Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
September 20, 2021, 11:31:57 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Search:     Advanced search
*
Home Help Search Login Register
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  General Discussion  |  Topic: A warning from my sciatic nerve 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 Go Down Print
Author Topic: A warning from my sciatic nerve  (Read 27601 times)
apocrypha
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6711

Planes? Shit, I'm terrified to get in my car now!


on: September 15, 2008, 05:00:16 AM

I suspect that there's a lot of people on these boards who, like me, spend a lot of time sitting down in front of computers. If so then I'd like to heartily recommend paying some attention to your postures and your backs!

I've had lower back trouble for about 8 years, ever since I tripped over a doorstep carrying a small cabinet and fell and twisted. I've had a couple of incidents since then that have left me in some serious pain for a while, but 3 weeks ago I had a real bad one. Was having a bad night because of leg & back pains after a particularly physical week's work, got up to do some yoga stretches and *POP* my back went. Felt the disc pop out and thought "uh oh". Cutting a long story short there followed the 3 most intense days of my life racked with utter searing agony like I cannot describe.

Ibuprofen, paracetamol, diclofenac, codeine, tramadol and cannabis got me through that, along with my girlfriend who was just so awesome and amazing that words fail me. Now I'm waiting for an MRI scan and once we have the results of that we'll see what happens next. Pretty certain it's full-on sciatica (which is to say, one of my spinal discs protruding and pressing on the sciatic nerve, causing pain (PAIN), numbness, weakness in the back, buttock and leg), just hoping we can get it sorted without surgery.

Read some stuff (particularly a book by a guy called Robin McKenzie) in the last few weeks about this kind of thing and man, I wish I'd known some of this stuff years ago, I could have saved myself a boatload of pain. I really, seriously recommend everyone finds out about backs and how to sit, stand, lift, etc in ways that protect your lower back, because I wouldn't wish the last weeks I've had on anyone!

Anyway, that's why I'm not posting much anywhere anymore, I need to save my allowed computer time (like, 30 mins/day is all I can cope with atm) for more important stuff :p

"Bourgeois society stands at the crossroads, either transition to socialism or regression into barbarism" - Rosa Luxemburg, 1915.
Oban
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4662


Reply #1 on: September 15, 2008, 05:12:48 AM

What a useless post for this forum, the information is only relevant for those that have spines.

Palin 2012 : Let's go out with a bang!
apocrypha
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6711

Planes? Shit, I'm terrified to get in my car now!


Reply #2 on: September 15, 2008, 05:26:55 AM

What a useless post for this forum, the information is only relevant for those that have spines.

Haha shit, sorry, I should have searched for the vertebrate sub-forum :P

"Bourgeois society stands at the crossroads, either transition to socialism or regression into barbarism" - Rosa Luxemburg, 1915.
Bunk
Contributor
Posts: 5828

Operating Thetan One


Reply #3 on: September 15, 2008, 08:59:26 AM

I won't repost my whole sciatica story again, but just thought I'd wish you luck. I went through about 9 months of it and was lucky that it corrected itself without surgery. Three years later, and everything is good - I can even golf again.

"Welcome to the internet, pussy." - VDL
"I have retard strength." - Schild
Cyrrex
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10356


Reply #4 on: September 15, 2008, 09:03:49 AM

Quote
I need to save my allowed computer time (like, 30 mins/day is all I can cope with atm) for more important stuff

So what do you recommend for those of us that spend, say, half or more of their waking life sitting in front of a PC?  I'm pretty sure it's turning me into a blind, irritable ogre.

Ironically, I used to have constant (though minor) back pain that I thought was an obvious result of both bad posture and extended time in from of the computer.  After shedding 40 pounds and getting back into shape, I found that it was actually because I was a fat, lazy fuck.  I don't have a hint of pain anymore.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
bhodi
Moderator
Posts: 6817

No lie.


