Mark Jacobs Interview Regarding AoC and Hellgate (Why They Tanked)

[schild]

You are also saying playing because of the loot is play diablo wrong?

What? No, that's exactly the opposite of what I'm saying. Random layout + the infinite horizon of loot is why you replay it. Why it fulfills that inner slot machine trashy whore everyone has inside them. MMOGs, thus far, don't really have that and the ones that do have done it POORLY. As such, I hate knowing what's coming. Even if it's just skills. I don't look that far up the tree unless it's for a purpose (like Bazooko's Circus).

That rhymed, my bad.

[sam, an eggplant]

They don't just hit harder, they hit much harder and have immunities, so that you're forced to exploit various tactical abilities of your character that weren't required and are generally ignored on lower difficulties. There are substantial gameplay changes on higher difficulty levels. They aren't exactly rocket science though, and a great deal of it is just "be much more careful". It's really about the acquisition of sweet, sweet loot.

I disagree about the skill trees. Character building is a great deal of the attraction of diablo. Each class had various ways to specialize; amazons could be bowazons, javazons, poisonazons, etc. I liked that stuff, and it translated perfectly to WoW.

[cevik]

Looking back on the 'fun' that was WoW raiding:  What rotation maximizes dps?  What gems do I use?  What gear is best?  What enchants?  What potions/elixirs/flasks?  What spec?  Blah fucking blah blah. 

Yup, that pretty much covers what I think is fun about WoW raiding.  I have a blast obsessing over that stuff.

Fuck after every raid, I spend 2 hours the next morning pouring over the WWS and comparing it to last weeks.

Speaking of which, I grabbed a Timbal's Focusing Crystal the other day because I still do not have a Hex Shrunken Head.  So I go to the first raid and I feel like my DPS has increased, but then I look at WWS the next day and I find that my average Shadow Bolt had decreased significantly.  We didn't have a Shadow Priest with us, so I chalked some of the decrease up to that, but it was WAY more than a 15% decrease in average Shadow Bolt power.

So I go about obsessing about it the next day trying to figure it out, when I'm running Heroic Ramparts or some silly thing and I notice my Timbal trinket go off.  So I look back through the logs at the Timbals crystal and low and behold, the proc from Timbal is logged as "Shadow Bolt".  So it turns out enough Timbals procs had gone off to drastically reduce my average "Shadow Bolt" in WWS, because it averages Timbals procs in the mix.

Whew.

Anyways, see that's the life of a min/maxer for ya.  Full of fun times with lots of math!

[Soln]

"WWS"?

[schild]

I think Cevik is exhibiting a highly advanced form of Autism.

[cevik]

"WWS"?

http://wowwebstats.com/

[Ratman_tf]

You are also saying playing because of the loot is play diablo wrong?

What? No, that's exactly the opposite of what I'm saying. Random layout + the infinite horizon of loot is why you replay it. Why it fulfills that inner slot machine trashy whore everyone has inside them. MMOGs, thus far, don't really have that and the ones that do have done it POORLY. As such, I hate knowing what's coming. Even if it's just skills. I don't look that far up the tree unless it's for a purpose (like Bazooko's Circus).

That rhymed, my bad.

The layouts aren't that random, and the horizon for loot is level 99.

The functional difference between Diablo 2 and WoW is that WoW has 3-D gameplay instead of sprites, and the holy trinity of Healer/Tank/DPS.

[schild]

The functional difference between Diablo 2 and WoW is that WoW has 3-D gameplay instead of sprites, and the holy trinity of Healer/Tank/DPS.

Keep thinking that.

[naum]

Looking back on the 'fun' that was WoW raiding:  What rotation maximizes dps?  What gems do I use?  What gear is best?  What enchants?  What potions/elixirs/flasks?  What spec?  Blah fucking blah blah. 

Yup, that pretty much covers what I think is fun about WoW raiding.  I have a blast obsessing over that stuff.

Fuck after every raid, I spend 2 hours the next morning pouring over the WWS and comparing it to last weeks.

Speaking of which, I grabbed a Timbal's Focusing Crystal the other day because I still do not have a Hex Shrunken Head.  So I go to the first raid and I feel like my DPS has increased, but then I look at WWS the next day and I find that my average Shadow Bolt had decreased significantly.  We didn't have a Shadow Priest with us, so I chalked some of the decrease up to that, but it was WAY more than a 15% decrease in average Shadow Bolt power.

So I go about obsessing about it the next day trying to figure it out, when I'm running Heroic Ramparts or some silly thing and I notice my Timbal trinket go off.  So I look back through the logs at the Timbals crystal and low and behold, the proc from Timbal is logged as "Shadow Bolt".  So it turns out enough Timbals procs had gone off to drastically reduce my average "Shadow Bolt" in WWS, because it averages Timbals procs in the mix.

