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Author Topic: The Elder Scrolls Online  (Read 755898 times)
Malakili
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Reply #630 on: November 12, 2012, 10:29:25 AM

was kinda hoping to get some discussion going again about a game that I think is probably going to be the last of the really big budget MMOs (maybe not if they can pull it off.)

We are having a discussion - it's just that not one person here agrees with you about how abso-fucking-lutely great this video is and how it's going to revolutionize the MMO. You don't sound like someone having a discussion, you sound like someone proselytizing for a game that hasn't given one indication it will be any different than anything we've seen before and may actually be a step back considering it's been in development for five years.

You don't have to agree with us that this will suck, but you do have to at least provide SOMETHING of substance that leads you to believe it. 100 people look at that video and you are the only 1 who doesn't think it's at the very best boring, that problem ain't with the 99 or the house they choose to have a discussion in.

Let's just come out and say it.  Given that F13 is pretty community based, and that this guy hasn't been involved in it much aside from this thread, we all have the nagging feeling he is just trying to promote the game.  It probably isn't true, but its fairly well established around here that you can get away with a bit of crazy as long as you make an effort to be part of the community (I should know).  When new people come in and take part in a variety of discussions, there is more reason to think they are genuine. 

The fact that we are overly cynical here is kind of...well advertised.. but we always have a few "This is going to be great!" people for any given game. 
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Reply #631 on: November 12, 2012, 10:37:18 AM

Sure, the fact I never see blackwulf posting ANYWHERE but this thread, and all he posts is "I THINK ESO WILL BE TEH GREATEST EVAR!!!!" he sounds like a fucking mole. I don't think he is a mole, but reading posts that only knobslob a game for all the reasons anyone else experienced with MMOG's would say are the reasons you shouldn't trust it would be good gets really irritating.

Experienced MMO devs? NOT A PLUS. MMO devs are worse than government appointees for failing upwards before crashing and burning with someone else's money. MMO success is like the flaming crotchrot. Getting it is fun, but it'll eventually lead to the screaming wiggle death.

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Reply #632 on: November 12, 2012, 11:37:57 AM

Experience in a leadership role only matters if the experience was good. If you failed in a leadership role, that doesn't lead me to believe you can succeed in the next leadership role. People always try to spin failure as a learning experience, but that only goes so far. Success is also a learning experience. Guess which guy I want on my team?

If I want to boil it down even further, Matt Firor scares the hell out of me for this exact reason. He was involved in the design of DOAC vanilla, and in DAOC Shrouded Isles. The first opportunity he got as executive producer was Trials of Atlantis. That's absolutely the worst expansion I've played in a game. It tied Cataclysm as reasons I've quit an MMO.

Now he's the director of this game. I'm not shocked he left Mythic when it was purchased by EA, but he'd already done enough damage on DAOC that is was unsalvagable as a title.

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KallDrexx
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Reply #633 on: November 12, 2012, 11:56:36 AM

The lead designer for Fury is was still leading MMO developments after Fury went bankrupt  Ohhhhh, I see.
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Reply #634 on: November 12, 2012, 12:12:43 PM

I would probably have actually played Morrowind if it had tab-target hotbar combat.  tongue

The only TES game I actually really liked was Skyrim, and even there the combat is more tolerable than good. Mostly an exercise in getting to the point where I can one-shot stuff so I can do the interesting part of the game. So, it isn't correct to say that *nobody* would want traditional MMO combat in a TES game, because I exist.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

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Reply #635 on: November 12, 2012, 12:22:50 PM

But you are not an Elder Scrolls fan, Ingmar. Now that I think about it, you are probably the target audience. People who heard a lot about TES but never bothered to play because... it was TES. There's a huge untapped pool of non-TES players out there (probably larger than the TES players) that they want to suck in.

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Reply #636 on: November 12, 2012, 12:29:15 PM

Skyrim has the best combat of any TES game and it's still pretty mediocre at best (The combat, not the game itself). I'd be more for something like Tera or the <X> Souls games.

I'll likely buy this thing though and check out everything PVE until the endgame though. SWTOR was a disappointment at the end but getting there was pretty cool and I'll flat out say I had fun.