Reply #5 on: September 15, 2008, 09:54:28 AM

A friend of mine did the same thing; he bent down to pick up his dog and POP! 2 surgeries later he's still in occasional pain.

I fell off a wall while bouldering (climbing short walls without rope up to 10-15 feet) about two years ago. I landed badly in a twisting motion, and only noticed something was wrong a few hours later when I was really stiff while sitting in my computer chair.

I woke up the next morning unable to get out of bed - the muscles in the right side of my lower back had seized up and were pushing up against the nerves, leaving me unable to bend forward without excruciating pain. I was literally unable to sit up to get out of bed. I finally ended up being able to get out of bed only by rolling off it and catching myself on my knees and crawling to the bathroom where I stood under a hot shower until the water ran cold, trying to get the muscles to loosen. No luck.

The pain. Let me tell you about the pain. It was worse than when I broke my arm, it was worse than when I went over the handlebars of my bike without a shirt on and slid 15 feet down a drainage ditch. It was worse than getting your hand caught in a door. It was pretty much the worst pain that I've ever felt; the worst part of the worst pain in my life is that you've got no adrenaline to dull it; it's not like being hurt in sports or at the gym, it's pretty much just a white hot poker of fire that screams "STOP WHATEVER YOU WERE DOING, IDIOT", without almost any warning. You quickly learn to heed it, and even now after 2 years I'm getting remembrance pains just talking about it.

What makes back pain particularly horrible, though, is trying to avoid it and being unable to. Almost everything uses your lower back. Walking, for example, is leaning slightly forward and then putting your feet out to catch your controlled fall. Only I couldn't lean forward. Quickly, I learned to walk, but walk like an old man, perfectly straight and with small steps to keep my center of gravity over my feet. One small slip though, one bend too far forward, and I was on my knees in pain. It was pretty horrible. It got bad enough that in one instance, on my way to the bathroom, I leaned over too far and reflexively relaxed all my muscles and went to my knees to try and stop the pain, and of course, that overrode my bladder muscles. It wasn't pretty.

So I get to the doctor, and she asks "on a scale on one to ten about what level is the pain" and I say "I'd say probably an 8, or maybe a bit more". She mentions that it's one of the worst pains people can feel and that often people say that it is, in fact, an 11 out of 10. I wanted to leave room at the top - I figure there's always something worse. I hope that I never discover what that might be.

Anyway, am pretty soon riding high on the triple play of steroids, muscle relaxants, and pain killers. I sleep and lay on the couch for 3 days before the muscle in my back finally un-knots, and it takes me another two months of physical therapy before I can really climb again. Now I'm more careful.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2008, 09:57:48 AM by bhodi »
Ironwood
Terracotta Army
Posts: 28240


Reply #6 on: September 15, 2008, 10:53:58 AM

This thread is making me wince in sympathetic agony.  Stop it.

Also, I find the idea of a Vertebrate sub-forum pleasing.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
tazelbain
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6603

tazelbain


Reply #7 on: September 15, 2008, 11:05:30 AM

Then we should have an Invertebrate forum for Lawyers and Marketing.

"Me am play gods"
Cyrrex
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10356


Reply #8 on: September 15, 2008, 11:08:37 AM

Then we should have an Invertebrate forum for Lawyers and Marketing.

 awesome, for real

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
NiX
Wiki Admin
Posts: 7770

Locomotive Pandamonium


Reply #9 on: September 15, 2008, 07:03:18 PM

Sounds painful! I've recently had something close to what Bhodi had from helping a customer lift a 4x8 sheet of 3/4" MDF and having him let his side go to answer his phone. Needless to say I too spent a couple days unable to move in most directions. Of course it doesn't help that I was born with an extra disc in my lower spine, so anything bad that happens to my back that causes pain is multiplied 10 fold. I've had some horrible moments where my back muscles just give up and I just fall to the floor and become a horrible mess of pain. I'd assume the fetal position, but that would probably hurt more.

