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Author Topic: The Elder Scrolls Online  (Read 755862 times)
eldaec
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Reply #770 on: November 19, 2012, 01:37:39 PM

I agree that boss fights are a different story. Sadly, they are like what, 5% of the whole experience for even the most dedicated players?

That is fair. If the motion before the house is 'MMOG style hotbar combat post 2004 has been over simplified and does not adequately explore the potential of the genre' then I'm with you.

But I see this as an argument for better hot bars, not for reverting to Diablo style button mashing.

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Ingmar
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Reply #771 on: November 19, 2012, 01:39:00 PM

It does seem extraordinary odd to me that the people who prefer games with 8 or 10 buttons think they are the ones arguing for tactical complexity.

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Mrbloodworth
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Reply #772 on: November 19, 2012, 02:11:13 PM

Waite, Diablo has good combat now?

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satael
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Reply #773 on: November 19, 2012, 02:15:25 PM

It does seem extraordinary odd to me that the people who prefer games with 8 or 10 buttons think they are the ones arguing for tactical complexity.

It does seem extraordinary odd to me that people think the number of buttons are so important for tactical complexity.
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Reply #774 on: November 19, 2012, 02:16:46 PM

I just want to hit things in the face. I don't want to politely tap them in place until they fall over.

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Kail
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Reply #775 on: November 19, 2012, 02:20:39 PM

It does seem extraordinary odd to me that the people who prefer games with 8 or 10 buttons think they are the ones arguing for tactical complexity.

Did I fall in to the sarchasm here, or do I seriously need to explain why "more buttons = tactical depth" is an incredibly poor argument to make?
Malakili
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Reply #776 on: November 19, 2012, 03:10:33 PM

When I think of engaging combat in games, I think of Team Fortress, Counter Strike, Starcraft 2, Quake 3, Unreal Tournament, Tribes.   I'd go as far as to say I've never played an RPG with really engaging combat.  When I've played RPGs (MMO or not) it has basically never been because I just couldn't get enough of the combat.  I like the pausable pseudo turn based stuff in the early Bioware titles, but then you are controlling an entire party - something that never happens in an MMO.  It is because I like the game setting, or Role Playing, and so forth.  But those are the very things which have become less and less represented in the genre, which I think accounts for my decline in caring about CRPGs in general.  Seeing as they seem to be largely moving away from those things anyway, they are going to have to change the combat to something I actually like to get me to play them.

All of the games I mentioned have a few things in common:

1) High Speed - by this I mean literally high speed.  Things happen quickly, and often.  MMORPGs tend to have a relatively slow pace.

2) Lots of decision making - Quick, precise, good decision making matters in all of those games.  The games are dynamic and contingent enough that you have to have a strong base skill set which allows you to make good decisions which arise in the moment, rather than knowing the ideal thing to do beforehand. (Starcraft 2 has a concept of builds, which are probably an exception here, but builds are in no way at the expensive of a good understanding of the game which allows you to make good decisions in the context of a particular game).

3) Low margin for error - make a mistake, and you are hosed, and probably hosed immediately.  I would include in this the ability to make mistakes.  It is basically impossible to make mistakes in most MMO combat.  The limitation for most MMO combat is knowledge, but after you've "figured it out" most MMO combat becomes a bore to me.

4) Movement - This matters a lot in games where combat is engaging to me, Rocket Jumping in Quake, Blink Micro in Starcraft, strafe jumping in Counter Strike.  GW2 did ok with this with the dodge mechanic, which was my favorite part of the combat by a wide margin.


None of this has to do with hotkeys, or crosshairs, or binding things to the mouse.  It is generally less about what my hands are doing and more about what my brain is doing.  Number of key presses has nothing to do with it frankly.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 03:15:56 PM by Malakili »
ajax34i
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Reply #777 on: November 19, 2012, 07:15:17 PM

How hosed are you, though?  Lost xp hosed?  Need to corpse-run hosed?  Need to break into another plane naked to get your corpse back hosed?

I think the limitation for MMO combat is cat-herding; you can definitely have it "figured out", but try to get your group or raid to actually do what they know they're supposed to do, it's not easy.  And knowledge is definitely not the limitation.

BTW, you started with talking about (solo) RPG's vs. your games, but your four points are about MMO's, where all the organizing and cooperating and other people do affect the combat.
Kageru
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Reply #778 on: November 19, 2012, 09:12:46 PM


I think an MMO should play like a FPS.

... logs into a laggy GW2 event with high latency to do a precision jumping puzzle.

Yeah, maybe not.

