2008/2009 Football (Soccer) Thread

[Amarr HM]

Yes but your original argument was that they had no tactics at all and I was talking "bullshit", so to come back with it's simple misunderstanding over soccer terminologies is a bit of a cop out. But I'll humour you in the hope you might learn something yes "crowding out the midfield" was meant to mean, deny them space in which to work which to me usually means applying pressure or just merely a lot of bodies in there and hope they move in the right direction ...you know five across the midfield with two or three hardworking deep players!! This I thought would have been made somewhat apparent with my constant reference to Scholes and his outstanding abilities to work in tight areas and under pressure through great technique and positional play.

[lamaros]

Yes but your original argument was that they had no tactics at all and I was talking "bullshit", so to come back with it's simple misunderstanding over soccer terminologies is a bit of a cop out. But I'll humour you in the hope you might learn something yes "crowding out the midfield" was meant to mean, deny them space in which to work which to me usually means applying pressure or just merely a lot of bodies in there and hope they move in the right direction ...you know five across the midfield with two or three hardworking deep players!! This I thought would have been made somewhat apparent with my constant reference to Scholes and his outstanding abilities to work in tight areas and under pressure through great technique and positional play.

That's not what happened in the game, though. Which is why I make the point. "crowding the midfield" and "pressuring their players" are not interchangeable terms. They can both happen at the same times, true, but they don't have to. In this game in fact it was Utd that had the majority of midfield possession. Their problem was not being able to find the final passes, in part due to the fact that their forwards, Rooney and Tevez, were often dropping back into the midfield. Liverpool did pressure the midfield players, but only when they were in the final third of the pitch, and then they tried to quickly counter.

Carrick missed 5 passes. 4 of those were ball into the final third of the pitch. He also made 3 midfield interceptions (Mascherano and Lucas together made 1, in the final third). Anderson misplaced 2, not counting corners. Only 1 wasn't in the final third of the pitch. Rooney misplaced, 12 (counting corners). All but one was in the final third of the pitch. Park misplaced 1. Final third of the pitch. (Scholes misplaced none from 13, but only played one ball into the final third, and that was a very short pass down the wing). Gerrard misplaced 6 not counting corners. All but one weren't in the final third. When one player misplaces more passes in the midfield than the entire midfield of the other side, you might want to think about what that indicates about the way the two teams were setup.

I could pick out these stats all day, but I'm not sure it's worth it. You can take a look yourself over at the Guardian chalkboards. Both the stats and my memory support the idea that it was Utd that crowded the midfield, and Liverpool that choose to let them advance up the field (letting them play 'high' as Benetiz said they do) and then pressure the passes in the final third and then break and try get in behind the defense.

Edit: My original comment was that I didn't think it was a fact that Benitez had got it 'right'. Not that he didn't have tactics. I think it was a case of Ferguson getting it wrong up forward, and Vidic having a bad day. It's not like Liverpool played all over Utd. They had two brain fades from Vidic to cancel out poor penalties from both sides. Utd played poorly and deservedly lost, but to put that down to a tactical masterstroke and nothing else is pretty flippant.

Edit 2: Made a Chalkboard to demonstrate the point.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/chalkboards/J18D351gFA0g06w7rk20

And interceptions:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/chalkboards/9716A3tO2X48va5H7EX5

Notice the location of where the various teams passing broke down.

[Amarr HM]

I wouldn't use the superlative "masterstroke" but considering Liverpool were the ones who needed to win the game I thought it pretty canny. Where I think you are wrong is Liverpool applied the pressure not in the final third but in front of their own defence and at times up further, but mostly where Mascherano generally operates and United's midfield likes to play it around (your chalkboards whether you choose to see it or not actually reinforce that). & as far as arguing about crowding and pressure yer goin a bit off the rails, I mean do you think Benitez pulled Mascherano aside and said "listen son, today I need you to apply pressure to the opposing midfield ok"?

