Religious In-Laws Advice please.

[Pennilenko]

My wife and I are very happy. Our ideologies have never caused any stir between us. I am an athiest. My wife is a non christian diest. Her family is comprised of catholics of varying degrees of devoutness.

Recently they have discovered that we did not get married under any sort of religious style. Basically we were married on a beach by a good friend who got her notary status so she could marry us. The trouble started when her mother wanted to meet the priest that married us while they were visiting. It was at this moment in time that my wife explained to her family that we didn't have a religious ceremony. She also chose to tell her mom about my beleifs and that she herself was not a catholic or a christian, and mearly a deist. Now her family is harrasing me personally. From accusations of ruining their daughter to trying to purposefully destroy their family.

This was a complete non issue between my wife and myself. Now there is a building pressure from her family, and espcially since she has a close good relationship with most of them it is causing her stress and undue emotional pain. Several of her family members are refusing to speak to her untill she rejoins the fold and renounces her relationship with me. This particular bomb was dropped on us just minutes ago.

I really thought that these were good solid values people, who appeared to care a great deal about their daughter. It seems that they are not willing to just be happy for us.

I have no idea how to go about handling the situation. I have been very carefull to keep my mouth shut. I have not wanted to do anything that brings stress towards my wife from my direction. I want to help her, but I dont want to make any mistakes that would position me as an adversary or causer of stress. I am definitely not going to do the traditional, "Choose me or them!" thing.

Please dispense with advice or opinions. I know there are some really educated people on this board in the field of psychology.

[Nebu]

What do you want?  What does your wife want?  That's all that matters. 

There is no educating the in-laws, so anything you say to them is likely to not be helpful.  I'd say that you and your wife need to explore your wishes and then construct a nice way of taking them to the family.  Whether or not they approve, it's your decision and they have to find some peace with that.  You have to be at peace with your decision, so find a place with all of this that helps you sleep at night. 

On a personal note: The fact that your wife still gives them this much power over her life is a concern.  She is an adult and gets to choose how to make her own life.  I recognize this as a power play on the part of her family and she really needs to draw a line in the sand if they are to ever recognize her as an independant woman in the future. 

[Merusk]

You don't have to do the "Choose me or them" as they did it.  And if that's their position, then that's what she's going to have to do.

Your wife can sit down and explain things, but it'll always be your fault. It's always the outsiders fault, and since she's blood it can't be hers. 

Catholics are the worst of this bunch in my experience.  I've known families to renounce people and even children they've known for years because the wedding wasn't Catholic or the wedding wasn't in a Catholic church. It's ugly, and you're only seeing the tip of it.  Even if you get 'accepted' there will be comments and derision directed at you both behind your back and to your face.

Sorry dude.  Best I can say is wash your hands of them and hope your wife comes to the same decision.

On a personal note: The fact that your wife still gives them this much power over her life is a concern.  She is an adult and gets to choose how to make her own life.  I recognize this as a power play on the part of her family and she really needs to draw a line in the sand if they are to ever recognize her as an independant woman in the future. 

Yeah, this too.

[Pennilenko]

We have tried that track when she sat her mom down. At that time my wife laid out ground rules about her life. They are being very clear. They have said that its Church/Them, or Me. They aren't budging. Not one of them is talking to her other than phone calls asking her what her decision is.

Im not worried about my relationship. Im worried about the long term impact this is going to have on my wife.

Edit: I should add that my wife is super sweet and , really innocently nieve about alot of things. This is hurting her like you cant possibly imagine. My family is a bunch of A-holes, im used to this sort of game from family, so im really much unharmed. My pain is comming from seeing my wife suffer.

[Nebu]

Im not worried about my relationship. Im worried about the long term impact this is going to have on my wife.

Don't.  If they're going to disown her for loving a good man based solely on religious beliefs, then they are making a monumental error.   Your wife just has to decide what she wants.  If the answer is you, then her parents will need to grow up and not only accept that, but be happy for her.  Trust me when I say that this is nothing but a power play on the part of the parents. 