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Ingmar
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Reply #637 on: November 12, 2012, 12:34:13 PM

But you are not an Elder Scrolls fan, Ingmar. Now that I think about it, you are probably the target audience. People who heard a lot about TES but never bothered to play because... it was TES. There's a huge untapped pool of non-TES players out there (probably larger than the TES players) that they want to suck in.

I started Morrowind, played Oblivion and Skyrim all the way through, and I like the setting and the lore stuff quite a lot. I just never liked the games mechanically, especially the combat and skill system, until Skyrim. (It helps that Skyrim finally has character models that don't cause physical pain to look at...)

I think of myself as at least a fan of the setting, and I like the exploration aspects of the games a lot - just not the mechanics.

EDIT: In general though I do agree with the prospect that they're better off trying to hook their core people first. The thing about people like me who are MMO hotbar combat fans is there are already good games on the market that have that style that we're already playing and we will be hard to pull away.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 12:37:35 PM by Ingmar »

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Reply #638 on: November 12, 2012, 12:37:08 PM

I would probably have actually played Morrowind if it had tab-target hotbar combat.  tongue

The only TES game I actually really liked was Skyrim, and even there the combat is more tolerable than good. Mostly an exercise in getting to the point where I can one-shot stuff so I can do the interesting part of the game. So, it isn't correct to say that *nobody* would want traditional MMO combat in a TES game, because I exist.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
Pretty much this. I love the concept of the older TES games (huge open world, etc), but the actual combat has always been a let-down for me - even in Skyrim, which was actually sorta okay combat-wise. I loved the heck out of Fallout 3 and especially New Vegas though, so there's hope for Bethesda yet!

(yeah yeah I know, NV was Obsidian... but still)

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Reply #639 on: November 12, 2012, 12:39:39 PM

The real time clicky combat works much better with guns, yeah.

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Rendakor
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Reply #640 on: November 12, 2012, 01:12:46 PM

I consider myself a TES fan, but not because of the combat; a huge, explorable world and a skill-based rather than class-based advancement system are probably the two biggest draws for me. Given that TES:O has classes I'm probably not going to bother, since it goes against the spirit of the franchise to me.

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Reply #641 on: November 12, 2012, 02:59:52 PM

Sure, the fact I never see blackwulf posting ANYWHERE but this thread, and all he posts is "I THINK ESO WILL BE TEH GREATEST EVAR!!!!" he sounds like a fucking mole. I don't think he is a mole, but reading posts that only knobslob a game for all the reasons anyone else experienced with MMOG's would say are the reasons you shouldn't trust it would be good gets really irritating.

Experienced MMO devs? NOT A PLUS. MMO devs are worse than government appointees for failing upwards before crashing and burning with someone else's money. MMO success is like the flaming crotchrot. Getting it is fun, but it'll eventually lead to the screaming wiggle death.

The thread has been interesting today, and I don't want to bog it down with a bunch of shit about me, but since several of you have brought it up, here we go:  I pretty much have only posted in this thread because since I made my account, earlier this year, there hasn't been a lot in the MMO arena that is interesting to me.  I posted a bit in the Mechwarrior thread, but it doesn't seem to really be an MMO, and I don't wanna get into that kinda game atm.  I've lurked in many threads, but haven't had anything I considered interesting to add the conversation.  I passed on GW2, cause GW1 left a bad taste in my mouth, and I don't like the asian art style.  I passed on TERA because the candy coated theme park I experienced in the beta made me throw up a little.  I deleted SWTOR with pleasure after a month of sub, and now I'm back to playing old DDO off and on while I wait for the "next" MMO.  I guess mentally, I've decided the next one for me is going to be ESO.  However, I recently hear that "Everquest Next" is supposedly being completely revamped as a sandbox (!!) - if that's the case, I might start spending a lot more of my lurking and posting time on forums/threads about that game.

Haemish, I never have said anything quite like you quoted up above.  wink Granted I have high hopes for this game, but I've listed my reasons pretty clearly.  I'm not a mole, and I'm not a huge fan of anything, but I do consider myself a fan of Elder Scrolls - I remember my first time playing Arena and since then I've loved the series.  I have, however, hated the console "dumbing" down of the series.  I was also a huge fan of DAOC.  Hours spent online in DAOC probably equal hours spent in every other game combined.  When I heard many of the orginal DAOC devs were making this game in a Elder Scrolls world, of course I got excited.  I'm still optimistic.  We'll see how it turns out.

