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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Warhammer Online (Moderator: tazelbain)  |  Topic: Boosting in BGs: Worthless? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Ingmar
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Reply #35 on: September 08, 2008, 01:38:28 PM

A lot of the problems you are seeing in the low level BGs are probably the result of skill access differences, not necessarily gear or scaling.

The game encourages you to go into the BG at level 2, when you have all of 2-3 abilities available to you, and doesn't have separate queueing for premades. So you often end up with a BG half full of level 2 new characters running up against a premade of level 10 guys in the better noob RVR armor, and they have all their skills including morale ability #1, which is a big tide turner.

Personally I don't think it makes much sense to do the scenarios before level 5 or 6 at a minimum, before that you will just get eaten alive, even with the level scaling.

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Nebu
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Reply #36 on: September 08, 2008, 01:40:16 PM

Personally I don't think it makes much sense to do the scenarios before level 5 or 6 at a minimum, before that you will just get eaten alive, even with the level scaling.

I'd even argue level 8.  Most classes don't start getting their defining abilities until then.  Sadly, even at 8 a group of all 10's & 11's will destroy you if competently played.

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cevik
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Reply #37 on: September 08, 2008, 01:42:28 PM

There is no massive gear imbalance. PVP gear = PVP gear = PVP gear.

Let me put it this way: As a level say 8rr0, you have really bad gear. Because the game doesn't give you a full set of green gear out of the gate. However, a level 8rr8 will be able to buy about half a set of green gear.

At level 40rr0, you'll have okay gear from leveling. Mostly blue, some purple. Likely not heavy in resists, but heavy in willpower/int/str as you need. A level 40rr40 character in full pvp gear will have lower dps/healing than you, but far more defense/resists/hp. They'll probably kill you, but it's anywhere near Scholo Blues vs Naxx.

Hi, have you read the thread?

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kildorn
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Reply #38 on: September 08, 2008, 01:43:55 PM

That's all pretty far near impossible to do, though. Every game winds up with optimal classes for situations, and players create the situation.

As for the 4 level 5s vs a level 20.. enh. It's rarely going to happen. You'd need to provide massive boosts for proximity to other players or something.

WAR's gear balance isn't that big a deal. The top PVE gear (there's no raiding, this is all PQ and 5 man instance acquired) is equivalent dps/armor/stats to the top pvp gear. Period. There's no raid game, and the pvp grind is only a grind if you skip it for 20 levels and need to go pick up RRs to catch up. Then it's kinda lame.

What happens in the first 10 levels that makes people unkillable?

First Morale (.. yeah)
First Tactic (emperor's ward alone massively increases your 1v1 potential)
More Class Abilities (For WPs: getting your snare, and Divine Assault are huge.)

Is it the gear? Not really. The mitenmoor sledge (level 7 quest) is a whole 2 dps under the rvr hammer.
kildorn
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Reply #39 on: September 08, 2008, 01:45:01 PM

Personally I don't think it makes much sense to do the scenarios before level 5 or 6 at a minimum, before that you will just get eaten alive, even with the level scaling.

I'd even argue level 8.  Most classes don't start getting their defining abilities until then.  Sadly, even at 8 a group of all 10's & 11's will destroy you if competently played.

First tactic at 11 is silly. Heck, the brackets not being 1-10, 11-20, 21-30, etc is silly.

A chosen or WP with their first tactic is Nuts compared to anyone else.
kildorn
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Reply #40 on: September 08, 2008, 01:46:22 PM

There is no massive gear imbalance. PVP gear = PVP gear = PVP gear.

Let me put it this way: As a level say 8rr0, you have really bad gear. Because the game doesn't give you a full set of green gear out of the gate. However, a level 8rr8 will be able to buy about half a set of green gear.

At level 40rr0, you'll have okay gear from leveling. Mostly blue, some purple. Likely not heavy in resists, but heavy in willpower/int/str as you need. A level 40rr40 character in full pvp gear will have lower dps/healing than you, but far more defense/resists/hp. They'll probably kill you, but it's anywhere near Scholo Blues vs Naxx.

Hi, have you read the thread?

Yes. Do you have any evidence that gear > spells? Is your level 8 character losing to it's level 8 analog constantly?
amiable
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Reply #41 on: September 08, 2008, 01:48:39 PM

There is no massive gear imbalance. PVP gear = PVP gear = PVP gear.

Let me put it this way: As a level say 8rr0, you have really bad gear. Because the game doesn't give you a full set of green gear out of the gate. However, a level 8rr8 will be able to buy about half a set of green gear.

At level 40rr0, you'll have okay gear from leveling. Mostly blue, some purple. Likely not heavy in resists, but heavy in willpower/int/str as you need. A level 40rr40 character in full pvp gear will have lower dps/healing than you, but far more defense/resists/hp. They'll probably kill you, but it's anywhere near Scholo Blues vs Naxx.

Hi, have you read the thread?

Have you?  The gear question is previous threads that you reffered to related to high-end access, not the Tier 1 zone.
Nebu
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Reply #42 on: September 08, 2008, 01:50:20 PM

First tactic at 11 is silly. Heck, the brackets not being 1-10, 11-20, 21-30, etc is silly.

A chosen or WP with their first tactic is Nuts compared to anyone else.

