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Author Topic: The Elder Scrolls Online  (Read 755885 times)
Phred
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Reply #455 on: June 07, 2012, 05:58:36 PM

Does this still have hot-bar combat?

Can you be more specific or name a game that doesn't have hot bar combat?



SKYRIM

Right. Cause favorites are far superior.


ashrik
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Reply #456 on: June 07, 2012, 06:24:53 PM

Well it's at least interesting that multiple sources have said that the combat is somewhere between TERA and GuildWars2, GW2 itself being between TERA and WoW. So, hey, that's 1 thing!
blackwulf
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Reply #457 on: June 07, 2012, 09:35:33 PM

Lot of interviews from E3 - but this one is actually with Matt Firor.  I found it informative - his answers are more direct than Sage's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=CDnR3e_zs7I
Nija
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Reply #458 on: June 07, 2012, 09:57:58 PM

Right. Cause favorites are far superior.

Aiming a bow is far superior than hitting ` or possibly 2.
Cyrrex
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Reply #459 on: June 07, 2012, 10:51:37 PM

Right. Cause favorites are far superior.

Aiming a bow is far superior than hitting ` or possibly 2.

Or even pressing 3 and then making sure the dude is in front of my before I set him on fire.  All of these things are, while possibly not brilliant, more fun that hot bar combat.  Favorites just switch the weapon (and I can use any fucking goddamn weapon I want).  Another thing about Skyrim combat?  No rotation for me.  I have no set pattern for how I attack, ever.  Totally spontaneous.  Cooldowns are a virtual non-factor.  I can skill up in anything I want to, just by doing it.  I can pick up anything in the environment, because who knows if that broken elf cranium might be worth something.

TESO will lack almost all of these things, PLUS it will look like ass in comparison.  It also won't let me break into people's houses and steal all the shit/murder the occupants.  I won't be able to use any cool mods, or mods that otherwise fix stupid issues.

In short, this game will have nothing to do with any other TES games other than the lore.  And guess what?  Fuck TES lore, that's what.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Mrbloodworth
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Reply #460 on: June 08, 2012, 06:37:09 AM

Does this still have hot-bar combat?

Can you be more specific or name a game that doesn't have hot bar combat?



The Elder Scrolls series.

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Draegan
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Reply #461 on: June 08, 2012, 07:55:04 AM

Lot of interviews from E3 - but this one is actually with Matt Firor.  I found it informative - his answers are more direct than Sage's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=CDnR3e_zs7I

Good ole Pokket. Too many generic questions in that interview though.  But I did like the tidbit on warriors picking up a healing staff to heal.

I don't know, the gaming press seems pretty warm on the game to me

http://www.gamesradar.com/elder-scrolls-online-preview-just-another-mmo/

I'm ok with a game that is attempting to refine the public quest or event stuff that GW2 is attempting.  If this game is actually somewhere between tera and gw2 I will also be interested in this game.  As long as it's engaging and not WOW/RIFT/TSW ish.  I'm more interested in the game than I was initially.  The devs needs to stop talking about lore, world, quests and levels and start focusing on action combat, 3 factions and event questing.

Stop giving us Heroic Dungeons!  Lore!  Objects you can click to read story!  Achievements!  It's like a car salesman bragging about having anti-lock breaks and seat belts.

Also: $20 says they don't launch with a LFD feature and say it's about community, then attempt to launch one after.. maybe.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 08:03:04 AM by Draegan »
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Reply #462 on: June 08, 2012, 07:57:05 AM

I know that everyone here loathes hotbar combat but if you think that the combat in any Elder Scrolls game was great, lol.

Yeah, clicking the left mousebutton over and over on the mans until he fell down was interesting and dynamic or something.

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Draegan
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Reply #463 on: June 08, 2012, 08:04:35 AM

I know that everyone here loathes hotbar combat but if you think that the combat in any Elder Scrolls game was great, lol.

Yeah, clicking the left mousebutton over and over on the mans until he fell down was interesting and dynamic or something.

You just described every single FPS game ever.
Phred
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Reply #464 on: June 08, 2012, 08:09:43 AM

I know that everyone here loathes hotbar combat but if you think that the combat in any Elder Scrolls game was great, lol.

Yeah, clicking the left mousebutton over and over on the mans until he fell down was interesting and dynamic or something.

You just described every single  game ever.