[Amarr HM]

In reference to using chalkboards and how they can be misleading , take for example the game on Saturday & the pressure being applied to the midfield further up the pitch, Carrick then resorted to punting the ball from his own half to the forwards so a lot of missed passes will then show up in deep areas and in the final third, where forwards received some of the punts but don't have any options around them so ended up giving it away. This is not cause of pressure applied in these areas but because they needed to find a way around Liverpools congested midfield.

Anyhow I think Benitez pretty much mirrored exactly what I said albeit in his own language and your whole basis for your argument is falling apart or getting way too complicated/boring, or is it just that hard to admit you were wrong? The only thing worth discussing is was it a good idea for Benitez to reveal the blueprint on how to beat United or is it a bit much to expect most teams in the Premiership to be able to match the combative Liverpool midfield & the attacking prowess of Torres and Gerrard? Also take into account United only play all out attacking football at home (or away against the lesser teams) and any match that might be a bit cagey/important they resort to a more counterattacking ploy, which basically they should have employed on Saturday. If he got it right it might prove beneficial to the title race or maybe every team already knew this but just aren't Liverpool.

[sigil]

Reminder, Check out Seattle's new team tonight on

I wonder how much work it would be for MS to set up MLS themes, or at least a Sounder theme. It was funny to see.


Also.

ESPN lost the rights to air champions league, English or Spanish.

English is won by Fox Soccer.

Spanish is on Fox Sports Espanol.

 I think that starts up next year? maybe 2011, I don't know how far out they were bidding.

Either way, huge blow to ESPN's soccer coverage.

[HaemishM]

ESPN lost Champion's League to Fox? They must not have tried very hard. I'm going to chalk that up to the economy. Maybe ESPN is trying to focus on more core "American" content to save money.

[sigil]

Attention soccer fans in seattle.

Your team, unless something is horribly wrong with NY, has potential.

And Go. See. Montero.

Holy fuck he was doing some absolutely sick shit out there.

[eldaec]

Liverpool and Chelsea just drew each other in the CL QF, facing Barca (or theoretically Bayern) in the semi. I suppose the pair meeting one round early is what passes for originality. Despite this draw, 08-09 will only feature 4 Liverpool-Chelsea ties, which is a record for the fewest times Liverpool have played Chelsea in a season since Benitez joined the club.

Manchester Utd and Arsenal received byes in the quarters and will face each other in the semis.

Liverpool vs Manchester final would be most probable right now imo.

[Endie]

Liverpool and Chelsea just drew each other in the CL QF, facing Barca (or theoretically Bayern) in the semi. I suppose the pair meeting one round early is what passes for originality. Despite this draw, 08-09 will only feature 4 Liverpool-Chelsea ties, which is a record for the fewest times Liverpool have played Chelsea in a season since Benitez joined the club.

Manchester Utd and Arsenal received byes in the quarters and will face each other in the semis.

Liverpool vs Manchester final would be most probable right now imo.

You had me for a second with the "byes" thing 

I suppose you're right that Liverpool might go into the QF as slight favourites this time round, but it's marginal, and I am even less sanguine about the Barca match.  I'd say a Man Utd appearance in the final is almost inevitable, but I believe they'll most likely be playing the Catalans.

[lamaros]

Utd got by far the best draw of the lot there. Liverpool Chelsea will be too close to call you'd expect, but the winner of that would have to be a good chance at the final. I think they'll both match up well against a Barca side that knows how to attack but is shaky in defense and hasn't really shown a lot in being able to break down welll organised teams.

I don't really give Bayern a chance, though that might hasty, and I think Villarreal could actually get one over Arsenal on a good day.

More Liverpool-Chelsea teeth gnashing? Or are the fans of those sides not as bothered by them matching up again as I would have thought?

[WayAbvPar]

Attention soccer fans in seattle.

Your team, unless something is horribly wrong with NY, has potential.

And Go. See. Montero.

Holy fuck he was doing some absolutely sick shit out there.