[Venkman]

This sucks man, sorry to hear that. My wife and I are just going through something similar with my own staunchly Roman Catholic clan. In broaching the subject on vacation recently, I quickly realized this is not the type of thing you sit in a room and talk about. Maybe that'd work for some people, but here's how I addressed it.

I hand wrote a letter to my mother. Typing an email felt too impersonal. She's really the only one who's opinion mattered to me on this subject. My siblings pay lip service to it as far as I can tell, but she was raised Roman Catholic, had the schooling, no meat on Fridays all of that. She felt like a failure for not having her eldest child and only son not doing the same for his kids.

My letter told the truth. I have a faith based on a lot of different factors but am not a religious person at all. Because of that, I questioned how my wife and I should bring up our kids. I felt the easy way out was to fake my skepticism, cowbow up and attend mass so the kids could do the same. But I didn't feel that did respect to a) the religion; nor, b) the people who follow it.

That isn't the whole truth of course. I am basically a Christian Agnostic, who sees all that metaphysical stuff through the lens of how I was raised but files it all under the heading of being a good person. That I can instill on my family without the fire and brimstone and all the ways of making them feel guilty about things in the way I was raised to believe (and which took quite some time to deprogram from myself).

But that is in the land of insulting my mother's beliefs. At the end of the day, she's no more going to change her 60+ years of belief than I am going to mold myself back into something I no longer belief. Given those implacable facts, what's the point of actively causing a rift?

Penn, I don't know if this helps your situation at all, as yours seems a lot more combative than mine. Did you ever find out from your wife if she didn't bother telling her folks because she was afraid to? Or did it simply never occur to her that this'd be an issue? That's rhetorical as that won't help within this discussion, but I can tell you my own siblings conduct much of their religious stuff for fear of disappointing our mother. And that's really no way to live.

[Engels]

I can't relay personal experiences, since I don't have any in your shoes, but my mother faced a similar situation with my Catholic grandparents. My dad was a garden variety non-religious agnostic/atheist. Not a religious bone in his body. Grandma was not too pleased. The compromise my mother came up with to appease my grandparents was taking us kids to church. So the long and the short of it is that my sister and I were 'raised' roman catholic in a family with an agnostic father and a mother who was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too smart to buy into the church's falderal. I'm not sure I'm happy with having been raised Catholic, but that is what I am now. I don't go to church, but once you're raised a catholic, its sorta like being raised Jewish. You may eat pork, but you're part of that culture, no matter what.

[Pennilenko]

She really never thought it was going to be an issue. Im sure there is more behind this than just "religion". I just cant put my finger on it. Weve been married going on two years now, and this stuff came up during their visit 4 months ago. I proposed to her up in michigan at her parents house, during christmas, they didnt appear this type of crazy when i was up there. We were engaged for nearly a fricken year on top of that, We met in sept 05, engaged that christmas, married in october the next year.

This really did smack us in the face from somewhere out in left field. I would have thought that if they were really the zealots that they are comming across as, there would have been questioning for me when I asked for permission to do the proposing. Unless they made assumptions about the "type" of guy their daughter would marry and never thought to ask questions. I am also theorizing that she never shared with them that she wasnt interested in catholic doctrine and now they blame me for swinging her from that type of faith.

She has assured me that I am the one for her.(She just got off the phone) I left the room for the conversation. This all unfolded really fast this morning. They have completely written her off. Even though thats out of the way it doesnt mean its easier for her.

Im just looking for advice on behavior and speech that will help her instead of cause more issues. Seriously, I hate my family, and dont waste second thoughts on them. I have no idea how to console my wife. I dont even know how to emotionaly identify with her for empathy, or sympathy. I guess im kind of broken. Common sense tells me this is painfull for her, but i really cant visualize it.

[Reg]

My parents went through the same kind of deal that Engels' did but worse since I'm guessing they're a generation older. My mother was Catholic from a seriously Irish Catholic family and my father was a lip service paying Anglican. In order for them to get married in the Catholic church (and without a church wedding none of her family would have shown up) my dad had to take Catholic lessons from a priest and they had to promise to raise their kids as Catholics.