FYP.
zabuni
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Reply #465 on: June 08, 2012, 08:11:27 AM

Sorry to reply late, but those giant advertisements on the buildings make a little more sense if you know where they are. That's a hotel right outside the Los Angeles Convention Center, and they usually put a poster for some game at every E3. A few years ago it was Final Fantasy 13.

http://www.videogamesblogger.com/2009/05/26/gigantic-final-fantasy-xiii-posters-confirms-2010-us-launch.htm

Still, it's a bit much so early on.
Lucas
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Reply #466 on: June 08, 2012, 08:35:35 AM

Sorry to reply late, but those giant advertisements on the buildings make a little more sense if you know where they are. That's a hotel right outside the Los Angeles Convention Center, and they usually put a poster for some game at every E3. A few years ago it was Final Fantasy 13.

http://www.videogamesblogger.com/2009/05/26/gigantic-final-fantasy-xiii-posters-confirms-2010-us-launch.htm

Still, it's a bit much so early on.

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Paelos
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Reply #467 on: June 08, 2012, 09:48:02 AM

I know that everyone here loathes hotbar combat but if you think that the combat in any Elder Scrolls game was great, lol.

Yeah, clicking the left mousebutton over and over on the mans until he fell down was interesting and dynamic or something.

The best "combat" game I've played is probably Just Cause 2 and the endless parachutes.

Skyrim wasn't bad though, and it's 10x as engaging as anything I've ever seen with a hotbar. I want you to think back to the very first time you played an MMO. Do you remember that first horrible realization when you realize that you couldn't attack anything? That you had to autoattack and push buttons? I remember that exact feeling on DAOC when I loaded it up for the first time. I was very disappointing, but you overlook it for a while to see what it's about.

We've overlooked that reaction for 10 years now. Enough is enough.

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Sky
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Reply #468 on: June 08, 2012, 09:51:49 AM

Just popping in to point out the issue isn't hotbar combat so much as tab target.

Hotbars are a nice way to have a variety of combat abilities at your fingertips on the pc. Having to select a target to use them seems to be more the issue.
Speedy Cerviche
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Reply #469 on: June 08, 2012, 09:59:04 AM

I know that everyone here loathes hotbar combat but if you think that the combat in any Elder Scrolls game was great, lol.

Yeah, clicking the left mousebutton over and over on the mans until he fell down was interesting and dynamic or something.

You just described every single FPS game ever.

Mount & Blade?

Why isn't someone making a MMO clone of it? It's just screaming for it,
Threash
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Reply #470 on: June 08, 2012, 10:03:26 AM

I know that everyone here loathes hotbar combat but if you think that the combat in any Elder Scrolls game was great, lol.

Yeah, clicking the left mousebutton over and over on the mans until he fell down was interesting and dynamic or something.

You just described every single FPS game ever.

Mount & Blade?

Why isn't someone making a MMO clone of it? It's just screaming for it,

Cause it doesn't have 12 million subscribers.

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Murgos
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Reply #471 on: June 08, 2012, 10:10:28 AM

I want you to think back to the very first time you played an MMO. Do you remember that first horrible realization when you realize that you couldn't attack anything? That you had to autoattack and push buttons?

The first MMO I ever played was UO.  Just pointing out that even not having hot bars/auto attack doesn't mean your combat it good.

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blackwulf
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Reply #472 on: June 08, 2012, 10:42:52 AM

Do you remember that first horrible realization when you realize that you couldn't attack anything? That you had to autoattack and push buttons? I remember that exact feeling on DAOC when I loaded it up for the first time.

I don't remember ever feeling this way.  I was never a big FPS guy, though - maybe that's why?  I remember accidentally attacking a guard in EQ, lol - talk about a horrible realization.  DAOC, as I remember it, was very visceral, also; you could literally sprint up to an enemy and execute a combat style (even positional - IE backstab where you had to be actually at his back) in real time - I really don't get your gripe.  As Sky pointed out, your complaint would make more sense if you were mad about having to lock a target, rather than having to use hotbars...
Draegan
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Reply #473 on: June 08, 2012, 11:09:43 AM

Just popping in to point out the issue isn't hotbar combat so much as tab target.

Hotbars are a nice way to have a variety of combat abilities at your fingertips on the pc. Having to select a target to use them seems to be more the issue.

