock the boat with innovation I think you're being naive.

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Falconeer
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Reply #1141 on: March 28, 2013, 03:37:11 AM

No Lakov, all I am saying is that I don't understand why you fail to acknowledge that there are combat systems now in MMOs that work perfectly well without auto-attack. I never meant to say (well, not in this thread) that they are better. Just that they exist and work very well, while you seemed to imply with the comment that started this that they would just be hand-cramps material (since they would in WoW).

No idea what TESO will be like. I have zero investment in this game, not even trying to like it. Just saying that having a soft attack on your left click and a defensive skill on your right click on top of a hotbar filled with powers and abilities is far from being a bad thing, as demonstrated by a few recent products out there. Regardless of personal preference, implementation and execution are what will make it awesome or shitty. Not the concept.

Draegan
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Reply #1142 on: March 28, 2013, 08:51:16 AM

Lakov, you're pretty much wrong though. If you're spamming attacks in TERA you're doing it wrong. How wrong will vary on class. Timing is more important than anything else.
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Reply #1143 on: April 14, 2013, 02:02:37 PM

So there is a 20 minutes leaked gameplay video bouncing around the 'tubes... the game looks pretty damn generic...
Mattemeo
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Reply #1144 on: April 14, 2013, 02:18:51 PM

PC Gamer has it.

It's... not exactly bad. It's just so utterly devoid of personality or charm and looks exactly like a game that hasn't had any graphical improvement since development started. The UI is austere and I suppose vaguely reminiscent of Skyrim's UI (though probably not as fuckawful to use) and the animations are pretty cheap and lifeless. The game seems to be fully voice-overed but we're not talking Bioware stuff by a long shot.
It reminds me most of a slightly updated DAoC. I don't say that in a nostalgic fashion, either. Because what it reminds me of is all the mistakes and terrible old systems that game had over a decade ago - XP debt, anyone? Yeah, I thought not.

About the biggest difference to most fantasy MMO gameplay TESO has is the reticule - magic is cast in the same manner as the singleplayer games and I'd assume Archery follows the same rules.

It just seems crazy Zenimax think this is going to cut the mustard in a post SWtOR/GW2 market or remotely compete with any of the old guard games. This feels like a massive misstep in the end. It'll probably do alright at launch if they can clean it up between now and then but I reckon it might have the fastest player exodus in MMO history.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 02:27:53 PM by Mattemeo »

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waffel
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Reply #1145 on: April 14, 2013, 02:38:30 PM

You can feel the 2007 development start-date leaking through the screen
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Reply #1146 on: April 14, 2013, 03:20:43 PM

Two things bother me about that video. One thing was whoever was "playing" the game was so horrible at it, they managed not only to die twice within starting, but they also refused to stop clicking through the quests. If you're showing gameplay, show at least one full voiced character without cutting them off. Total dumbass.

The second thing was the casting. It seemed like there was no targeting in the traditional tab sense, however there we a couple of times where missiles found targets when the camera was facing another direction. If there are lock-on targets, that's a no-go for me. That's just fancy tab-target.

The UI/graphics are going to be a complaint for some, which I guess I can understand on the graphics front. Skyrim sort of set the bar there, and anything that steps backwards and releases later will be looked upon with contempt. However, we all KNEW the UI would be a disaster. They've never done that right. Ever, ever, ever.

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Threash
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Reply #1147 on: April 14, 2013, 03:56:39 PM

Looks like it's gone now, any other place to see it?

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Reply #1148 on: April 14, 2013, 04:09:38 PM


CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
Falconeer
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Reply #1149 on: April 14, 2013, 04:37:47 PM

You can feel the 2007 development start-date leaking through the screen

This. Well said.

Looks something between Vanguard and Age of Conan. Quality is of course better than those but not nearly enough as one would expect both by an Elder Scrolls and a 2013 game. Very, very underwhelming. I must say, as much as I wasn't believing in this game, this is much less than the "very little" I was already expecting.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 04:41:11 PM by Falconeer »

Fordel
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Reply #1150 on: April 14, 2013, 04:50:51 PM

Two things bother me about that video. One thing was whoever was "playing" the game was so horrible at it, they managed not only to die twice within starting, but they also refused to stop clicking through the quests. If you're showing gameplay, show at least one full voiced character without cutting them off. Total dumbass.



I've never seen any MMO preview/leak video with the player being actually good at the game. Like ever. I really don't understand it either.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Mattemeo
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Reply #1151 on: April 14, 2013, 04:56:32 PM

i don't think they're trying to be good at the game, I thnk they're attempting to show as much in a small timeframe as possible. So stuff like initiating combat, random aggro, death etc is really just demonstrating what the system has in place for these inevitablities. Nobody actually plays MMOs like the guy in the video.

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Venkman
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Reply #1152 on: April 14, 2013, 05:07:06 PM

All links dead. From the screencaps of it though, that looks exactly like the demo from PAX East. Not surprising little in the way of style and UI has changed in the last few weeks smiley
Malakili
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Reply #1153 on: April 14, 2013, 05:25:03 PM

All links dead. From the screencaps of it though, that looks exactly like the demo from PAX East. Not surprising little in the way of style and UI has changed in the last few weeks smiley

Just pick your fantasy MMO of choice, put its name into youtube, watch a video of someone playing it for a while and then you've basically seen it.
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Reply #1154 on: April 14, 2013, 05:27:39 PM

I can pretty much promise anyone who wishes they'd caught the footage while it was up has only missed someone wandering boredly around the dullest acre of MMO real estate seen since 2002 and getting beaten up by wolves and mudcrabs. It's probably outrageously ungracious to dismiss the game from this leak alone but it really hasn't done Zenimax any favours; both that it's so utterly uninteresting and how desperate they've been to pull it speaks volumes.

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