Five years into their marriage the local priest shows up at the door and accuses my mom of using birth control because there'd been no kids. What he didn't know was that she'd had three miscarriages and was miserable about it. She had my dad throw him out on his ass and that was the end of her career as a Catholic. My brother and I were never even baptised and the only time we were ever in any church was for family weddings and funerals.

Frankly, I'm amazed that this is happening to you. I thought that kind of silliness went out of style 40 years ago.

[Merusk]

You have to ask her, not us, what she needs from you.  What I need from my wife differs from what she needs from me, and we both differ from everyone else.  This is something you learn over time with someone, and this is your first big exposure to it. (For example, my wife says "leave me alone", but I never do it for more than 10 mins.  It gives her time to cry - because she doesn't like doing it in front of me - but then I go in and see if she wants to talk or just wants me to give her hugs.

The worst thing you can do, imo, is treat this like it affects you more than it does.  That's an emotional betrayal.  Tell her you understand if you do, but don't try to pass off you're feeling more than you do. That's how I do things, at least.

My parents went through the same kind of deal that Engels' did but worse since I'm guessing they're a generation older. My mother was Catholic from a seriously Irish Catholic family and my father was a lip service paying Anglican. In order for them to get married in the Catholic church (and without a church wedding none of her family would have shown up) my dad had to take Catholic lessons from a priest and they had to promise to raise their kids as Catholics.

Five years into their marriage the local priest shows up at the door and accuses my mom of using birth control because there'd been no kids. What he didn't know was that she'd had three miscarriages and was miserable about it. She had my dad throw him out on his ass and that was the end of her career as a Catholic. My brother and I were never even baptised and the only time we were ever in any church was for family weddings and funerals.

Frankly, I'm amazed that this is happening to you. I thought that kind of silliness went out of style 40 years ago.

It's very much alive and well.  My coworker had to do the same thing as your father for the same reasons on her husband's side 3 years ago.  Despite not being a practicing Catholic, her husband wouldn't even think of doing anything else because of family pressure and how embarrassed HE'd be to have to confront his family.  She's pregnant now, much earlier than she wanted to be, because of pressure from him and his family not to take birth control now that she's "Catholic."

The whole scene's really fucking ugly.

[K9]

Damn, that's tragic. I wish I could offer advice, but I have no experience dealing with in-laws, or catholics.

Would it placate them if you renewed your vows in front of a priest perhaps?

[Pennilenko]

You have to ask her, not us, what she needs from you.  What I need from my wife differs from what she needs from me, and we both differ from everyone else.  This is something you learn over time with someone, and this is your first big exposure to it. (For example, my wife says "leave me alone", but I never do it for more than 10 mins.  It gives her time to cry - because she doesn't like doing it in front of me - but then I go in and see if she wants to talk or just wants me to give her hugs.

The worst thing you can do, imo, is treat this like it affects you more than it does.  That's an emotional betrayal.  Tell her you understand if you do, but don't try to pass off you're feeling more than you do. That's how I do things, at least.

She went for a walk after the phone call. What you said makes sense. Im going to go with this in a manner that works for us.

[Abagadro]

That's a really shitty situation. People who act like that are frankly mentally ill in my view.  This is the functional equivalent of a death in the close family for your wife so you need to just be supportive for whatever she needs as she grieves. I suspect that after a while the family may come back to reality. It seems odd that they weren't close enough to actually come to the wedding (thus only finding out about its circumstances 2 years after the fact) yet are so bent out of shape about the religion nonsense.

[Oban]

Wow, you are in a tough position there mate.  Best advice I can give is...

Never say anything bad about her family.

Be supportive of her and her choices, but do not change your core beliefs.

[Venkman]

Five years into their marriage the local priest shows up at the door and accuses my mom of using birth control because there'd been no kids. What he didn't know was that she'd had three miscarriages and was miserable about it. She had my dad throw him out on his ass and that was the end of her career as a Catholic

This.