After reading the more constructive posts in this thread today, I'm finding that my disconnect with some of you stems from the fact that many of you were/are Elder Scrolls fans, but not necessarily DAOC fans.  Makes sense to me.  Hopefully they won't blow the game for people like you, but it sure is a possibility.  It seems like Matt is pretty set on the end game 3 way war being the focal point.  I'm glad about this, but can understand people not being too happy with it.
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Reply #642 on: November 12, 2012, 03:41:47 PM

I have no trust in former DAOC devs to deliver a better version of RVR than GW2 already has, personally.

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Bhazrak
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Reply #643 on: November 12, 2012, 03:44:26 PM

I get that they want to broaden their IP into the MMO market, seems to be the thing to do, but this just feels like every other MMO in the past decade with the TES logo slapped on it. I think it's going to end up in the same situation the big IP MMOs that took a leap into the genre in the past few years and I don't really want to see that happen. Thing is, I'm not sure how they could prevent that from happening anyway. Turning what's best about an Elder Scrolls title into an MMO experience already feels like several steps backwards.
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Reply #644 on: November 12, 2012, 03:58:57 PM

I have no trust in former DAOC devs to deliver a better version of RVR than GW2 already has, personally.
Is that praise for GW2 from Ingmar? <faints>

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Reply #645 on: November 12, 2012, 04:17:40 PM

I'm... one of those broken people who actually likes the combat in TES games. Yes, even in Daggerfall and Morrowind. Skyrim kind of soured on me after the honeymoon wore off, but I imagine I'll go back to it after all of its shitty DLC is out. Morrowind's one of those games I can always pick up and play whenever, like Baldur's Gate or the old Mega Man games. It's comfort food for me now.
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Reply #646 on: November 12, 2012, 04:26:23 PM

You're not broken. There are several people like us who enjoy the combat in TES games. I'm not a huge fan of the stupid miss mechanic in Morrowind, but the rest of them have been fine by me. Then again, I don't fling spells and I don't shoot arrows. I hit things in the face with a large object.

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Ingmar
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Reply #647 on: November 12, 2012, 04:47:36 PM

I have no trust in former DAOC devs to deliver a better version of RVR than GW2 already has, personally.
Is that praise for GW2 from Ingmar? <faints>

tongue

Sure! I like all the parts that aren't shitty!  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

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Malakili
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Reply #648 on: November 12, 2012, 05:15:51 PM

I don't mind the combat in TES games, but it certainly isn't the reason I play them.  I like the freedom and the fact that I don't have to do the main storyline to see the whole game (or most of it).  But frankly, even with the best of intentions, the game just won't be the same when you've got 30 people strafe jumping around town.
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Reply #649 on: November 12, 2012, 10:05:30 PM

Still waiting on my Betrayal at Krondor MMO.
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Reply #650 on: November 13, 2012, 02:21:10 AM

I should be more interested in this than I am.

It has the correct number of realms, also rvr.

The retrofitted player aim sounds like a terrible idea. Someone should make a thread about how they did that in swg.

The big problem might be the elder scrolls franchise. Which I associate with the colours grey and brown, and with micromanaging my inventory of turnips.

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Reply #651 on: November 13, 2012, 03:38:35 AM

You're not broken. There are several people like us who enjoy the combat in TES games. I'm not a huge fan of the stupid miss mechanic in Morrowind, but the rest of them have been fine by me. Then again, I don't fling spells and I don't shoot arrows. I hit things in the face with a large object.

Always remember, Ingmar's broken.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Wait wait wait; hotbar combat is boring and bad and should be banished but Morrowind's "Stand in front of the enemy, click until finger breaks off" combat is okay?

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Mrbloodworth
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Reply #652 on: November 13, 2012, 06:29:22 AM

Have you played Skyrim?

Skyrim combat is infinity better then any standard tab target system. It also removed the need to kill 10 rats, because the combat is much more engaging then standard MMO combat. Kill 10 rats is a symptom of the boring ass MMO combat where they need to pile on the numbers of goals to make it seem like you accomplished something.