A game focused on playing with other people gains a lot from a slower and more tactical combat system where you have time to integrate your actions with the actions of others, communicate with them as you go and deal with latency. EQ was a superior social environment at least partly because the action was slower and that encouraged communication. Whereas twitchy console-inspired games like DCUO rapidly prove to be shallow.

Now a large scale shooter, a battlefield or planetside, I can see. But the general response in practice is it's too hard to get to the action, it's all about the zerg and getting rolled and it's not as tight as a set teams, set time FPS like, "Team Fortress, Counter Strike, Starcraft 2, Quake 3, Unreal Tournament, Tribes".

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Margalis
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Reply #779 on: November 20, 2012, 12:40:24 AM

An advantage of actiony combat is that it can feel satisfying even without much depth. It's fun to whack things in real time, knock dudes up into the air, headshot people, etc.

Measured combat is really only fun when the combat has some difficulty or strategy.

I think FFXI is a good example of doing this right and wrong. When FFXI came out the best way to get XP was to group up and fight against IT++ enemies - very hard enemies. ("Impossibly tough") These enemies could actually kill you, and if you got an add or something you had to play pretty well to live. And these were normal enemies, not bosses. It wasn't rocket science but people can and would die to them. Even if you were fighting weaker enemies they often spawned around IT++ enemies that could come out of nowhere and shiv you. (Goblins!)

Years later the best way to gain XP was to burn through VT enemies that spawned near other VT enemies. It's basically impossible for a group to die to VT enemies even with an add - or even for a single member to die. Because enemies die so fast using mana on them for helpful debuffs is actually counter-productive. People also stopped using skill chains because enemies were so weak it was better to use abilities as soon as they were available instead of doing them in tandem.

So by tweaking the difficulty (actually just the XP formula) the game completely changed in terms of strategy - going from at least some to essentially none.

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Reply #780 on: November 20, 2012, 12:45:01 AM


I think an MMO should play like a FPS.

... logs into a laggy GW2 event with high latency to do a precision jumping puzzle.

That's not my experience with GW2 at all. I am sure there can be latency episodes, but I'd say the tecnology has been nailed by now. Planetside 2 is another good example (Also Tera, to stay closer).

eldaec
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Reply #781 on: November 20, 2012, 01:56:43 AM

My wife works there, the guys in charge of the realm vs realm design are the same guys who were responsible for DAoC.

Don't you dare tease me like this!

Didnt people say the same thing about War?


The difference is that on WAR an explicitly stated aim was to make rvr not fun like it was in doac.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2012, 01:59:16 AM by eldaec »

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Kageru
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Reply #782 on: November 20, 2012, 02:35:56 AM

That's not my experience with GW2 at all. I am sure there can be latency episodes, but I'd say the tecnology has been nailed by now. Planetside 2 is another good example (Also Tera, to stay closer).

Tera is only on sale in two regions globally for good reason. And even within those I doubt acceptable action game latency ping ( < 100) is universal.

An advantage of actiony combat is that it can feel satisfying even without much depth. It's fun to whack things in real time, knock dudes up into the air, headshot people, etc.

Not really, it's just as meaningless, though I do notice as long as console players can mash an action button and have a variety of animations fire they're happy. That was the logic behind champions online (mash auto attack, animation sequences) but it wasn't actually interesting in an MMO context. Partly because of latency and partly because the other half of most of these action games is having low hit point, highly variable behaviour, human opposition.

The TF2 bot mode bored me senseless very quickly.


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Malakili
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Reply #783 on: November 20, 2012, 06:42:52 AM

How hosed are you, though?  Lost xp hosed?  Need to corpse-run hosed?  Need to break into another plane naked to get your corpse back hosed?

I'm mainly talking dead. In most MMO combat (aside from raids or really tough instances) you can make huge mistakes and be fine.  This encourages me to not actually give a crap and do something like watch TV while playing, I just don't have to pay close attention.  This is pretty much the opposite of "engaging" combat.

Quote
I think the limitation for MMO combat is cat-herding; you can definitely have it "figured out", but try to get your group or raid to actually do what they know they're supposed to do, it's not easy.  And knowledge is definitely not the limitation.
For raiding, sure, but raids make this important by ramping up the difficulty.  And this is actually a good thing - solo or group.  It addresses the first point - you have to actually pay attention.

Quote
BTW, you started with talking about (solo) RPG's vs. your games, but your four points are about MMO's, where all the organizing and cooperating and other people do affect the combat.

I think it is perfectly fair lumping all RPGs in together more or less, the combat is generally the weakest point of all of them.



