Public Quests Are Antisocial

[Mrbloodworth]

I’ve already commented about how I think Public Quests in Warhammer Online will be underutilized to the point that they’ll have to be changed after launch. What I didn’t talk about at the time was how this theoretically social game mechanic — this savior of cooperative play in MMOs — promotes subversive, antisocial behavior.

Everyone is singing the praises of Public Quests. They have to be in every traditional massively multiplayer game from now on. They are so much FUN! Well I’m not going to sing the praises of the system, I’m going to tear it limb from limb.

My hypothesis: Public Quests are antisocial.

And I have proof!

Link

Lots of good points, and also things i am seeing now when i log on.

[kildorn]

After chapter, say, 3, that's not the fastest way to get influence. Because soloing a PQ means you have to wait out phase 2 or 3 (depending on the PQ and how uber you are) and let it fail and reset. The fastest way since early beta has been Tank + Healer + Mage and just AE PQs down.

And his point about "get the tank killed, you get more influence if he dies!" on the hero is flat out stupid. The influence for killing the mob will go up by jack shit (one less person to split it with), but the influence reward for killing phase 3 is the phase completion bonus, which has nothing to do with amount you helped or who else is around, it's a static XP/Influence gift to everyone involved. It's the entire reason PQ grinding is good xp: No matter how much the trash mobs are diluted by other people, the phase switch bonuses stay huge.

The "go interact with item X" phases of some PQs are, however, retarded about influence splitting. Though for laughs, you usually get influence for killing the guys guarding the object, too.

edit: Just to be fair, the ways to "rig" PQ rewards are to either be a damage spiker and steal most of the influence on things tanks are hitting, or to be a healer and just HoT everyone for the massive contribution bonus at the loot reward roll.

[Mrbloodworth]

My personal tactic was to hit every mob in the area before anyone else does, from what i can tell first hit gets full credit.

[kildorn]

My personal tactic was to hit every mob in the area before anyone else does, from what i can tell first hit gets full credit.

First hit gets full _XP_

Influence is divided by contribution (taking damage from it, healing people involved, dealing damage)

If you're in a group, it's an even split based on what everyone involved would have gotten.

The trick for stealing influence is to be an ungrouped DPS class, and burn the crap out of things someone else is killing. You'll get the lion's share of the influence since you did most of the damage.

[Abelian75]

Kind of a strange article.  I've noticed all the things he's mentioned, but while I was reading that I was just thinking the whole time, "that's just an implementation detail, not inherent to the idea of public quests."  But then at the end that's basically what he said as well.  At the beginning it sounded like he was going to make the case that the idea of PQ's is inherently antisocial, when in actuality he just ended up saying that WAR's PQ's have some implementation problems.  It's just kinda weird because it really doesn't invalidate any of the "singing PQ's praises" stuff he mentioned in the beginning.

[Miasma]

Quests that random people group and do together are antisocial...  He has a good future in Republican spin doctoring.

The PQs combined with open grouping are great.  The only ones that are empty are those that are badly placed or don't have any quests that point you in that direction.  Or he was outlevelling everyone and doing empty tier2 stuff.

[HRose]

At the beginning it sounded like he was going to make the case that the idea of PQ's is inherently antisocial, when in actuality he just ended up saying that WAR's PQ's have some implementation problems.  It's just kinda weird because it really doesn't invalidate any of the "singing PQ's praises" stuff he mentioned in the beginning.

Exactly, it's what I said in the comments.

Good idea that maybe needs work in the execution. Same as always with Mythic.

[Mrbloodworth]

My personal tactic was to hit every mob in the area before anyone else does, from what i can tell first hit gets full credit.

First hit gets full _XP_

Influence is divided by contribution (taking damage from it, healing people involved, dealing damage)

If you're in a group, it's an even split based on what everyone involved would have gotten.

The trick for stealing influence is to be an ungrouped DPS class, and burn the crap out of things someone else is killing. You'll get the lion's share of the influence since you did most of the damage.

You just made part of his point, everyone is working VS. everyone else. I was trying to get first shots on everything, you were trying to get max damage...purely for personal reasons. That would be antisocial.

[Cyrrex]

I'm no psychology buff, but wouldn't that be more sociopathic than anti-social?  Does everyone engage in that kind of behaviour, or is it just a few "ruining it" for everyone else?

[cevik]

The closest I got to social(ness?) in a PQ during my playtime was when someone said "hey you fucking asshole" then kicked me from the public group I was when I hit max influence and ran 100 yards away to buy my influence reward after the PQ completed.

Otherwise we never said a word to one another throughout any PQ I did, nor did anyone do anything that resembled helping you.

[Goreschach]

I'm no psychology buff, but wouldn't that be more sociopathic than anti-social?  Does everyone engage in that kind of behaviour, or is it just a few "ruining it" for everyone else?

Well, technically sociopathy is termed anti-social personality disorder. But if you want to go ahead and make grand sweeping psychological generalizations from a videogame, the term that immediately comes to my mind is 'douchebag'.