Very good point.  I don't know how they decided on raising someone lower than 8 to 8.  Why not 9? Why not 10?  I realize that they're "rewarding" those that are the true level, but presenting them with cannon fodder doesn't seem like much fun for the fodder.  

What I'm saying is that if you want your game to be a pvp-based game, then make the pvp fun for all parties involved... not just those with the (gear, level, tactic) advantage.

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Ingmar
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Reply #43 on: September 08, 2008, 01:50:32 PM


As for the 4 level 5s vs a level 20.. enh. It's rarely going to happen. You'd need to provide massive boosts for proximity to other players or something.


It could easily happen in a game like Guild Wars, but you'd have a hard time finding an MMO where gear matters less. Really I think for most people, gear doesn't matter *enough* in GW.

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Nebu
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Reply #44 on: September 08, 2008, 01:52:58 PM

If people like collecting gear, play WoW.  It's built as a gear-whore's wet dream.  I just don't see a good way to incorporate gear whoring into a pvp-based game without alienating the 80% of the playerbase that will always be on the losing end of a pvp encounter.  They're forced to rely on numbers for their superiority, which doesn't always end well.   

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Ingmar
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Reply #45 on: September 08, 2008, 01:53:08 PM

First tactic at 11 is silly. Heck, the brackets not being 1-10, 11-20, 21-30, etc is silly.

A chosen or WP with their first tactic is Nuts compared to anyone else.

Very good point.  I don't know how they decided on raising someone lower than 8 to 8.  Why not 9? Why not 10?  I realize that they're "rewarding" those that are the true level, but presenting them with cannon fodder doesn't seem like much fun for the fodder.  

What I'm saying is that if you want your game to be a pvp-based game, then make the pvp fun for all parties involved... not just those with the advantage.

My only guess is that it is meant to be some sort of carrot for leveling via PVP or something. Really what they probably should have done is something to make the churn a little higher, so people couldn't/wouldn't want to stay in the BG at level 10. It may be that this won't be nearly as much of a problem at release when people have a reason (and ability) to keep leveling?

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Mrbloodworth
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Reply #46 on: September 08, 2008, 01:53:12 PM

One thing is an even progression in levels and powers to give that sense of growth.

Another is a huge leap at some specific levels.

They should simply stagger the gear more uniformly, without major bumps.

There is no place for uber gear in a pvp-based MMO, staggered or not.

1) Gear should be easily obtainable.  So easy, in fact, that it's not the point of the game.    This is a great opportunity to involve crafters in your community.  A missed opportunity in most games.  

2) Levels should impart a wider variety of abilities, not an increase in power.  Players adept at using a multitude of tools should be the cream.  Learning to use tools takes time... this is what should reward retention.  Play more = get better.  Not:  play more = get more artificial plusses to your stats.  

3) 4 level 5's should have a 50:50 shot at beating 1 level 20.  If this isn't the case, your game is too PvE dependent.

4) Min - Maxxing should have limited value.  

5) A group with 6 different classes > A group without 6 different classes.  It looks like WAR is attempting this, but I think the playerbase will outsmart them by identifying the most overpowered abilities and stacking them.  

Bah... I'm rehashing 1999.  My apologies.

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Nebu
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Reply #47 on: September 08, 2008, 01:55:54 PM

My only guess is that it is meant to be some sort of carrot for leveling via PVP or something. Really what they probably should have done is something to make the churn a little higher, so people couldn't/wouldn't want to stay in the BG at level 10. It may be that this won't be nearly as much of a problem at release when people have a reason (and ability) to keep leveling?

I think you're correct.  At release, you'll see a race to the endgame.  Those that get to the endgame first will exploit the hell out of their advantage until others catch up.  By then, they will be far enough ahead to be king-of-the-hill for a while.  When that wears thin, they will leave or become BG warriors.  See: DAoC.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

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Ingmar
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Reply #48 on: September 08, 2008, 02:00:53 PM

It is much easier for Mythic to balance the endgame than it is for them to balance multi-level BGs, at least, so I expect that endgame pvp won't as imbalanced. I'm *sure* it won't be as imbalanced as WoW at least.

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cevik
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Reply #49 on: September 08, 2008, 02:01:43 PM

It is much easier for Mythic to balance the endgame than it is for them to balance multi-level BGs, at least, so I expect that endgame pvp won't as imbalanced. I'm *sure* it won't be as imbalanced as WoW at least.

I'll believe it when I see it.

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Nebu
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Reply #50 on: September 08, 2008, 02:07:38 PM

I'll believe it when I see it.

I'm on your side this time.  The only way to balance these games is by homogenizing them (both sides get exactly the same of everything).  This results in a pretty bland feeling game with limited replay value (though chess seems to break this mold).  I find the differences in the realms the places where the most interesting tactics discussions evolve.  Of course, these are also the places where the most painful mechanics alterations (read: nerfs) occur. 

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tazelbain
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Reply #51 on: September 08, 2008, 02:20:39 PM

I would rather them fix the scaling than handing out overpowered gear.  The scaling should do more.  Plus the 7 and unders should get a temporary Moral ability.

With my latest IB, I started joining Gates at level 1.  I had fun besides being worthless.  Killed a level 2 shaman.  Really the lack basic strategy bothered me more than anything.  It would make it more pleasant if my armor scaled to level 8 to match my hitpoints.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2008, 02:24:38 PM by tazelbain »

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