15 years ago, a co-worker of mine had a daughter who was so sick they called in a Priest. He wouldn't administer last rites because she hadn't been baptized in the same religion (while ago, some Christian denomination that escapes me atm). I'd love to believe these were exceptions, but I read too much to have lost hold of that belief long long ago. But again, no reason to bring it up with my Reader's Digest and occasionally GMA family.

[Hawkbit]

Tough situation.

Be supportive, as others mentioned.  Make sure your wife has what she needs.  Other than that, tell the family members that are attempting to disown her that you'll both be there for them when they decide to let you back into their lives.  It opens the door to them so they only have themselves to blame by being assholes. 

Hopefully time will show them their own ignorance. 

[Lantyssa]

We have tried that track when she sat her mom down. At that time my wife laid out ground rules about her life. They are being very clear. They have said that its Church/Them, or Me. They aren't budging. Not one of them is talking to her other than phone calls asking her what her decision is.

Her going to church would be a lie.  They want to belive you are responsible, but the fact is she cannot believe what they want her to.  Belief doesn't work that way.

She needs to make it clear to them her choice is Lie About Belief in Their God For Their Happiness/Be Truthful and you're not a factor in that choice.  At that point, they have the choice of Be A Part of Daughter's Life/Go Away.

And listen to Nebu.

[Signe]

You should secretly have them killed.  It'll be easier to console the wife.  I know I would prefer that to dealing with bitchy parents.  Srsly.

[Trippy]

Is the main problem that she's no longer Cathlolic or that you are an atheist? If it's the first thing then really it's up to your wife to decide what she believes in and whether or not she wants to return to the fold. All you can do is support her decision. If it's the latter you should look into the Unitarian Universalists. Belief in a god is not a requirement to be a member but her parents don't have to know that If somebody put a gun to my head and said "join a church or die" that's who I, as an atheist, would pick. Your wife might enjoy being a member as well.

[Engels]

just wonder what the hell you do in that church

"We gather together to ask the lord's bles..er, ask the diety's ble...er, fuck it"

[Triforcer]

I'm not married, but I want to provide a view somewhat different than what I've seen here.  I don't present it as necessarily the best idea, but depending on the specific facts of your situation, perhaps it is feasible.

If your family doesn't live near you, I'd think seriously about whether superficial acquiescence to their demands would work.  If its as simple as saying "Yep, I saw the light, we're Catholic now, kthxbai" then maybe saying that isn't a terrible idea.  Now, if they are near enough to demand all sorts of conforming behavior (weekly mass attendance, first communion/confession for any eventual kids, etc) that wouldn't work.  It could also embolden them to make other demands.  I don't know them, you do.  Some people are satisfied with just hearing the words, and the REALLY hardcore demand more than that.  Ab's advice could be far, far better depending on your specific details.

Is that the "sacrificial," Thomas More-ish, stand by your principles unto death position?  No.  But your primary concern is minimizing your wife's pain, not taking some sort of abstract moral stand against the primitive rednecks and their laughable beliefs in an imaginary sky god.  Whatever you do, your solution has to be about what results in the best practical situation for your wife, not a solution that makes some sort of political point while leaving the inlaws even angrier. 

[Selby]

Just be prepared for hard times regardless of decision.  My other half has a mother who holds just as much sway as it sounds your family is trying to hold and it's basically destroyed our marriage.  She refuses to walk out and foreclose on the house as that is just childish, but her mother keeps calling her every other day and telling her to do so just to be rid of me.

In-laws with cycles of abuse and ties that bind are VERY difficult to overcome for some people.  She has to be willing to put the phone down and not talk to them until they are ready to accept you and her's relationship.  And I do agree that it is strange that you were married a while back in a non-denominational ceremony yet they didn't attend?  Were they not invited or did they just choose not to attend?  It is odd that they are bringing this up after the time that has passed.

[taolurker]

Wow dude that sucks, and I feel for ya.

Totally crappy situation to be in the middle of, and the only thing I can possibloy compare to in my own experience was with an old girlfriend who was Baptist and whose family was convinced I was a heathen sinner when she told them I was Agnostic. I was raised to be religious, and came to a decision about religion and it's usefulness, and when I explained my system of not questioning the things we can't comprehend, both she and her parents seemed to understand. Being a Baptist didn't keep her from being a slut who cheated on me anyway.