[Cyrrex]

Well, I was really more getting at whether or not it was a practice everyone participates in, or if it is just a few douchebags.  But I think Cevik's post described it well enough.

[rattran]

Oddly, I've mostly seen a order/destro split on PQs in OB. The Destro ones people work together, there's group chat, people asking for heals, and the boss mobs go down fast. Order ones no one talks, healers just nuke the boss, people die, all in silence. Or one/two guys talking in /party and everyone else ignoring them.

Little hint: Cohesive groups do better.

[tazelbain]

So many people play MMO as a single-player game with other people around.  PQ are continuing this tend.

Small groups will get much more out of a PQ than a soloist no matter how douchebaggie they are.  They will get more stage bonuses and better rolls at the end.

[Nebu]

I've found that the random people in PQ's just piss me off.  Take for instance the Chapter 3 PQ in the human lands.  You kill a bunch of mobs and then have to flame 5 wagons.  Well, each wagon spawns a champion or two.  Every time my group does this PQ, some idiot runs around and caps all 5 wagons spawning like 10 champions, the main hero boss, and his two champion minions.  Solos and small groups that have no clue what they're doing essentially wipe the encounter for others.  I think this type of scenario has too much grief potential to be an effective social tool. 

[Lakov_Sanite]

I've found that the random people in PQ's just piss me off.  Take for instance the Chapter 3 PQ in the human lands.  You kill a bunch of mobs and then have to flame 5 wagons.  Well, each wagon spawns a champion or two.  Every time my group does this PQ, some idiot runs around and caps all 5 wagons spawning like 10 champions, the main hero boss, and his two champion minions.  Solos and small groups that have no clue what they're doing essentially wipe the encounter for others.  I think this type of scenario has too much grief potential to be an effective social tool. 

Well if you have a group of people and don't want to bother with hordes of mouth breathers coming in, taking your kills and nabbing the very nicely random loot that wouldn't have been won without your groups effort you can always go do a dungeon....oh, wait.

[schild]

I like PQs. I think these complaints are superficial. It's a neat structure. F13 is already antisocial, PQs aren't going to change anything.

[tazelbain]

There is 2 other PQ in that chapter and 6 others in the allied chapters.  You have plenty of choices but I am sure people just want to bitch.

[Nebu]

Well if you have a group of people and don't want to bother with hordes of mouth breathers coming in, taking your kills and nabbing the very nicely random loot that wouldn't have been won without your groups effort you can always go do a dungeon....oh, wait.

You missed the point completely.  In a PQ, ONE PERSON can ruin a PQ for LOTS OF PEOPLE.  This is a bad mechanic.  It's not about my group wanting all the loot or xp.  It's about one idiot making it hard for everyone to complete the PQ.

[Nebu]

I like PQs. I think these complaints are superficial. It's a neat structure. F13 is already antisocial, PQs aren't going to change anything.

I like the concept behind PQ's.  I just don't think that they thought out some of the implementation thoroughly.  As PQ's get harder, there are new mechanics introduced that allow a single player to spawn multiple champion/heroic mobs.  This has potential to cause lots of grief issues. 

[cevik]

There is 2 other PQ in that chapter and 6 others in the allied chapters.  You have plenty of choices but I am sure people just want to bitch.

The problem with this mentality is you are essentially saying "look, if you are willing to work at it, there is fun to be had, you just need to put in the effort to find it."

That doesn't work in a mmog.  I keep seeing iterations on the above statement said about everything that people have complaints about, for example, every time someone complains that the queue times are long they are told "gah, just go to the Empire/Chaos land and queue there!"  That may be good for the die hard supporters of the game that are going to like it no matter what and are going to put in the extra effort to FIND the fun, but it isn't going to work for Joe Schmoe who just happens to want to log in and have fun.

This is why the game is going to be stillborn.  There may be fun to be had, but there are plenty of unfun things that tend to get in the way.  And expecting people to work around those unfun things isn't a valid solution.  Saying "ohh so what if this PQ is broken?  Just do another one" isn't going to work for the average guy, in my most humble of opinions.

[Draegan]

As you rank up the PQs get harder, and I'd rather get a shot at the rewards when you finish it than max out my influence.

[Blackguard]

Just in case it wasn't clear in the article itself...

I'm being hard on Public Quests not based on their concept, but based on their implementation. They have more potential than any new PvE system I've seen in years, so I'm being very critical of them. In the latest patch, it seems they made it so you gain Influence for killing anything in the PQ even if they aren't directly related to the stages. This is a major fix to the antisocial bent they seemed to take on due to players be asses.

[tazelbain]

The problem with this mentality is you are essentially saying "look, if you are willing to work at it, there is fun to be had, you just need to put in the effort to find it."

I have zerged PQs.  I have soled PQs.  I have done PQ in a small group.  These are all viable ways.  You're choice.  Only in Cevikland does giving people options equal work.

>This is why the game is going to be stillborn.
So you join Grunk in doomcasting WAR.  

[cevik]

Only in Cevikland does giving people options equal work.

And only in tazelbainland is giving people 3 broken options and 1 working option anywhere near acceptable.