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Paelos
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Reply #653 on: November 13, 2012, 06:58:03 AM

You're not broken. There are several people like us who enjoy the combat in TES games. I'm not a huge fan of the stupid miss mechanic in Morrowind, but the rest of them have been fine by me. Then again, I don't fling spells and I don't shoot arrows. I hit things in the face with a large object.

Always remember, Ingmar's broken.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Wait wait wait; hotbar combat is boring and bad and should be banished but Morrowind's "Stand in front of the enemy, click until finger breaks off" combat is okay?

What did I just say in that quote about Morrowind's miss mechanic? Honestly. I worry about you at times.

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Reply #654 on: November 13, 2012, 07:14:29 AM

You're not broken. There are several people like us who enjoy the combat in TES games. I'm not a huge fan of the stupid miss mechanic in Morrowind, but the rest of them have been fine by me. Then again, I don't fling spells and I don't shoot arrows. I hit things in the face with a large object.

Always remember, Ingmar's broken.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Wait wait wait; hotbar combat is boring and bad and should be banished but Morrowind's "Stand in front of the enemy, click until finger breaks off" combat is okay?

What did I just say in that quote about Morrowind's miss mechanic? Honestly. I worry about you at times.
Uh, you still just plant in front of an enemy and click your attack button until the enemy dies. Dice-roll hits or not, it's still the least engaging combat system ever.

Skyrim's combat is about as engaging. Except sometimes you sidestep magic or arrows. And you can click longer for a hard attack and not as long for a quick one. And while you don't miss by dice rolls, enemies that are tough just take almost no damage which may as well be the same thing. I'm just saying no TES game has had what I would call a "good" combat system despite me liking the series a whole lot.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 07:18:36 AM by Fabricated »

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Paelos
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Reply #655 on: November 13, 2012, 07:26:05 AM

No, the least engaging combat system is one that attacks for you while you occasionally click a number.

Look TES is no Mount and Blade, but it's a step up from the standard RPG crap system from two decades ago. Some people love that shit and want to get in a time machine. I do not.

With each iteration of the TES series, the combat has improved. This online version would be the first step back IF it's not done the way we've suggested.

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Mrbloodworth
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Reply #656 on: November 13, 2012, 08:22:49 AM

I'm my range of combat. There is: MMO TAB target ------------ Eldar scrolls -------------------Mount and blade.

MMO combat creates situation where its not about the encounter or over coming it, its about an endurance battle with yourself. This leads to the boring questing we see. After 10 years for me personally, im mostly done. Elder scrolls combat creates a new type of questing, where the battle is the challenge, not the amount you need to kill or collect. Its an active combat system that good enough as a next evolution. Mount and Blade style combat would be even better, as each battle is more dangerous, even if you are "low level", levels, another symptom of MMO combat, but i digress.

Mount and blade style combat i think would be a hard sell, as awesome as it is, it really does take time to master. It would turn off many users instantly. Skyim style is the best of both worlds IMO.

There has been a real push for a bit now to moving to a more visceral, action based systems in online games. Shooters being the current most prevalent, but we see soft targeting with games like AOC and that other asian one, games like Vindicious and others. This is a trend I hope continues.

That being said, nothing about this combat system seems fitting for an elder scrolls game, it seems watered down to convert the Wow player. Another things that's a trend I really think is the future, is the voice overs. We see this more and more, failed or not. To keep up with the experiences of single player games, and the short on reading trend of most gamers, any new game needs to really consider doing it.

Does TESO have voice overs like its single player predecessors, or with it be an even shorter than wow's 250 limit to align with attention spans? IF its not voiced over, I feel they are doing it wrong. In The Elder Scrolls, reading is for the books, not the quests.

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Ingmar
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Reply #657 on: November 13, 2012, 11:20:44 AM

Skyrim combat is infinity better then any standard tab target system. It also removed the need to kill 10 rats, because the combat is much more engaging then standard MMO combat. Kill 10 rats is a symptom of the boring ass MMO combat where they need to pile on the numbers of goals to make it seem like you accomplished something.

OK are you just making shit up now? Because if your contention is that the TES games don't have their share of boring MMO style quests, you're just plain wrong. BRB gathering 25 crimson nirnroot.  Ohhhhh, I see.