Wow that game was fun to watch. I am sure they will have some down times, but that was a hell of a way to start! I am guessing something is really wrong with NY though- other than about a 10 minute stretch in the 2nd half, most of the game was played in their end. And yes, Montero was just abusing their back 4. And he is only 21!! Should be fun to watch him over the next few seasons.

[eldaec]

I suppose you're right that Liverpool might go into the QF as slight favourites this time round, but it's marginal, and I am even less sanguine about the Barca match. 

I agree it is marginal, Liverpool's side of the draw has 3 of top 4 sides imo.

You could argue that us playing at home first in both rounds (which the stats say is a 60:40 disadvantage) actually makes Barca the more likely finalist.

For what it's worth, I think Barca would beat Chelsea, but lose to Liverpool in a semi.

I'm more worried about not making the semi than losing in it.

[sigil]

The point when He had three defenders on him, and used  skill finesse and strength to get through them all, THEN pass it to guy making the  run on the wing. That was something to watch.

And then just abused Petke on the last goal. Absolutely sick. And he made it look effortless.


I want to watch them against rsl, and a little against Toronto. and I REALLY want to see them against Chicago.

[sidereal]

Wow that game was fun to watch. I am sure they will have some down times, but that was a hell of a way to start! I am guessing something is really wrong with NY though- other than about a 10 minute stretch in the 2nd half, most of the game was played in their end. And yes, Montero was just abusing their back 4. And he is only 21!! Should be fun to watch him over the next few seasons.

Chances of him being here a few seasons are low.  It was a total coup getting him out of Colombia, and I suspect he's going to Europe in the near future.  Fantastic game.  The expectation is that Seattle will have a shitty back line this season, but either that's not true or Red Bull have the worst attack on the planet.

It was just announced that Portland is getting a team in '11, along with Vancouver, which had already been announced.  Fierce rivalries incoming!
I already pre-hate both of them for that critical game in the future that one of them will beat us in.

[Endie]

More Liverpool-Chelsea teeth gnashing? Or are the fans of those sides not as bothered by them matching up again as I would have thought?

Well, my wife is a Chelsea fan (has been since the start of the nineties so not just a glory-hunter) and i'm a Liverpool fan, and I can tell you that in this house it's more an air of worried acceptance on both sides than excitement.  Not a statistically significant sample, I admit.

[WayAbvPar]

Chances of him being here a few seasons are low.

Yeah, I found out he is on loan after I posted that. And I agree- he will be in Europe eventually.

[Jobu]

Attention soccer fans in seattle.

Your team, unless something is horribly wrong with NY, has potential.

And Go. See. Montero.

Holy fuck he was doing some absolutely sick shit out there.

Did Ljunberg play? how'd he look?

[sidereal]

He looked like this:


But no, he didn't play.  He's out hurt.  But Alonso and Evans looked solid in Midfield, so he can probably go back to West Ham.

[HaemishM]

Holy shit, did Seattle look good or what? That Montero kid is fucking magic. Yeah, he's going to get snapped up within a year. If he makes it through the summer transfer window, I'll be gobsmacked. Alonso, Nyassi and Evans all appeared to be quality talent as well. Of course, NY looked like total monkey shit most of the game. Goldthwaite just got ABUSED. Their midfield was shit, they gave Angel nothing to work with and even Dane Richards got marginalized. Seattle's season shouldn't be nearly as good as this, but they already look better than both Toronto and San Jose did on their debuts.

Liverpool and Chelsea drawing in the CL is  I've seen this match before. With Guus on the job at Chelsea, I give it even odds.

[eldaec]

It appears we've entered the inevitable 'didn't want that premier league anyway' phase of the season.
 

[sigil]

It appears we've entered the inevitable 'didn't want that premier league anyway' phase of the season.
 

THAT'S MY SPURS!

Great heart, great determination. Some wonderful play there and a hell of a save by Gomes.

and LOL go Fulham 

Also, I think Seattle may be able to hold onto Montero. The pockets of Seattle are as deep as just about anyones out there. Also, it's just one game.  Let's see what happens when they play a team we know has some talent. Lets see what happens as far as budgets and the CBA...

[lamaros]

Woo, the season finally gets interesting.

[Amarr HM]

Has to be said it's one of the most entertaining PL's in a long while. The relegation fight is gonna be a hoot & I hope Newcastle go down as was said earlier in the thread. I think Pool might actually clinch this 

[sigil]

For a season that mere weeks ago was considered dreadfully boring,  things sure changed quickly didn't they.

A ton of teams fighting out for a ticket to Europe, the Relegation fight, The top of the table, Villa trying to top Arsenal I can't think of a single team that can really afford to coast.

WHich of course means Spurs wil probabvly do it and wind up 15th 

[HaemishM]

AND Liverpool is back in the race! 

Wow, did they fucking dismantle Villa or what? I didn't think Villa was that bad, and yes, Liverpool certainly got the benefit of at least one red card penalty. But still... 5-0 is gold, Jerry, GOLD. Not only did it put them above Chelsea (congratulations on losing), but erased the goal differentials between themselves and both Man. U and Chelsea. So now Spurs has beaten Liverpool AND Chelsea. Do they still have a game against United? Maybe erase that game-in-hand advantage Man. U. has? Please?

The relegation battle is going to be tough and ugly. Looking at the table, you could conceivably take any team from 10 on down and put them in thd drop zone with just a few bad weeks. I think Spurs and Man City are safe enough, but from Bolton on down, the margins are just too close to call. Boro is going down and Southgate is probably going to lose his job. Albion is going down but I don't expect them to sack their manager. I think both Pompey and Rovers are safe, and Sunderland, Bolton and Hull have the backbone to at least limp into safety. So it'll be a Stoke City/Newcastle United face off, and I really think the Toons don't have the manager or the players to do it. Big Sam will laugh his ass off if he keeps Rovers up and the Toons drop, and so will I.

I'm hoping Villa turns their shit around and takes fourth. I'm tired of Arsenal being in the Champion's League, and I really like the way O'Neill has put together the Villa team. I really want to see Gareth Berry playing Champion's League with Villa and not with Liverpool. Even thoug he could do well at Liverpool, I'd rather see them get a right-sided midfielder like an Aaron Lennon. Riera is good enough on the left most days.

[Mr_PeaCH]

Spurs do have their away leg at ManU end of April.  On the other hand they play at Anfield on the final week of the season.  (You would hope Tottenham have nothing to play for by then, I suppose.)

I'm now doubtful about Villa's chances in unseating Arsenal; hope they can pull it out because I'd love to see that too.  Either way, taking a bite out of Chelsea's season was great for Spurs.

[sidereal]

(You would hope Tottenham have nothing to play for by then, I suppose.)

Hey now.  Spurs aren't out of the running for 6th.

Personally, most of my EPL attention is focused on anticipating rooting for Wolves in the Premiership next season.  Ebanks-Blake is a machine.

[HaemishM]

Yeah, Wolves have finally put it together again. I'm going to have too many teams to root for in the EPL next season if Hull stays up and Reading and Wolves make it back. Of course, as it is, Reading will still have to win the playoffs, but fingers crossed. They didn't look great against Palace this weekend.

[WayAbvPar]

This gave me a laugh-

[Jobu]

This gave me a laugh-

hehehe

I've actually felt a little guilty/embarassed wearing my ManU jersey when playing because of that shit.

[sigil]

A opposed to feeling guilty/embearrassed for having a shirt with this logo?

 

[Amarr HM]

Whut no way that logo is just made of awesome.

[Endie]

British football club logos look awful, in general.  Not surprising, given when most of them were added or last revised.

[Amarr HM]

I have to say the ManU logo is one of the better ones out there.

[sigil]

Just marks you as a gloryhound