Good point.
Rokal
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Reply #474 on: June 08, 2012, 11:59:31 AM

Just popping in to point out the issue isn't hotbar combat so much as tab target.

Hotbars are a nice way to have a variety of combat abilities at your fingertips on the pc. Having to select a target to use them seems to be more the issue.

This. I like TERAs combat which is also technically hotbar combat. Even something like an FPS is really hotbar combat, where you're pressing 1-6 hotkeys to select abilities (weapons, grenades) to use. The difference is in the targeting. "Hot bar combat" isn't a great way to describe what I don't like about current MMO combat, but I don't think "tab-target combat" is especially clear either.
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Reply #475 on: June 08, 2012, 12:00:56 PM

I dislike combat where your skills are on a hotbar, you have to lock on target things or tab target, and the phrase "Global Cooldown" is used.

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Draegan
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Reply #476 on: June 08, 2012, 12:10:57 PM

Everything has a global cooldown, in every game.
Rendakor
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Reply #477 on: June 08, 2012, 06:47:23 PM

I want you to think back to the very first time you played an MMO. Do you remember that first horrible realization when you realize that you couldn't attack anything? That you had to autoattack and push buttons? I remember that exact feeling on DAOC when I loaded it up for the first time. I was very disappointing, but you overlook it for a while to see what it's about.

We've overlooked that reaction for 10 years now. Enough is enough.
I come from a MUD background, where most of current-MMO combat mechanics have their roots. Auto-attack was a mechanism to show that your character could attack faster than you personally could type the word "attack", and the concept of a GCD was there for largely the same reason: to ensure fights didn't come down purely to who had the better combination of typing speed (or macro use) and internet connection. When I made the transition to MMOs the combat system wasn't some crazy huge shock. In fact as someone who likes turn-based RPGs the combat is pretty familiar. You don't click Fire2 and aim like an FPS in a Final Fantasy game, so I don't see why I should have to in an MMORPG. The general trend of making MMOs less RPG and more God of War is not really one I'm a fan of, particularly since I don't feel action games play well with kb+m (but I don't want to use a controller for gameplay then a kb+m for chatting, menus, etc. because it just feels clunky).

Now, that's just about MMOs in general; putting WoW-style combat (which I'm generally a fan of) into an Elder Scrolls game is pretty fucking stupid, just because it's a really strong departure from the franchise. I'd forgive them that if the game was skill-based instead of class based, but...

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Ingmar
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Reply #478 on: June 08, 2012, 08:03:35 PM

Do you remember that first horrible realization when you realize that you couldn't attack anything? That you had to autoattack and push buttons? I remember that exact feeling on DAOC when I loaded it up for the first time.

I don't remember ever feeling this way.  I was never a big FPS guy, though - maybe that's why?  I remember accidentally attacking a guard in EQ, lol - talk about a horrible realization.  DAOC, as I remember it, was very visceral, also; you could literally sprint up to an enemy and execute a combat style (even positional - IE backstab where you had to be actually at his back) in real time - I really don't get your gripe.  As Sky pointed out, your complaint would make more sense if you were mad about having to lock a target, rather than having to use hotbars...

I never felt like that either. Arcade combat always feels like a step back to me.

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Fordel
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Reply #479 on: June 08, 2012, 08:13:31 PM

What threw me off about playing DaoC for the first time was the idea of Target Lock. Every other game I played let me swing/shoot whatever I was aiming at, even the games that had actual Target Locking mechanics like Mechwarrior 2.


The hotbar itself was a non-issue. The issue with hotbar combat is when you end up with 7 of them  why so serious?

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Reply #480 on: June 08, 2012, 08:24:35 PM

Target Locking* (I do not like this term) is in almost all RPGs. You say "I shoot magic missile at the goblin" not "I shoot magic missile north" and hope it hits something. It's like a staple of RPGs, and I don't really see how it could come as a shock to anyone who played single player RPGs before getting into MMOs.

*Did DaoC have some weird system that only let you attack one thing at a time, or was it like WoW where you changed targets by clicking on a new mob? I've never played it but if it's the former than I rescind my original statement.