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Mrbloodworth
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Reply #658 on: November 13, 2012, 11:42:51 AM

I can safely ignore those, and have fun combat that is about the encounter, not the numbers. MMO combat means that's all you get. Perhaps I am not explaining something clearly. But your comment does not invalidate anything I have said.

Its the difference of the quest being the fun, not just the reward because the combat is face-roll. I also do not recall stabbing a ninroot.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 11:44:56 AM by Mrbloodworth »

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Reply #659 on: November 13, 2012, 11:50:28 AM

I just don't really see a fundamental difference between the 'go here, kill 1 guy' quests that Skyrim is rife with and 'go here, kill 10 guys'. I don't believe the combat system has anything to do with how quests are constructed, not in that way. And really, if anything, the randomly generated radiant quests are less interesting than crafted quests with a purpose, from an immersion perspective.

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Mrbloodworth
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Reply #660 on: November 13, 2012, 11:55:05 AM

Because the entire encounter is more engaging, and that's just the fight. 

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Malakili
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Reply #661 on: November 13, 2012, 11:58:00 AM

I just don't really see a fundamental difference between the 'go here, kill 1 guy' quests that Skyrim is rife with and 'go here, kill 10 guys'. I don't believe the combat system has anything to do with how quests are constructed, not in that way. And really, if anything, the randomly generated radiant quests are less interesting than crafted quests with a purpose, from an immersion perspective.

I think his argument is that he enjoys Skyrim's gameplay more, and that therefore the quests act just as a pointer towards a place where there is fun gameplay, rather than completing the quest for its own sake (i.e. the contrived reason it is there to begin with, xp/loot) being the gameplay...  I'm not 100% sure I've interpreted it right.

I mean, this is what quests were originally meant to be right?  Pointers towards interesting stuff so that players didn't have to wander around for hours to find interesting bits in the game world, or alternatively sit on the one good farming spot because it was ideal for exp farming.  But modern questing has gone past that either way to being the goal in and of itself.  Completing arbitrary tasks has basically become the name of the game in MMOs.  It isn't about DOING them, it is about COMPLETING, them.  I think Bloodworth is saying in Skyrim it feels more about doing them.
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Reply #662 on: November 13, 2012, 12:09:23 PM

Counterpoints: [player created] missions in COH, IAs / rifts / dynamic quests / invasions in Rift, DE chains in GW2. I'm sure there are many more examples. "Hotkey combat" isn't associated with kill-10-rats and vice versa.

To some people (me included), having access to 20 or so different abilities I can use strategically (and yes, with good timing / movement) is more engaging and fun than flailing around with a sword and failing to hit something in front of me because I have 400 ping. In other news, different people like different things. awesome, for real

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Reply #663 on: November 13, 2012, 12:43:12 PM

Your right. Public quests are just a bunch of people who happen to be in the same spot. Thats only compelling, because its better than standard MMO quests. Nothing more. You get a reward for showing up, or passing through. Not what I would call a solution.

I think Bloodworth is saying in Skyrim it feels more about doing them.

Mostly correct. But I tie it to the combat. The combat itself is the "game", you have to sneak up, shoot, or manage the battle ETC... One dude in Skyrim is harder than 20 rats in a typical MMO in terms of challenge, or even fun. I do not mean challenge as in having all the right gear, but in having good control over strikes and such. Its more compelling, challenging. The encounter is more interactive, you do not need to add in the requirement of lots of kills of one type, or random numbers of legs on boars. Ninroot is a collection quest. Its an exception, not the rule. Where MMO combat makes every quest a Ninroot quest. ad nauseum.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 12:50:14 PM by Mrbloodworth »

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Reply #664 on: November 13, 2012, 12:46:10 PM

It's not necessarily about the fact you can like tab-target combat. The point is that it's been done to fucking death, and it's failed in every single attempt to capture a major audience after WoW.

That's why if TES goes standard combat tab-target in a fantasy world with 3 factions, they are doomed. Not because it's a bad idea, or because people don't like that particular style, it's because people are absolutely bored of it even if they don't want to admit it out loud. They won't stick around in massive numbers to support a monthly sub. On top of that, a F2P title doesn't really generate the revenue necessary to make this a great plan for a well-known studio, when the alternative is to dump assets into another TES Single player game in Hammerfel.

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