A game focused on playing with other people gains a lot from a slower and more tactical combat system where you have time to integrate your actions with the actions of others, communicate with them as you go and deal with latency. EQ was a superior social environment at least partly because the action was slower and that encouraged communication.


Counter Strike and Team Fortress have engaging combat and require team work  (at high levels of play).  Speed matters more when playing with strangers, but if you are playing with a group of people you know, teamplay isn't restricted by game speed.  Even team games of Starcraft 2 are fast paced and require lots of team work.  I don't see that this is a legitimate issue with fast paced combat.


Partly because of latency and partly because the other half of most of these action games is having low hit point, highly variable behaviour, human opposition.


This is also a big thing that I should have but failed to say.  A major part of what makes combat engaging is exactly this.  This is one of the reasons I liked Darkfall combat actually, despite how clunky it was.  The AI, while not brilliant, acted a lot more like a player.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2012, 06:57:56 AM by Malakili »
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Reply #784 on: November 20, 2012, 01:22:08 PM

"*I* don't like RPG combat, therefore they all fail."

Great argument.  Here's an equally great answer.  "*YOU* shouldn't play them"

See, I don't like Counter Strike or team fortress.  They're too fast for my shitty reaction, early arthritis and 40-year-old-man vision. Ergo they should all change to turn based systems because they suck being so twitchy and fast.

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Malakili
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Reply #785 on: November 20, 2012, 01:58:30 PM

"*I* don't like RPG combat, therefore they all fail."

Great argument.  Here's an equally great answer.  "*YOU* shouldn't play them"

See, I don't like Counter Strike or team fortress.  They're too fast for my shitty reaction, early arthritis and 40-year-old-man vision. Ergo they should all change to turn based systems because they suck being so twitchy and fast.

Um, we are arguing what we want to see in MMO combat systems/what is engaging combat to us.  This isn't some objective discussion, not sure why you're all upset about it.  As for your retort, you are exactly right, that is what I'm doing - not playing them. 
Margalis
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Reply #786 on: November 20, 2012, 07:24:14 PM

"*I* don't like RPG combat, therefore they all fail."

I like RPG combat when it's good. To me good RPG combat, if it is turn-based or slow-paced, means there is some sort of meaningful strategy / tactics / management aspect.

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Reply #787 on: November 21, 2012, 06:32:42 AM

You're all getting awfully vague now...good combat is good, bad combat is bad. Duh.

Personally I'd love an MMO with combat that starts of somewhere from Fallout 3/F:NV. I played them slightly modded (basically more damage all around - kill/die in 2/3 shots, not 10+) and it definitely was on the good side of the play-because/play-despite fence.

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Reply #788 on: November 21, 2012, 06:59:48 AM

To me, good combat in an MMO is:
  • A limited number of abilities so I don't have to learn to play a piano.  I really love MMOs that make you create a "decK" like COH or GW2.
  • Combat that is built on positioning and dodging.  I like GW2's hybrid system.  If you swing in one direction, you hit no matter your target.  I like TERAs system where you have to aim.  You don't need all of these but I enjoy combat where positioning and movement matter.

That's really it.  You can add all different layers of raid movement, combo systems with other players like LOTRO or FFXI, and it really doesn't matter to me to make it enjoyable.  The actual mechanics of using my keyboard and mouse and how they impact gameplay is what matters to me.
eldaec
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Reply #789 on: November 21, 2012, 07:30:33 AM

Have they announced which nerd-celebrity they are going to kill off in the tutorial yet?

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Falconeer
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Reply #790 on: November 21, 2012, 07:57:52 AM

Yeah, I think GW2 and The Secret World are a natural evolution of hotbar MMO combat in a much more dynamic direction, where positioning and dodging are becoming more meaningful, and spamming or whacking buttons is counter-poductive. This without becoming too dependant on reflexes and eye-hand precision.

They both only have 9 buttons max to press.
They both have active dodge.
They both have soft-targeting and can shoot/cast most of the stuff without a target, possibly wasting cooldowns.

Again, I do not think one kind of combat is superior to the other, although I obviously have my preference. I am just glad MMORPG developers are starting to make games with a more action-based combat after more than ten static years of cooldown-based monopoly (Exception: Age of Conan, 2008).

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Reply #791 on: November 21, 2012, 09:58:13 AM

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Falconeer
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Reply #792 on: November 21, 2012, 10:38:57 AM

I've been waiting for someone to mention AC for 20 pages now. What's really interesting here is to analyze why they scrapped positioning and dodging from MMORPG combat for ten years after that. The answer being: it didn't make EQ money, so they gathered from that that the RPG crowd wasn't caring about moving around as much as they cared about achieving. WoW proved (and sealed) the point.