I'm going to go one step further and say if you have any abnormal amounts of back pain and often when you haven't done anything strenuous, you should get X-Rays taken just in case. I thought it was bad posture, but turned out to be a pesky extra disc.
Signe
Terracotta Army
Posts: 18942

Muse.


Reply #10 on: September 15, 2008, 10:50:30 PM

My back pain got better when I bought a treadmill but now it's not so good again, though not as bad as before. 

Oh, I have to have surgery on my thumb in a couple of weeks.  MY THUMB!  I'll have to get all my hitch-hiking done before that, just in case.  I hope I pull through.  I hope I don't lose my thumb or I'll only be half evolved.  Actually, it's out-patient, only takes 30 minutes and four or five stitches.  Still, it's DIRE because you never know what I might do to that doctor if it pinches a bit.  I could accidentally kick his ass.

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
stray
Terracotta Army
Posts: 16818

has an iMac.


Reply #11 on: September 16, 2008, 04:20:00 AM

Damn. Sorry to hear this guys.  embarassed I have nightmares about back injuries. That's the number one place I do not want to be hurt.

As much as it seems like I'm using a computer a lot, I'm actually quite a fidgety bastard. Whether it's games or work. I have to get up a lot and walk around. Hell, I can barely even sit in a comfortable seat and watch a movie without leaving for a bit.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2008, 04:25:12 AM by Stray »
DraconianOne
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2905


Reply #12 on: September 16, 2008, 05:37:57 AM

When you get better, find a good Pilates class and attend. (By good, I'd personally say you want as near to a one-on-one instruction as you can - if you were in the UK, I'd say find a Body Control Pilates teacher). Then find a decent Chiropractor who will work with you and who you feel comfortable with.

Some people will tell you that Pilates is a waste of time and money and they're probably right if you only have the usual over subscribed gym based classes but here's a true story:

6 years ago, I spent the first week of my honeymoon sleeping mostly on the floor because all the standing around we did on our wedding day antagonised my sciatica crippled my already bad back.  When we got back, I took up Pilates (as well as lost some weight and started exercising more regularly). My back pain eased up.  Several visits to a new chriporactor in the town we moved to realigned my spine and corrected my postures (thanks to insoles and arch supports).

2 years after my wedding, my back was in good enough condition to start playing rugby and these days I don't have back problems at all.  It was other, finger related injuries that made me give that up (see Schild's finger slicing thread) so Signe, you have my sympathy.

A point can be MOOT. MUTE is more along the lines of what you should be. - WayAbvPar
apocrypha
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6711

Planes? Shit, I'm terrified to get in my car now!


Reply #13 on: September 16, 2008, 11:15:32 AM

Sorry to hear so many of you have had similar problems, you all have my utmost sympathies, but I'm very grateful for the various suggestions. Pilates is something I've thought about before - I do some yoga and one of the yoga instructors I had a while ago also taught Pilates and it sounded interesting. Similarly for the Alexander technique - my dad also had sciatica about 10 years ago and he swears by it.

Anyway, had an MRI yesterday and a 2nd one today with a contrast medium (which unfortunately is just a gadolinium injection, not some kind of fortune teller which would be far more entertaining) so hopefully we'll get results next week and get on the waiting list for some physiotherapy.

In the meantime can I just say that tramadol is an awesome, awesome drug. When my pain was so bad the other week that one of our neighbours actually knocked on the door to see what the screaming was all about the tramadol shut me right up :D

"Bourgeois society stands at the crossroads, either transition to socialism or regression into barbarism" - Rosa Luxemburg, 1915.
NiX
Wiki Admin
Posts: 7770

Locomotive Pandamonium


Reply #14 on: September 16, 2008, 03:29:44 PM

My best suggestion, that I find no one does, is ice AND heat your back while laying down. Obviously alternate between the two, but the combination does wonders. A lot of people stick with one or the other, but icing only helps inflamation while heat helps relax the muscle. After my workplace injury I was alternating between the two every half hour or so. Had I not, I don't think I would of been able to bend forward during my first week.
Signe
Terracotta Army
Posts: 18942

Muse.