I also can't help but think that this has more to do with you being "Atheist" than anything. This is the equivalent of telling a religious person that you are a Satan worshiper, because you are either evil or need to be saved. Atheists believe there is no God, so saying you're an Agnostic (believing in a higher power we can't comprehend or name and not to question or believe things you can't definitively prove), might actually have been slightly more acceptable.

I agree with the advice given so far, about being supportive, giving it some time and letting her know that this kind of thing shouldn't effect what you already have. The parents injecting this so far after the marriage is something that also weighs in your favor, because if they had objections to you or your beliefs they should have voiced them before you were married.

I also don't know if the main issue here is the religion you (don't) practice, as it is the marriage not taking place with a religious ceremony. If it's the ceremony they really want, tell them and your wife you have no objection (even if you do) to them giving you a second "religious" ceremony to make the marriage "recognized by God".

[Tale]

You planned your wedding to the point that your friend got notary status to conduct it, and you picked a venue. Given that you proposed at her parents' house, did your planning include inviting them? I'm not saying you did anything wrong, just wondering the circumstances of their non-participation in the wedding. Could there be a perception that you decided to exclude them, could that be exaggerating the situation, and could that be addressed?

My best friend is from a Dutch Presbyterian family and he married an American Jew. They had a Jewish wedding conducted by a Jewish marriage celebrant. His staunchly Presbyterian mother stood next to me and as they exchanged vows she screamed and fainted onto me and another guy. The sheer joy of the occasion overpowered his mother's coldness, but she never accepted his wife. They remain happily married and now have a child.

Things stayed icy between them and his mother, but they would determinedly visit her every Christmas and put up with her attitude. Eventually things thawed a little with the emotion of visiting her in hospital when she was dying, but never fully. It's not a sore point now - they have made their own lives and what they have is awesome.

[Arnold]

That's all sorts of fucked up.  It's your life you are talking about.  If they don't like it and can't reconcile the idea, I say, "fuck 'em".

I'm not married, so take it with a grain of salt, but my grandparents on my mom's side were kinda obstinant fucktards with oldschool beliefs that they would not change for anything.  I can totally imagine them doing the same kind of shit.  I remember when it was a big deal because my aunt married A CATHOLIC, who had A BEARD!!!!!  OMFG, THE SKY IS GOING TO FALL AND THE WORLD IS GOING TO END.

[CharlieMopps]

Convert to Catholicism. They're mostly atheists anyways.

If you're really apposed to it, just tell them you would convert but you plan on having children and don't want to let their priests near them.

[Miasma]

If they weren't at the wedding and didn't bother talking about the ceremony for two years then I don't see how they could be that close to her in the first place.  And in hindsight she should have never said you were an atheist, it would have been radically easier to just lie.

Catholicism is all about guilt so it is incredibly easy to cut out family members if you think it will wound them and make them feel bad and guilty about what they did.  If you can make a person feel guilty then it validates yourself.  If you weren't raised Catholic you probably wouldn't be able to understand, it is fucked up, guilt and love are intermingled.  It is much worse in families that call themselves Catholic but don't bother going to church unless it's Easter or Christmas, they get extra fiery because they feel guilty for not adhering to the faith enough and so go apeshit on anyone who is adhering less than they are so that they can feel above them.  It is extremely important not to feed or validate her families desire to make her feel guilty.  Do not let her phone them and start crying, that is exactly what they want.  Do not get angry and emotional.  If they think they are affecting you and hurting your marriage then that will make them very happy and only encourage them.

My family is Catholic and my Dad's mother didn't like my mother so she was very cold and didn't talk to them much.  My Dad's counter threat worked quite well.  He said that cutting people out is a two way street and that if his mother didn't knock it off she would never meet, hear or even see a picture of any grandchildren ever.  My grandmother was forced to drop all her bullshit when I was born.  I was the first grandchild though so it was an extra potent threat.