Whew.

Anyways, see that's the life of a min/maxer for ya.  Full of fun times with lots of math!

[Ratman_tf]

The functional difference between Diablo 2 and WoW is that WoW has 3-D gameplay instead of sprites, and the holy trinity of Healer/Tank/DPS.

Keep thinking that.

I will! Thanks! 

[Glazius]

The functional difference between Diablo 2 and WoW is that WoW has 3-D gameplay instead of sprites, the holy trinity of Healer/Tank/DPS, and known pieces of best gear with fixed means to obtain them.

Fixed that for ya.

Schild, you would have bailed on WoW as soon as you found out the best gear in the game came from and only from 25-man raids with four progression steps, no matter what that best gear was. It wouldn't matter if it was partially junctioned to infinity.

[Ratman_tf]

The functional difference between Diablo 2 and WoW is that WoW has 3-D gameplay instead of sprites, the holy trinity of Healer/Tank/DPS, and known pieces of best gear with fixed means to obtain them.

Fixed that for ya.

Schild, you would have bailed on WoW as soon as you found out the best gear in the game came from and only from 25-man raids with four progression steps, no matter what that best gear was. It wouldn't matter if it was partially junctioned to infinity.

You're still clicking on loot pinatas until they pop. WoW could emulate Diablo 2 by putting all their loot on a global random table, and Diablo 3 just may wind up having class specific gear. Moreso than Diablo 2 anyway. They're not that far seperated in gameplay.

[Venkman]

The functional difference between Diablo 2 and WoW is that WoW has 3-D gameplay instead of sprites, and the holy trinity of Healer/Tank/DPS.

Keep thinking that.

You're playing for loot. They're playing for loot. The big difference is that you don't know exactly what you could get. But the underlying ability to get it at all is based on the same core concept of stat adjusted abilities. So they're shades of the same thing, not radically different. Which is why Diablo2 gets slapped with an "MMO" label sometimes

[schild]

Knowing which mob to farm to get x piece of loot and knowing where to get the best pieces of loot is a radical change from everything having varying degrees of possibility in dropping y.

The only shade here is that both games are fully itemized. The actual itemization is completely different though.

Pindleskin was a step in that direction, but nowhere near what WoW did.

[cevik]

I hate that MMORPG has become all about THIS, spreadsheet analysis to tweak for optimal play efficiency. It's a circular theme that has infested the gameplay mechanics now that this is factored in… …not that understanding about the mechanics is totally wrong, it's just that when you have to plot and plan to play a game, something's a tad askew…

[naum]

Dude, you posted a shot of your LARP group! Which one are you?   

I hate that MMORPG has become all about THIS, spreadsheet analysis to tweak for optimal play efficiency. It's a circular theme that has infested the gameplay mechanics now that this is factored in… …not that understanding about the mechanics is totally wrong, it's just that when you have to plot and plan to play a game, something's a tad askew…

[cevik]

Dude, you posted a shot of your LARP group! Which one are you?   

The min/maxer with the spreadsheet and the digital camera.

IIRC you are the ghey elf that bitches about how we all need to roleplay more.  Which one exactly are you?  I'm not sure you fuckers all look alike to me.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Is the guy in the center tv's frank?

[naum]

Dude, you posted a shot of your LARP group! Which one are you?   

The min/maxer with the spreadsheet and the digital camera.

IIRC you are the ghey elf that bitches about how we all need to roleplay more.  Which one exactly are you?  I'm not sure you fuckers all look alike to me.

You can't catch me on camera! I'm the ghost of Middle Earth past… 

[Ratman_tf]

I tried LARP once, but someone hit me in the eye with a throwing star!

[pants]

I don't understand why this argument is occurring (beside the obivous fact its the internet, and thus people are wrong).  Some people are spreadsheet hugging min/maxers.  Some people love exploring and discovering the unknown.  Some people hate having the 4th wall when it comes to mmorpgs just being collections of numbers, and some people love it.  So?  Different people like different things, news at 11 etc etc.

Someone mentioned how its a pity developers have squeezed the experimentation out of mmorpgs, and I do agree with that.  I really liked that Quad kiting, and fear kiting, and dual wielding skelly pets, and monk feign pulling and all that crap came out of EQ without the devs plan, due to players just learning how to do shit.  Its a pity someone decided that mmorpgs shouldn't be so sandboxy (heh, never thought Id say EQ was sandboxy), and instead everyone has a clearly defined path/role.

and then there was something about diablo.

[Endie]

MMORPGS are derivative.  Millions of people like this.