Reply #15 on: September 16, 2008, 07:44:56 PM

My GP told me to put ice on my thumb.  After about five or ten minutes, it started to ache.  It got progressively worse and worse for a couple of hours.  It drove me nuttier.  Nuttiest, even.  Of course, my thumb isn't your back so, well, nothing else.  That's all.   ACK!

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
Jimbo
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1477

still drives a stick shift


Reply #16 on: September 16, 2008, 10:07:59 PM

My GP told me to put ice on my thumb.  After about five or ten minutes, it started to ache.  It got progressively worse and worse for a couple of hours.  It drove me nuttier.  Nuttiest, even.  Of course, my thumb isn't your back so, well, nothing else.  That's all.   ACK!
How long did you ice it for?  20 mins of ice, then take it off and let it rest for 2 hours.  Same with heat therapy.

R.I.C.E= Rest, Ice Compression, and Elevation is used for most join injuries, except for backs, those you can modify and add alternating heat and cold therapy.
UD_Delt
Terracotta Army
Posts: 999


WWW
Reply #17 on: September 17, 2008, 08:23:31 AM

I can join the bad back club. I had a discectomy for my 30th Birthday (3 years ago).

The year before was complete misery. I had a pinched nerve because of the bulging disc and it felt like I had torn my left hamstring. After a while the pain moved into my lower back and culminated in severe back spasms at random times when I would sit or stand. Imagine a calf cramp but in your lower back...

I spent about 10 months going through first physical therapy, then muscle relaxers, oral steroids, steroid injects straight into the disc, electrode therapy, and then finally I had enough and requested the surgery because my mind was a complete mess from all the muscle relaxers and pain killers I was on.

Took about 4 weeks for 80% recovery but I had numbness in my left foot for about 6 months afterward. Now it's just a low constant ache in my back which I can deal with and I could probably improve even that if I wasn't a lazy fuck who spends 12+ hours a day at a computer screen.
Signe
Terracotta Army
Posts: 18942

Muse.


Reply #18 on: September 17, 2008, 09:15:57 AM

My GP told me to put ice on my thumb.  After about five or ten minutes, it started to ache.  It got progressively worse and worse for a couple of hours.  It drove me nuttier.  Nuttiest, even.  Of course, my thumb isn't your back so, well, nothing else.  That's all.   ACK!
How long did you ice it for?  20 mins of ice, then take it off and let it rest for 2 hours.  Same with heat therapy.

R.I.C.E= Rest, Ice Compression, and Elevation is used for most join injuries, except for backs, those you can modify and add alternating heat and cold therapy.

After about 15 minutes or so, it started to feel uncomfortable so I stopped.  Within ten minutes it was aching like crazy, my thumb joint, the base and even down my wrist.  Strangely when I shower or wash my hands in warm water, it feels better for a bit and the joint feels looser.  Anyway, it doesn't matter anymore.  I have to go under the knife!  Anything could happen!  I  COULD DIE.  Srsly.

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
Cyrrex
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10356


Reply #19 on: September 17, 2008, 11:11:45 AM

Quote
I  COULD DIE.  Srsly.

You mean like, on your drive to the doctor's office?

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Signe
Terracotta Army
Posts: 18942

Muse.


Reply #20 on: September 17, 2008, 11:57:55 AM

Oh sure, make jokes, but a woman without thumbs is nearly useless at gouging.  Lucky you.

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
Cyrrex
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10356


Reply #21 on: September 17, 2008, 12:36:41 PM

Other things you'll struggle with include:

- Flipping coins at the start of football games
- Puttingspacesbetweenwordswhiletyping
- Picking your nose with your thumb
- Thumb Wrestling
- Being a member of the primate family
- Twiddling

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Signe
Terracotta Army
Posts: 18942

Muse.