Oh, also:

I really thought that these were good solid values people, who appeared to care a great deal about their daughter.  It seems that they are not willing to just be happy for us.

Happy doesn't mean anything, it is besides the point.  It is probably ingrained in her family that if you are a legitimately happy person then you are doing something wrong.  This life sucks and its only purpose is to get into the next, they think you have sabotaged seeing her for all of eternity.  You will never be able to reason with them.

[Oban]

If you're really apposed to it, just tell them you would convert but you plan on having children a son and don't want to let their priests near them him.

FIFY

[Broughden]

You should secretly have them killed.  It'll be easier to console the wife.  I know I would prefer that to dealing with bitchy parents.  Srsly.

I agree with this ^ 100%.


My family had the whole "Irish Troubles" right in the family and I grew up through out it all. Mom was no meat on Fridays Catholic and my dad was protestant. I dont speak with anyone in the family anymore.

[Simond]

I also can't help but think that this has more to do with you being "Atheist" than anything. This is the equivalent of telling a religious person that you are a Satan worshiper, because you are either evil or need to be saved.

Oh hey, there's an idea - tell the in-laws that their words on religion have struck a buried chord in you, and you've joined a church. Then invite them to a Black Mass.

[Big Gulp]

I'll echo the "you don't see this much anymore" sentiment.  At least from Catholics, anyway.  I've known more than a few scary ass protestants who'll drone on and on about the cosmic zombie Jew, but Catholics have pretty much left that shit behind unless they're from the old country.

[Reg]

Hearing all this is so strange. The religious fervour died out in my family along with my grandparents. Most are just barely Catholic enough to get themselves married and buried in the church and the rest are agnostics. I don't think we have a single religious fanatic left. I honestly thought that's how it was with most Catholic families in North America at least.

I'm very glad that my Irish background expresses itself purely with heavy drinking at family parties and not so much with all the religious stuff.

[Cyrrex]

Something about this story seems...off.  I don't get how this comes out of the blue after two years.  If they were such religious nutcases, wouldn't that have surfaced long before?  I'm not at all questioning your honesty, Penn - I am wondering if there isn't another piece of information that either you or your wife isn't aware of.  In other words, is it possible that this is only an excuse the family is using to attack you and it's really something else that's at the core of it?  I just don't get how it goes from zero to "him or us" in the blink of an eye.  Seems there would have been warning signs, at the very least.

Sorry you have to go through this, in any case.  Hopefully your wife will one day realize that she is ultimately better off without that kind of judgemental family pressure.

[MahrinSkel]

I hate to drop the turd in the punchbowl, but is there something about your ethnic/racial background that could have set this off?  My first marriage, supposedly my in-laws were against me over religion (they were fundies).  I found out much later that it was really about me being too brown.  Irreconcilable "religious issues" can make a good cover for racism (in that case, "Serpent Seed" theology made the two inseparable).

--Dave

[Paelos]

Practicing Catholics hate the idea of their own marrying non-Catholics. Christians in general don't like the idea of their own marrying non-christians. The Bible warns of yoking yourself to unbelievers through marriage. So, many families get upset when that happens.

Two things come to mind here. #1 - Her family is pissed off that she's left the fold, and you represent the new direction she in taking in her life. It's easy to demonize you as the problem instead of confronting the fact that she is no longer interested in a common faith with them. They are also pissed that they are losing control over her life. Families want to make sure that they have common bonds and influence over the members because they are family. When those bonds start to show signs of breaking, sometimes they go into crisis mode. Similar situations happen when they find a member is gay, for example.

#2 - Your wife is going to feel betrayed. The family was supposed to love and protect her, and it failed miserably. She might also blame herself and/or you in the long run. These kind of things can't be ignored by simply hoping time will salve the wounds. I'd recommend that she talk to someone professionally about the situation to make sure that she can deal with these new issues. They also might have good suggestions on how to reconcile with her family, or just to simply help her move on.

Mahrin's also right. Since we don't know, is there a racial difference between you? That could be a large problem by itself.