[schild]

There's a lot of things worth directing hate at in WAR, I don't think PQs is one of them.

[Nebu]

There's a lot of things worth directing hate at in WAR, I don't think PQs is one of them.

PQ's are an example of something I see in academia daily; great concept, lousy implementation.  In their current form they will be AFK abused, used as griefing tools, and min-maxxed constantly.  You're right though, compared to crashes, UI concerns, mob pathing, pet pathing, and various other bugs and balance issues... PQ's aren't high on the bitch list. 

[tazelbain]

You can choice to drive a thousand different cars.  Just because you would prefer not to drive a minivan doesn't mean cars or minivans are broken.

[cevik]

There's a lot of things worth directing hate at in WAR, I don't think PQs is one of them.

Okay, and that's a valid opinion you have.  However, I think PQs are a gimmick that were implemented because not enough time was allotted to design real group content and are just tacked on with very little design consideration, some pretty big glaring holes in both the design and implementation that will quickly grow dull and rarely be used in a month.  See, we have different opinions.

[cevik]

You can choice to drive a thousand different cars.  Just because you would prefer not to drive a minivan doesn't mean cars or minivans are broken.

You don't understand what I'm saying by broken.  I'm not saying that it's a car I didn't choose, I'm saying that queue times for pvp instances other than Empire/Chaos were literally 4 hours and growing.  That's not a "you chose a minivan" thats "as broken as a fucking gremlin."

Same thing for PQs, there are PQs that are flat broken.  Some are so hard to find that there are literally no one doing them, some are exploitable in serious ways to grief people, some are exploitable by AE classes to always steal the most contribution, and a few work.  Those aren't "zomg you didn't pick the minivan but it's still a valid type of car", those things are broken.  For every 5 things you find in the game, 1 works and 4 are broken.

[schild]

Short of the fact people don't work together and there's no real way to force them to outside of controlled scenarios, they seem to be at least in tier 1 and 2, the best way to get guaranteed rewards (either by winning a roll in a PQ or through influence points) and experience. The reward for trudging through what everyone is calling "bad implementation" seems to me adequate. That said, I've done somewhere around 100 PQs and while yea, some morons can fuck it up, I don't suck at the game so I've had a good time and have done reasonably well.

In fact, I do very very well when playing my Shadow Warrior winning more often than not winning.

Will they be used in a month? No doubt, an organized group of 6 can take down an entire PQ. That's one group. Failing to see the whole problem itt.

I'm not saying that it's a car I didn't choose, I'm saying that queue times for pvp instances other than Empire/Chaos were literally 4 hours and growing.  That's not a "you chose a minivan" thats "as broken as a fucking gremlin."

I have never had this problem. Perhaps your server was shitty, entirely possible, but 4 hours? Not buying it, sorry.

[Nebu]

That said, I've done somewhere around 100 PQs and while yea, some morons can fuck it up, I don't suck at the game so I've had a good time and have done reasonably well.

In fact, I do very very well when playing my Shadow Warrior winning more often than not winning.

So, what you're saying is that the playerbase should overcome bad implementation with skill AND be happy about it if the rewards are proportionate to the annoyance?  I want to have fun playing the game.  For me the rewards are not the fun, they are a byproduct of the fun process.

[cevik]

I'm not saying that it's a car I didn't choose, I'm saying that queue times for pvp instances other than Empire/Chaos were literally 4 hours and growing.  That's not a "you chose a minivan" thats "as broken as a fucking gremlin."

I have never had this problem. Perhaps your server was shitty, entirely possible, but 4 hours? Not buying it, sorry.

I posted about it when it happened to me (in the Greenskin/Dwarf area) and the answer was "queue in Empire/Chaos and/or switch servers".  I could go dig up the post.  It was back just before the first preview weekend on Destruction side during the CE beta period.  Perhaps it was a low population problem because they overestimated the number of players coming in CE beta, but I suspect that if I saw the problem then, it will be much much worse in a month or two.

[schild]

So, what you're saying is that the playerbase should overcome bad implementation with skill AND be happy about it if the rewards are proportionate to the annoyance?

My annoyances with PQs are no greater or lesser than any annoyance involving other players. I already don't like other players. They're bad at games and suck most of the time. They also make things harder more often than not. But at the same time, Mythic can't fix other players being Bad At Organization. It's a sad reality of MMOGs. But the actual implementation doens't effect my playstyle too much.

With 7-8 people not even working well together, you can come in and sweep up a PQ with as little as a DPS and a Healer with nominal effort. The other people just have to be bodies slamming any ability at all. Better than regular questing imo.

[Merusk]

Cevik was Destro, and that's the problem.   It's like when WoW had server-only BG queues.  The Alliance queues were 2-3 hours while the horde-side were nearly instant.  I had the same problem when I was destro, but never saw it on Order.

As for PQs.  They're a return back to oldschool "open" dungeons instead of Instances, so they're going to have the exact same problems those open dungeons did.  One random asshat with grief on his mind will make life miserable for everyone involved.  "D'vinn to zone!"