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Reply #481 on: June 08, 2012, 08:28:57 PM

You could change targets, yes. And I agree with you on the targeting thing. One of the reasons I play RPGs is specifically because I want a layer of abstraction between my character and me. I want to tell my character, 'attack that guy', not aim at him manually. Skyrim and FO3/NV are good games but I don't enjoy them because of the combat, I'd be just as happy if not happier with them if they had MMO hotbar/targetlock combat (sacrilege, I know.) M&B is the only one I've played where I feel like the different combat actually adds anything really.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 08:30:43 PM by Ingmar »

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Fordel
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Reply #482 on: June 08, 2012, 08:30:48 PM

It was like WoW.


Every other RPG I had played was essentially turn based, so the idea of selecting a target made sense in that context. MMO's despite their best efforts at times, are not.

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Reply #483 on: June 08, 2012, 08:39:39 PM

One of the reasons I play RPGs is specifically because I want a layer of abstraction between my character and me. I want to tell my character, 'attack that guy', not aim at him manually. Skyrim and FO3/NV are good games but I don't enjoy them because of the combat, I'd be just as happy if not happier with them if they had MMO hotbar/targetlock combat (sacrilege, I know.)

That's the difference (between people) it seems. I played WoW for a good 3 years and never felt there was anything 'wrong' with tab-target, but by now I am sick of it. Nowadays it feels gamey, stale and something that is kept out of tradition or inertia rather than being a mechanic which improves the game.


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Reply #484 on: June 08, 2012, 08:47:32 PM

A hotbar is different from a keyboard shortcut. The key point about a hotbar is that it is an actual bar, as in an onscreen UI element, usually because you have a million abilities and you need to actually look at the icons to see cooldowns.

Sure, in an FPS you can press 1-10 to swap weapons and sometimes this will make a bar appear but you don't need to be looking at the bar.

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Reply #485 on: June 08, 2012, 09:15:49 PM

I should have prefaced my DAOC reaction comment for people that didn't grow up on RPGs or tabletop games. I very much dislike the idea of turn-based RPG number combat because of the artificial rules and constraints.

Whereas I love the combat of Skyrim, Jedi Knight, and ME1 because they have RPG elements without the stoppage.

And yet, I should add, I feel exactly the reverse about strategy games. I can't stand real time strategy maps, but I love the turn-based models.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 09:20:17 PM by Paelos »

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Fordel
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Reply #486 on: June 08, 2012, 09:19:07 PM

It's only an issue when you end up with 7 bars though.

Like in Mechwarrior 2 (3456 and beyond), you would group your weapon systems into fire groups (which could then be fired individually, or all at once, or in any combination in between), each weapon type had its own cooldown/reload times, you had armor/damage sectors, heat management, your speed, possibly your jump jet management, this is all part of the game interface. It's really not that far removed from MMO hotbar combat in that regard.



and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Rokal
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Reply #487 on: June 08, 2012, 09:44:17 PM

A hotbar is different from a keyboard shortcut. The key point about a hotbar is that it is an actual bar, as in an onscreen UI element, usually because you have a million abilities and you need to actually look at the icons to see cooldowns.

Sure, in an FPS you can press 1-10 to swap weapons and sometimes this will make a bar appear but you don't need to be looking at the bar.

Plenty of FPS games (especially on consoles) have HUD elements with buttons to select weapons/abilities that do not fade. The hotbar itself isn't what makes MMO combat shitty.

You don't need to be looking at the bar in most MMOs either. Sure, some MMOs (SWTOR) you really need to be staring at the hotbar to see when abilities are ready to use, but it's not really the case for WoW especially with the default-UI power aura notifications. The combat is still pretty stale for me, and it has nothing to do with the bars.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 09:46:34 PM by Rokal »
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Reply #488 on: June 09, 2012, 06:01:19 AM

I think the problem is that a one armed man with 2 fingers can easily win at Tab123 combat.
Rendakor
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Reply #489 on: June 09, 2012, 08:34:31 AM

I should have prefaced my DAOC reaction comment for people that didn't grow up on RPGs or tabletop games. I very much dislike the idea of turn-based RPG number combat because of the artificial rules and constraints.

Whereas I love the combat of Skyrim, Jedi Knight, and ME1 because they have RPG elements without the stoppage.
My tastes are almost the complete opposite; I like Skyrim despite the combat, never played JK, and was too turned off by the fact that ME1 was a glorified FPS to make it more than halfway through. The VATS system largely saved Fallout 3/NV for me; without those I would be pretty awful and probably wouldn't have finished them either.

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