Reply #22 on: September 17, 2008, 04:57:00 PM

Picking your nose with your thumb?  You either have wee, dainty thumbs or huge ginormous nostrils!  I vote for the tiny penis!

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
Cyrrex
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10356


Reply #23 on: September 17, 2008, 05:53:21 PM

See, now you're just trying to be hurtful.  Congratulations, it worked.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Signe
Terracotta Army
Posts: 18942

Muse.


Reply #24 on: September 17, 2008, 06:51:13 PM

Oh sure.  Like anyone brings their feelings to f13!  You're just trying to tease.

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
Jimbo
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1477

still drives a stick shift


Reply #25 on: September 18, 2008, 04:24:53 AM

Just checking Signe, I didn't think you would be a cold injury in July due to sticking your hand in a tub of ice for 2 hours and then wondering what happened.  But I have patients that I tell them how to do cold therapy, hand them written instructions on cold therapy, then show up later wondering why it looking weird and hurting.  Or worse, the gals with UTI's and tell them to push the fluids, well we have had a couple of ladies over push the water and end up back in with chemical imbalances (not quite water intox, but pretty near it).

Good luck on the surgery, are they putting you under for it?  Some hand surgeries they can do with conscious sedation and local blocks, but it all depends on you and your surgeon and how you would best handle the procedure.
Signe
Terracotta Army
Posts: 18942

Muse.


Reply #26 on: September 18, 2008, 07:11:04 AM

No, I'll get happy medicine but not go under.  It seems a relatively short thing.  I've seen the entire operation online now.  It looks icky.  I probably won't really die but I'll get a cool scab and maybe a scar.

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
WayAbvPar
Moderator
Posts: 19239


Reply #27 on: September 18, 2008, 12:52:23 PM

Spent yesterday laid up with back problems. Had just drifted off to sleep when my phone decided to finally send me a text message sent hours before. Scared me straight awake and I wrenched my back while doing it. Woke up pretty much crippled. Lots of aspirin and ice, and much groaning/complaining/bitching. Back at work today, but it is still nice and stiff. Oh joy.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

Always wear clean underwear because you never know when a Tory Government is going to fuck you.- Ironwood

Libertarians make fun of everyone because they can't see beyond the event horizons of their own assholes Surlyboi
Abagadro
Terracotta Army
Posts: 12138

Possibly the only user with more posts in the Den than PC/Console Gaming.


Reply #28 on: September 19, 2008, 12:20:01 AM

I have a spondylolisthesis that has led to two degenerated discs and arthritis in my back.  I'm on diclofenac to help the pain and am supposed to be losing weight and strengthening my core. I had some success using a Swiss Ball for workouts (combined with riding a stationary bike and lifting weights) but I've been such a slacker lately I've gained everything back.

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.

-H.L. Mencken
apocrypha
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6711

Planes? Shit, I'm terrified to get in my car now!


Reply #29 on: September 19, 2008, 01:47:46 AM

What exactly is wrong with your thumb Signe? Sounds painful :(

WayAbvPar - have you had problems before? If not then that kind of thing is exactly the kind of thing that can be the start of shit that ends up where I am. Really worth going to see a doctor about, see if you can get a referral to a back specialist or a physiotherapist. Hope it clears up!

Spondylolisthesis sounds nasty too Abagadro - it's one of the conditions that I've seen often referred to as contraindications for lots of the therapies to treat my problems :(

As for me, got my MRI results, I've got one ruptured disc (the L5/S1, the lowest disc) and the material from inside that disc has leaked out and is pressing on the sciatic nerve, hence the blinding agony etc. Both my doctor and all the research I've been reading since (I'm a doctor's nightmare, I actually dig out research and clinical reports and meta-studies) suggests that an "aggressive conservative" approach has the highest rate of success, i.e. rest, painkillers, physiotherapy, exercise. We're gonna keep surgical options open as a last resort though.