Agreed.  Just look at the blog by Tobold, and his reaction to various games.  Judging by the immense popularity of his blog, he is not alone in asking for the same hit-things/get stuff/level/hit bigger things harder/get better stuff/level etc experience.  He loves it, and so do all his little minions, and when a certain cantankerous Essex-based academic criticises that nice, safe reskinning of each others' games  they go raj...

[cevik]

I don't understand why this argument is occurring (beside the obivous fact its the internet, and thus people are wrong).  Some people are spreadsheet hugging min/maxers.  Some people love exploring and discovering the unknown.  Some people hate having the 4th wall when it comes to mmorpgs just being collections of numbers, and some people love it.  So?  Different people like different things, news at 11 etc etc.

Yeah, that's basically what I was trying to say above.  To each their own.

[Ratman_tf]

Someone mentioned how its a pity developers have squeezed the experimentation out of mmorpgs, and I do agree with that.  I really liked that Quad kiting, and fear kiting, and dual wielding skelly pets, and monk feign pulling and all that crap came out of EQ without the devs plan, due to players just learning how to do shit.  Its a pity someone decided that mmorpgs shouldn't be so sandboxy (heh, never thought Id say EQ was sandboxy), and instead everyone has a clearly defined path/role.

One of my biggest beefs with Everquest was that any time a player came up with a non-standard way of approaching an encounter, it was slapped down as an exploit. Once their party paradigm was in place, all gameplay was to be in "the box" and the box was pretty damn small.

and then there was something about diablo.

It's always about Diablo.

[Venkman]

... when a certain cantankerous Essex-based academic criticises that nice, safe reskinning of each others' games  they go raj...

You can't have evolution without questioning the establishment. Because otherwise all you have is an industry dominated by the rules mastered by the one or two elite titles out there. And that only works for the elite titles.

WoW is fine for a min/maxer fantasy diku-inspired market. Other companies will only be able to compete for their limited share of that pie if they spend even more money with an even better IP. So that leaves recreating the rules for success, or ignoring the min/maxer fantasy diku-inspired market altogether to chase a different demographic.

That's fine as long as people like us are happy playing WoW until the universe collapses (or the LHC black holes us... )

You don't evolve industries on the backs of the masters of the current one. This is the lesson SOE (hopefully) learned when they opened early beta of their "casual EQ1 followup" to their hardest core EQ1 players (the folks paying $39.99/mo for the min/maxer dreamteam server).

[Glazius]

I don't understand why this argument is occurring (beside the obivous fact its the internet, and thus people are wrong).  Some people are spreadsheet hugging min/maxers.  Some people love exploring and discovering the unknown.  Some people hate having the 4th wall when it comes to mmorpgs just being collections of numbers, and some people love it.  So?  Different people like different things, news at 11 etc etc.

From my perspective, this argument is occurring because it's an argument over what kinds of information the game should present to the player versus what kinds of information should be compiled and distributed outside the game and its official channels.

Spoilers for content: outside the game.
Transparency of mechanics: within the game.

So, for example:

The most epic of epic axes and its stats, including attack power: better off compiled and distributed outside the game.
How attack power influences the damage you do: ideally in-game as help text, a short explanatory video, or both; if not in game, then through an official channel.

[Mrbloodworth]

And here i am, a fan of the White wolf Dot system.

[Glazius]

And here i am, a fan of the White wolf Dot system.

As long as the dots that directly impact rolling dice draw from a different build pool than the dots that don't (though universal XP is still okay) dots are fine. They affect the outcome of random tests in simple, easy-to-understand ways.

And when you put them into things like "property" or "wealth" or "connections" you put them in there with the understanding that it conveys to your Storyteller your relative emphasis on each of those factors, keyed to references you agree on when you start playing, and if you can't trust him not to dick you over WRT those "fuzzy dots" why the hell are you letting him CONTROL YOUR WORLD?

[Lantyssa]

With the Dot system, you pretty much know the mechanics of the system.  Have a Dot, get a Die.  Nothing is directly hidden, so the player is informed.  What they don't know, until the GM tells them to roll, is their difficulty, which the GM can keep secret if necessary.  It's the best balance between the player being informed and the unknown possibilities before attempting a task.

[Azazel]

One of my biggest beefs with Everquest was that any time a player came up with a non-standard way of approaching an encounter, it was slapped down as an exploit. Once their party paradigm was in place, all gameplay was to be in "the box" and the box was pretty damn small.

Well, except for the things thay left in:

FD pulling
Kiting
Fear Kiting
Bard-twist Kiting


Also. Alchemy is Working As Intended. 

[Valmorian]

With the Dot system, you pretty much know the mechanics of the system. 

In this way, it's like every other PnP RPG.  Roll a die and add your skill number.  Roll three dice under your skill number.  It's all the same.