Newer generations? I am pretty sure they will want their achievements to come from lots more action _in comparison_. Turn based games will never die, but I really think that slow paced hotbar based MMO combat is going to evolve into something faster and more dynamic across the board. Something the RPG audience was simply not ready for (and kind of hating) in 1999.

We had /face back then, dammit. Do any of you think something like that would be possible in a MMORPG coming out now? I know there's some out there (and here) that would still love to have the /face command, but you aren't gonna get it. And that's the slow but steady evolution I'm talking about.

My point being, there's a big audience for both kinds of combat in MMOPGs now. But that wasn't equally true ten years ago cause genres and their mechanics (and their players) were much more defined and separated.

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Reply #793 on: November 21, 2012, 02:54:39 PM

/face and /stick were big parts of DAOC - I'll be suprised if ESO doesn't have at least /face.

Also - the people who played the preview describe combat that sounds exactly what you (Falconeer) and Draegan describe...
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Reply #794 on: November 21, 2012, 04:38:55 PM

I'll be suprised if ESO doesn't have at least /face.

You can't be serious. I mean it, you can't be serious.

What I (and probably Draegan) described is the antithesis of /face. And yes I know it was in DAOC, and DAOC combat was nothing like what (they claim) they want to do in ESO. You really want this to be DAOC 2, but even if it were (and it's not) it wouldn't be the DAOC 2 you would make.

Seriously. How many people out there in the world in 2012 you think want a /face command for a PvP game (or even PvE)?
The best you can hope for is a "lock target" button if the thing turns very action-y, but that would make your DAOC 2 a console game. And something tells me that's not what you are dreaming about.

In fact, I think your dream is really impairing your objectivity here.

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Reply #795 on: November 21, 2012, 04:46:54 PM

I don't want /face, I want my attacks to hit regardless of facing. Because "jousting" is the most lame, low ping abusing, form of PvP ever invented.

Or in other words there's a gameplay reason why daoc had /face.

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Ingmar
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Reply #796 on: November 21, 2012, 05:48:32 PM

I don't want /face, I want my attacks to hit regardless of facing. Because "jousting" is the most lame, low ping abusing, form of PvP ever invented.

Or in other words there's a gameplay reason why daoc had /face.

This.

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Reply #797 on: November 22, 2012, 12:47:52 PM


I've been re-re-re-trying Tera these days, but it's the first time I'm doing it since GW2 came out. Most significant difference is that in GW2 you can't miss with ranged single target attacks (if you have nothing tab targeted your arrow/spell goes for the first available target), unless they are out of maximum range, while in Tera you literally have a crosshair and have to keep your enemy in it the whole time, with every single shot.



That's because you have the EZ-Mode hit closest target option on in gameplay options.
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Reply #798 on: November 22, 2012, 12:54:47 PM

I just want an MMO with mount and blade combat, why is that so hard!

I am the .00000001428%
koro
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Reply #799 on: November 22, 2012, 01:34:40 PM

Because even Mount & Blade has a hard time doing Mount & Blade combat online.
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Reply #800 on: November 22, 2012, 08:56:34 PM

All one needs is some negative ping code. It will solve all these problems, for sure.

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Reply #801 on: November 23, 2012, 10:32:50 AM

/face and /stick were big parts of DAOC - I'll be suprised if ESO doesn't have at least /face.

Also - the people who played the preview describe combat that sounds exactly what you (Falconeer) and Draegan describe...
/face and /stick were for people who got run off the Zeks in EQ for being terrible players.

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blackwulf
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Reply #802 on: November 23, 2012, 11:15:49 AM

/face and /stick were big parts of DAOC - I'll be suprised if ESO doesn't have at least /face.

Also - the people who played the preview describe combat that sounds exactly what you (Falconeer) and Draegan describe...
/face and /stick were for people who got run off the Zeks in EQ for being terrible players.

Now now, lets not start the epeen flexing.  Don't make me reinstall that game and /duel challenge you...
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Reply #803 on: November 23, 2012, 11:51:07 AM

Simply put, /face was for c-roleplayers, who at the time weren't that versed in real time combat after years of muds and turn-based things, and were not going to like an online RPG that put such a strong focus on reflexes and eye-hand coordination. Also, a crutch for the network limitations of year 2000.

I can't stress enough that there's room for any kind of playstyle. Hell, look at turn based and all the love it still gets (I love it myself). But do you really think Elder Scrolls Online is gonna have /face? Really? Wanna make a bet?

eldaec
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Reply #804 on: November 23, 2012, 03:16:40 PM

Kageru already explained the real issue behind face.

You can all stop strawmaning now.

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