Tell ya though, this has made me aware of just how common these problems are. Pretty much everyone I've spoken to about it has either had it (or similar things) themselves or they have a close relative who has. Even my GP has had exactly the same thing! Also I'm knocked out by how helpful and supportive people have been, from my college who've given me access to a disabled parking bay (when I can actually drive again, ha!) to my neighbours who've been knocking on the door every couple of days to see if I need anything and my girlfriend who has suddenly had to deal with a 39 year old total invalid for 3 weeks! People are great sometimes, for real.

"Bourgeois society stands at the crossroads, either transition to socialism or regression into barbarism" - Rosa Luxemburg, 1915.
Abagadro
Terracotta Army
Posts: 12138

Possibly the only user with more posts in the Den than PC/Console Gaming.


Reply #30 on: September 19, 2008, 01:53:11 AM

That's similar to what my dad had except he also had a piece of bone break off and start floating around in his spinal column randomly pinching that nerve. He ultimately had to be opened up, the stuff cleared out and the two vertebrae fused. It took a while to recover but after after that he was pretty good to go even golfing constantly. This was 20 years ago so I'm sure the procedures have gotten better.  At least they have a good diagnosis now and you can start working on relief. I hope it goes well.

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.

-H.L. Mencken
Bunk
Contributor
Posts: 5828

Operating Thetan One


Reply #31 on: September 19, 2008, 07:12:01 AM

What you described Apocrypha is pretty much the exact diagnosis I had. For me, it was take it easy, learn what hurts and don't do that, and light very low motion range excercise.

"Welcome to the internet, pussy." - VDL
"I have retard strength." - Schild
NiX
Wiki Admin
Posts: 7770

Locomotive Pandamonium


Reply #32 on: September 19, 2008, 07:28:47 AM

No, I'll get happy medicine but not go under.
Zombies never fall for the same trick twice, eh? ZombieSigne
UD_Delt
Terracotta Army
Posts: 999


WWW
Reply #33 on: September 19, 2008, 08:04:27 AM

apocrypha,

See my post above. I went through just about the same exact thing. I actually had two bulging discs. The l4/l5 and the l5/s1. They decided that the L4/L5 was causing the biggest problems so when I did get around to surgery they only fixed that one and just shot up the other spot with steroids again.

Good luck with the alternative approaches. The first time I had an issue, when I was 26, physical therapy worked great and I didn't have a problem again for the next 3 years. The next time around though nothing really helped.

If you get to the point of the steroid injects into your lower back don't let it freak you out. I was actually more concerned about the injections than I was the actual surgery and the injections were like nothing. Unfortunately the injections also only provided benefit for about 2-3 days as opposed to the 2-3 months they are supposed to last.

And now I think I have to quit reading this thread as it's making by back hurt all over again lol... Nothing like psychosomatic injuries.
WayAbvPar
Moderator
Posts: 19239


Reply #34 on: September 19, 2008, 10:25:47 AM

Quote
WayAbvPar - have you had problems before? If not then that kind of thing is exactly the kind of thing that can be the start of shit that ends up where I am. Really worth going to see a doctor about, see if you can get a referral to a back specialist or a physiotherapist. Hope it clears up!

Yep. I was carted out of my office on a backboard by the fire department about 5 years ago. Woke up with back pain, but ignored it and went to work. It went into full spasm and became unbearable. Laid down on the floor of my cube to try to stretch it out, but couldn't get relief and then couldn't get up. I was out of work for at least a week, and in pain for 3 weeks. Now every time my back gets the slightest twinge I dive for the ice packs and get horizontal ASAP.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

Always wear clean underwear because you never know when a Tory Government is going to fuck you.- Ironwood

Libertarians make fun of everyone because they can't see beyond the event horizons of their own assholes Surlyboi
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 Go Up Print 
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  General Discussion  |  Topic: A warning from my sciatic nerve  
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.10 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC