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Trippy
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Reply #35 on: August 28, 2008, 10:20:55 AM

There was a Warhammer MMORPG before WoW?
trias_e
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Reply #36 on: August 28, 2008, 10:21:22 AM

Yeah, a few classes are pretty much ripoffs, but not that many.  I don't see how you can say that any of the tanks are much like WoW Warriors at all.  They use entirely different mechanics and are much more based around the concept of guarding other players.  Engineer/Magus have no equivalent at all in WoW.  Archmage/Shaman are totally different as well, using a ying/yang mechanic that looks to be quite interesting.  The melee healers are not much like paladin/shaman. 

I think this complaint is totally insane, unless you're talking about witch hunter/witch elf specifically which are certainly directly stolen from WoW.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 10:24:03 AM by trias_e »
schild
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Reply #37 on: August 28, 2008, 10:22:00 AM

No, but there was Warhammer. Anyway, Azaroth already decided to be the asshat in this particular thread. ^_^

Also, nothing new in WoW, etc.

Also, Shadow Hunter has no comparable class in WoW far as I can tell.
Trippy
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Reply #38 on: August 28, 2008, 10:25:30 AM

Yeah, a few classes are pretty much ripoffs, but not that many.  I don't see how you can say that any of the tanks are much like WoW Warriors at all.  They use entirely different mechanics and are much more based around the concept of guarding other players.  Engineer/Magus have no equivalent at all in WoW.  Archmage/Shaman are totally different as well, using a ying/yang mechanic that looks to be quite interesting.  The melee healers are not much like paladin/shaman. 

I think this complaint is totally insane, unless you're talking about witch hunter/witch elf specifically which are certainly directly stolen from WoW.
Archmage is very much like a WoW Priest -- i.e. a "light-armor" wearing healer with decent single-target damage.
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Reply #39 on: August 28, 2008, 10:28:17 AM

Except the mechanics are entirely different.  The archmage uses their offensive spells to fuel their healing and vice versa.  This would vastly change the play experience.

Also, I would say the class is much more focused on debuffing, DoTs, and group effects (if you spec for it) than the WoW priest. 
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 10:30:36 AM by trias_e »
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #40 on: August 28, 2008, 10:28:22 AM

First off, bullshit.


Warhammer:age of reckoning IS ripping off wow.

warhammer is a tabletop game, world of warcraft is a computer game. Unless world of warcraft is making you play with pewter mini's then no it's not ripping off warhammer.

Don't get all nerdrage either, this isn't even about lore and if it was then we can only point to tolkien and lovecraft before we even look at these games so gamesworkshop and blizzard can both suck a literary cock.

Warhammer 'age of reckoning' is blatantly using systems(hello battlegrounds) that wow is famous for. Now...it's not a bad thing and no wow didn't invent everything but for fucks 'sake if you don't think warhammer the mmo is taking a lot from wow you are either blind or mildly retarded.

I like warhammer, in fact a lot of the things they are taking from wow are good things and why I like it. I guarentee you though in the tabletop game there's no rage mechanic, in the great warhammer lore there's no 'pet attack' function for white lions. You can take a class from another game, you can re-skin it and call it 'ariel the little mermaid' class but that doesn't mean walt disney invented those game mechanics or isn't straight out copying them.


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cevik
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Reply #41 on: August 28, 2008, 10:29:17 AM

Engineer/Magus have no equivalent at all in WoW.

Unless I missed something, Magus is just a WoW mage that can either focus in direct damage nukes or AE.

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Reply #42 on: August 28, 2008, 10:32:04 AM

You're missing something.  The magus/engineer are about their turrets/daemons, stationary pets that nuke stuff (long range/short range/medium range depending on spec).  They are a versatile class capable of long range/short range dps, utility in lots of debuffs, and various manipulation of their turrets.

Sorcerer/BW are the mage that can focus in dd or ae, and yeah, they are very similar to WoW mages, minus much of their utility in frost/arcane and more focus on pure damage.  Although burnout is a pretty cool mechanic.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 10:34:26 AM by trias_e »
schild
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Reply #43 on: August 28, 2008, 10:33:11 AM

You just nerd raged. Why don't we just call White Lion a ripoff of the creature handler in WoW.

And Battlegrounds? Why is WoW famous for creating any sort of arena combat?

Point being, WoW did nothing original. WAR has it's share of flaws, but the vast majority of the design itself is the natural progression from DAOC. More than that, you don't steal from the first thief. You steal from the source. Calling it WoW is as silly as calling it any other MMOG. You need to go further back if you want to nerd rage effectively. A lot further. Warcraft on the other hand, has and always will be Blizzard not getting the Warhammer license. It's not like they're even hiding it.
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Reply #44 on: August 28, 2008, 10:34:17 AM

You're missing something.  The magus/engineer are about their turrets/daemons, stationary pets that nuke stuff (long range/short range/medium range depending on spec).  They are a versatile class capable of long range/short range dps, utility in lots of debuffs, and various manipulation of their turrets.

Ahh so they are demonology speced warlocks.  Got it.

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Reply #45 on: August 28, 2008, 10:35:52 AM

Actually, I'll just say this: I think WAR would've turned out the same way without WoW, except they wouldn't have gone for lower-end graphics and aimed a bit higher. That's what WoW taught everyone. Get it to play on a modern machine with a shitty integrated graphics card.
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Reply #46 on: August 28, 2008, 10:38:59 AM

Quote
Ahh so they are demonology speced warlocks.  Got it.

Um, I guess there are some similarities.  Maybe you could call them a warlock with a unique pet with mid range AE or long range sniper shot hybrid of some sort.  That would just be getting silly though.

I actually take it back, they aren't much like demonology specced warlocks at all.  Affliction or destruction would actually be more similar.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 10:41:18 AM by trias_e »
cevik
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Reply #47 on: August 28, 2008, 10:42:23 AM

Actually, I'll just say this: I think WAR would've turned out the same way without WoW, except they wouldn't have gone for lower-end graphics and aimed a bit higher. That's what WoW taught everyone. Get it to play on a modern machine with a shitty integrated graphics card.

I agree, I don't see what all of the argument around here is.  There are 4 classes in WAR repeated 6 times except they canned two of the repeats at the last minute.  Tank, Melee DPS, Ranged DPS and Healer.  

Same as every other mmog, nothing new and innovative here other than the bold step of not having hybrids, which is a smart move for balancing.  Of course they still let you spec your tank or your healer into being a hybrid dpser instead of a tank or a healer, so you'll end up with the same "everyone is dps speced" crap that you end up with in WoW.

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Reply #48 on: August 28, 2008, 10:44:50 AM

Um, I guess there are some similarities.  Maybe you could call them a warlock with a unique pet with mid range AE or long range sniper shot hybrid of some sort.  That would just be getting silly though.

Back to square one, they really aren't that different from Mages in WoW.  They are either long range nukers or mid range aers, pretty much the mage functionality.  Their "uniqueness" comes from the fact that they use their pet/turrent to do the long range nuking and/or mid range aeing, but seriously it's the same mechanic with some additional fluff.  Best case scenario is that you end up with a little extra micromanaging of your pet, which, with pet mechanics this last weekend doesn't really sound like much of a bonus. 

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Reply #49 on: August 28, 2008, 10:45:48 AM

You're missing something.  The magus/engineer are about their turrets/daemons, stationary pets that nuke stuff (long range/short range/medium range depending on spec).  They are a versatile class capable of long range/short range dps, utility in lots of debuffs, and various manipulation of their turrets.

Ahh so they are demonology speced warlocks.  Got it.

Yeah, they are just like demonology specced Warlocks, except completely different.
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Reply #50 on: August 28, 2008, 10:46:13 AM

I don't think Mythic in any way set out to innovate so it shouldn't be an insult to point to mechanics that are similar to other games.
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Reply #51 on: August 28, 2008, 10:50:40 AM

I don't think Mythic in any way set out to innovate so it shouldn't be an insult to point to mechanics that are similar to other games.

Well I got the impression that Zealot was supposed to be a buffer/debuffer where they basically marked all their allies and then as they put harbingers on their foes their marks would gain more and more power.  It could be a fun and unique playstyle different from pretty much any other mmog I've played, a buffer that required active play so that the buffs would be worthwhile (a good answer to buff bots).

But instead they are healers.

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trias_e
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Reply #52 on: August 28, 2008, 10:51:15 AM

Quote
I agree, I don't see what all of the argument around here is.  There are 4 classes in WAR repeated 6 times except they canned two of the repeats at the last minute.  Tank, Melee DPS, Ranged DPS and Healer.  

yeah, warrior priest and archmage are so similar.  If it weren't for the model I couldn't even tell the difference.   swamp poop

There aren't 20 unique classes, but who in the hell thought that would ever be a good thing in a PvP game?  There are also not just 4 unique classes.  They hit the WoW sweet spot of 8-9 classes and added extra flavor to the different sides.  Well done I'd say.

Quote
Back to square one, they really aren't that different from Mages in WoW.  They are either long range nukers or mid range aers, pretty much the mage functionality.  Their "uniqueness" comes from the fact that they use their pet/turrent to do the long range nuking and/or mid range aeing, but seriously it's the same mechanic with some additional fluff.  Best case scenario is that you end up with a little extra micromanaging of your pet, which, with pet mechanics this last weekend doesn't really sound like much of a bonus.

Magus/Engineer pets worked just fine since they didn't have to path, as they don't move at all.  Anyways, I'm done.  If you want to call the magus/engineer anything, it would have to be mage/warlock/stationary pet hybrid since they are focused too much on versatility and debuffs to just be mages.  If you want to call that a rip off, go for it, but I would disagree.  Considering we are operating in the same genre under very similar overall game mechanics/structure, I'd say they are quite a bit different.
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Reply #53 on: August 28, 2008, 10:56:01 AM

Quote
warrior priest and archmage are so similar

Not sure about the Tank, melee DPS, or range DPS, but it seems that the healers are also broken into 3 types

Melee healing
ranged DPS healing
super healer
cevik
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Reply #54 on: August 28, 2008, 11:00:41 AM

Quote
warrior priest and archmage are so similar

Not sure about the Tank, melee DPS, or range DPS, but it seems that the healers are also broken into 3 types

Melee healing
ranged DPS healing
super healer

Only with a spec for all three types that can turn them into primarily a dps or primarily a healer, so each of the hybrids can become a full healer, or a full dpser (with the difference being one will be a melee dpser and one will be a ranged dpser), like Shammy or pally in WoW.  Or you can be a fool and try to spec hybrid and be a unique snowflake, but then you'll get steamrolled by min/maxers who realize that specialization is always key in these games and they either turned their hybrid healer into a primary dpser or primary healer.

It's not like you ever see anyone in wow spamming "LFM for Arc, need someone who can half assed heal and half assed dps!11!"  And you'll never see it in WAR either, specialization is always key.

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Reply #55 on: August 28, 2008, 11:01:27 AM

Give me a break, Schild. I'm not talking about tabletop games, or lore, or whatever the fuck else. Or else EVERYONE RIPPED OFF D&D! AND EVERYONE RIPPED OFF JRR TOLKIEN!!!! ETC OMG.

I was commenting, very very clearly, on classes and the mechanics of those classes. Quite a few of them are unoriginal ripoffs, period.

Not a huge problem as nobody has had an original fucking idea in their pretty little head for years now, but they DID promise otherwise the last time I checked. Which was my point.


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Reply #56 on: August 28, 2008, 11:03:55 AM

Well, I can't speak for prior promises because I don't follow MMOGs that closely (never have, you'd be hard pressed to find me quoting pre-release shit on MMOGs unless I did the interview, and even then, I forget it. Nothing matters til I can play). I just follow the overall things that are said. The broad sweeping shit. That said, following things as closely as you obviously did is an easy way to get pissed off more than I normally do. It's nice to see someone else do that before me though.

tl;dr you're getting pissed because you trusted developers before the game got released - again. :( c'est la vie, another mmog, same cycle, same as it ever was.
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Reply #57 on: August 28, 2008, 11:09:38 AM

Well, I can't speak for prior promises because I don't follow MMOGs that closely (never have, you'd be hard pressed to find me quoting pre-release shit on MMOGs unless I did the interview, and even then, I forget it. Nothing matters til I can play). I just follow the overall things that are said. The broad sweeping shit. That said, following things as closely as you obviously did is an easy way to get pissed off more than I normally do. It's nice to see someone else do that before me though.

tl;dr you're getting pissed because you trusted developers before the game got released - again. :( c'est la vie, another mmog, same cycle, same as it ever was.

The video I watched was passed to me during a ZA raid like two years ago. I had no idea what the classes of Warhammer were until about a week ago.

So the insults were fantastic, but "yeah ok sry dude" would have sufficed.

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Reply #58 on: August 28, 2008, 11:11:49 AM

Quote
The video I watched was passed to me during a ZA raid like two years ago. I had no idea what the classes of Warhammer were until about a week ago.

Wait. Well, first, I wasn't apologizing - I was thanking you for reminding me why I don't listen to 99% of the shit I here before a game is playable. Secondly, two years ago? Really? We've both been around long enough to know better. You're killing me here.

Edit: I know, I know, I can be a dick. Ohhhhh, I see.
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Reply #59 on: August 28, 2008, 11:18:41 AM

Thank you, honey. I still love you.

Just sayin' - Promising destructable terrain or something and then not delivering is one thing. Promising 47 classes, all unique, no healers, and pledging to totally break the paradigm CUZ WE HATE THAT SHIT then going ahead and lifting classes from WoW is, uh, a little more halfassed and conspicuous.

« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 11:20:26 AM by Azaroth »

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Reply #60 on: August 28, 2008, 11:56:42 AM


Only with a spec for all three types that can turn them into primarily a dps or primarily a healer, so each of the hybrids can become a full healer, or a full dpser (with the difference being one will be a melee dpser and one will be a ranged dpser), like Shammy or pally in WoW. 

This is wrong from what I have experienced. Granted I havent played Shaman, but I have played all the other healer classes and their specs are not, Damage, Healing, Utility like WoW. They all have a Direct, Over Time, and AE specs. The direct line increased Direct Damage and Direct healing, Over time is HoTs and DoTs, and AE is AE.

Also, in WAR specing down one line doesnt make you completely useless in the other lines ala WoW, just better at the line you chose.

**EDIT - I forgot to note that the above doesnt apply to the MHealers.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 12:05:18 PM by Morfiend »
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Reply #61 on: August 28, 2008, 12:03:31 PM

This is wrong from what I have experienced. Granted I havent played Shaman, but I have played all the other healer classes and their specs are not, Damage, Healing, Utility like WoW. They all have a Direct, Over Time, and AE specs. The direct line increased Direct Damage and Direct healing, Over time is HoTs and DoTs, and AE is AE.

Also, in WAR specing down one line doesnt make you completely useless in the other lines ala WoW, just better at the line you chose.

We'll have to see how it plays out at rank 40 then I guess.

EDIT:  From what I see about the spec lines they appear to be either spec in healing, spec in debuffing or spec in damage.  i.e. with a Zealot is Alchemy for healing, Ritual for debuffing and Witchcraft for damage, or for an Archmage it's Isha for healing, Asuryan for damage and Vaul for debuffing. 
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 12:05:27 PM by cevik »

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trias_e
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Reply #62 on: August 28, 2008, 12:05:39 PM

Quote

Only with a spec for all three types that can turn them into primarily a dps or primarily a healer, so each of the hybrids can become a full healer, or a full dpser (with the difference being one will be a melee dpser and one will be a ranged dpser), like Shammy or pally in WoW.  Or you can be a fool and try to spec hybrid and be a unique snowflake, but then you'll get steamrolled by min/maxers who realize that specialization is always key in these games and they either turned their hybrid healer into a primary dpser or primary healer.

It's not like you ever see anyone in wow spamming "LFM for Arc, need someone who can half assed heal and half assed dps!11!"  And you'll never see it in WAR either, specialization is always key.

You are neglecting the fact that there are three totally different kinds of healers in WAR.  Warrior Priests and Disciples literally cannot heal without beating on people.  Archmages/Shaman can't heall well without dps/debuffing.  So if you spec damage for any of these classes, you are augmenting something that you have to do anyways, and by proxy making your healing more effective.  Also, Archmage gets very effective crowd control and debuffing for their alternate lines, things that are obviously very useful in PvP.  I can't speak for the melee healers, but I highly doubt a non-heal spec archamage will be inferior in PvP.

The only healer class that is analagous to WoW is the zealot/runepriest.  And these healers get improvement to their healing no matter what line they spec, so the point is moot.

Edit:  The runepriest gets bonus to healing no matter what line they spec.  The zealot does not.  That is a little surprising to me considering they were supposed to be mirrors.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 12:08:31 PM by trias_e »
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Reply #63 on: August 28, 2008, 12:25:13 PM

I have played a Runepriest for about 95% of my beta time.  I have to say that they are quite different from many other healers in the game, and a good bit different from the priest in WoW.  The most obvious difference is not in the class but in the targetting (which Cevik mentioned earlier).  Honestly I don't know why WoW has not added friendly targets (unless they did since I left).

Morfiend brought up a good point in that just because I spec down the damage line (which I did... dang I am addicted to Rune of Fire) does not mean I can't heal.  The fact that I use my +damage -healing tactic does not help, but I can still keep myself and a couple tanks up in open field RVR.

This is probably the second best healer I have played... second to the Cleric in Vanguard.  Of all the things I hated about that game, I sure loved my dwarf cleric.
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Reply #64 on: August 28, 2008, 12:26:01 PM

Edit:  The runepriest gets bonus to healing no matter what line they spec.  The zealot does not.  That is a little surprising to me considering they were supposed to be mirrors.

Actually, Zealots work the same way as Runepriests insofar as having three mastery paths based on 1) direct effects, 2) duration effects, and 3) area effects.  Heals/offense go up in each line, so your original understanding of these mirror classes is correct.

I know the Zealot description on the main Warhammer site as well as wardb implies otherwise, but their mastery lines are organized as the Runepriest - by spell type.  In contrast, it is the Archmage/Shaman that has to pick to specialize in heals, offense, or de/buffs. 

The idea of getting heals/offense boosted in each tree has me considering rolling a Runepriest/Zealot despite HATING staring at group health bars so much I never knew the layout of any area nor what any mob looked like.
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Reply #65 on: August 28, 2008, 12:29:52 PM

Health bars only became an issue for me in Warbands.  Actually that is still one of my beefs with the game, so much so that our guild will likely not use them but instead just run 6 man groups linked up over Vent.  The F-key controls worked well when healing because the players health does not even pop up on the screen until it gets hit.  It is easy enough to see if it is F2-6 getting beat on without moving my eyes from the action, so I could heal and not have to stare at the "Party" menu.  Somehow they killed the F-keys when you make a warband, and they make the prominent bar the Action Points... so for a while I kept healing people who were using AP instead of losing health.
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Reply #66 on: August 28, 2008, 01:04:11 PM

because the players health does not even pop up on the screen until it gets hit.
I really hate that.
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Reply #67 on: August 28, 2008, 01:15:55 PM

Quote
Ahh so they are demonology speced warlocks.  Got it.

Um, I guess there are some similarities.  Maybe you could call them a warlock with a unique pet with mid range AE or long range sniper shot hybrid of some sort.  That would just be getting silly though.

I actually take it back, they aren't much like demonology specced warlocks at all.  Affliction or destruction would actually be more similar.
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Reply #68 on: August 28, 2008, 01:23:51 PM

Health bars only became an issue for me in Warbands.  Actually that is still one of my beefs with the game, so much so that our guild will likely not use them but instead just run 6 man groups linked up over Vent.  The F-key controls worked well when healing because the players health does not even pop up on the screen until it gets hit.  It is easy enough to see if it is F2-6 getting beat on without moving my eyes from the action, so I could heal and not have to stare at the "Party" menu.  Somehow they killed the F-keys when you make a warband, and they make the prominent bar the Action Points... so for a while I kept healing people who were using AP instead of losing health.

Can't you change that in the settings menu if you scroll to the bottom? I know there was some options about when the health bar would show up, but I'm not sure if it applied to Warbands as well.

Have you tried the internet? It's made out of millions of people missing the point of everything and then getting angry about it
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Reply #69 on: August 28, 2008, 02:07:31 PM

because the players health does not even pop up on the screen until it gets hit.
I really hate that.

You can change it in the interface.
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