Core vs Open server type

[Kirth]

Great Write up (not by me):

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56766

First of all, hooray for the NDA lift!

Now a huge majority of the community has been very confused about Core vs Open with the NDA in place. Now that it's down I, and many other beta testers, will be able to give you true insight on how it works.

First, I'll give you the hard facts, then I'll give you my impressions of how both rulesets will play out.

First of all, to clear some misconceptions and assumptions.

We have never played an Open ruleset in beta. We have only had access to Core. We have been told specifically by the devs that the Open ruleset will be implemented by simply permanently flagging you for RvR. This causes some problems that a lot of you were afraid of, but really it isn't that bad.

The main problem is this: the chicken is DIRECTLY related to your RvR flag, and not based on what zone you are in per se. That means on an Open server, you can never go back to lower tiers and complete any content that you may have missed. We have been specifically told by the devs that this is the case, and there's not an exception unless they have changed their thoughts in the past week or two.

And before I go on, the cutoff levels of the tiers are 11-12, 21-22, 31-32. So when you hit 12 in a tier 1 zone, you would turn into a chicken instantly if you are flagged. Oh and I personally have never tested going to tier 3 at rank 40, and I do not know if you're chickened there or not. If any elder tester would enlighten me please? I do know that at one point the devs stated there was a chicken mechanic in tier 3, but then I heard some testers saying they tried it and were not chickened although I have a sneaking suspicion that they simply made rank 31 templates and went to tier 3, in which case they wouldn't have got chickened.

Just as a heads up, I found a lair in tier 1 with a level 40 hero mob so on an Open server, you will never be able to defeat him. I'm sure there are others in the other zones as well.

On a similar tangent, any support abilities cast on a flagged player will flag you. I was running through tier 1 at rank 22 and healed someone but they were flagged and I got turned into a chicken >_<.

Oh and to clear the misconception, you do NOT get flagged in enemy PvE territory. Well, actually I think you get flagged in the really lowbie chapter areas, but as a rank 22 shaman I explored well over 60% of Chrace (Tier 1 high elf) and didn't get chickened. I simply haven't walked to the rest of the areas. I did get flagged in the chapter 4 dwarf zone in Mount Bloodhorn though. But it was only like, RIGHT next to the town, not in the surrounding PvE areas. This is NOT a bug. You actually have a LOT of content in your enemy's PvE zones. There are warcamps and towns all over the world, and this is a good thing. It's nice because you can actually quest and stuff in whatever scenery you desire. Also it's really nice for the lore and stuff because you actually feel the perpetual warfare, even in the PvE content. It also helps lead you to the RvR zones.

But now I need to talk about map layout. A lot of people have been whining about not being able to attack people in the PvE zones or whatnot and that's the main argument for Open servers. Don't get me wrong, I used to be an Open server fanatic so I know where you're coming from. There are two things that are rather contradictory about the game design in this though.

First of all, the way the zones are set up is mostly perfect for the Core ruleset. When you actually get into the game you'll understand a lot better. Like when you start off, you simply do not expect there to be any PvP. It's hard to explain. You might be theorycrafting all your PvP fantasies but the game simply isn't built that way. If you want to PvP at rank 1 you can, but I don't see why anyone would ever PvP in the PvE zones. They just aren't built that way. The first like 60% of the Mount Bloodhorn zone, I don't see how I'd ever see an enemy there. But then comes the contradiction...

There are these PQs that have some special name I believe but basically you race your enemy realm to beat the PQ first. So in one area there will be two sides, say Greenskins vs Dwarfs. There are a bunch of NPC mobs and the first objective is to kill 100 Dwarfs, or kill 100 Greenskins. You are racing your enemy realm to reach that limit before the other. Sadly, in Core servers that means you will be PvE'ing right next to your mortal enemy. HOWEVER, I have noticed that these types of PQs are pretty deep into your own territory, I never really saw any dwarfs at the Greenskin contested PQ at all. Furthermore, this is tier 1 we're talking about. Once you've played through tier 1 once, it shouldn't take more than about 6 hours to play through it rank 1-12. And this is just one of like, 10+ PQs in the zone. From my experience, while leveling normally so far I have only seen about 4-5 unflagged Order players, even on the contested PQs.

TL;DR: facts

So to wrap things up as far as the facts go, in tier 1, 2, and *maybe* 3, you will be chickened if you are too high level and PvP flag. In Open, that is all the time, you cannot go back and complete old content. There are a very very small amount of PQs where you fight alongside your mortal enemy unflagged (if you choose). The world design is very nice for Core, and I don't expect much PvP in the PvE areas even on an Open server. Only like 5% of your PvE experience.

So now I just want to talk about my general impressions, even though I gave some already.

Well the Core server is definitely the way to go in my opinion. If you like PvE, there will be a ton of it, if you like PvP, there will be a ton of it. There's almost always a huge perpetual struggle going on in the Empire vs Chaos pairing. (Kind of disappointing by the way, I wish more fighting would occur in Greenskin vs Dwarf!). Usually consists of about 30 people in each realm going back and forth over a battlefield objective. It's really epic. And since a lot of the main PvP incentives are in *gasp* the RvR zones, then a lot of people will be there to fight at all times. It's going to be extremely hard to find any good fights in the PvE zones, on both the Open and Core servers. The open world PvP is really good in Core already.

Oh and, to put it bluntly, if you're a griefer, play a support class. You can go around and heal friendly mobs while your enemy grinds on them, it's hilarious. You can also help prevent your enemy from winning the contested PQs by healing the NPCs they are trying to kill.

If tier 3 is chickened, Open servers are really going to suck because you'll never be able to go to Mount Gunbad after level 31. The dungeon is going to be really hard and it's going to be difficult to find a bunch of rank 30 players to do the hardest wing with. Normally, I'd expect to be going back to that dungeon even at rank 35-40.

I know some of the PQs in tier 2 are really hard. My guild group basically stepped all over chapter 1-9 and then we got to chapter 10 and even though we were all around rank 20-21 (the final levels of tier 2) we still failed the PQ. Granted it was only 6 of us but still, it'd be nice to go back and finish that at 23 or 24.

Also, there is SO MUCH content in the game. If you want to experience the whole game on one character do NOT go Open. You will outlevel a tier before even finishing all the content in a single pairing, not to mention the other 2 pairings.

TL;DR impressions

Pick Core if: You care more about going back and filling your tome and finishing old quests or even recent quests (say tier 2 quests for a rank 20~ player at rank 22) than PvP'ing once in a blue moon in the PvE areas even though you could join a scenario or go to open world RvR and get in the fray immediately.

Pick Open if: You have a thirst for blood and would never do something silly like explore or go do old quests or look for lairs, and you can't stand seeing your enemy unflagged even if it's only once or twice in your entire WAR career.

If you have any more questions or need me to clear anything else up in relation to Core vs Open and world design let me know.

EDIT: One last note. On open servers there is no bolster buff in open world RvR. The bolster buff will make your stats/abilities scale to rank 8 if you're under rank 8 in a tier 1 zone. This basically means you're useless in open world RvR until at least 6+ on open servers, whereas in core you can do something useful right away, depending on your class. Melee classes can't do much until they get rank 4 or 5 abilities, but that takes like 30 minutes to an hour. So in short, open caters more toward 'PvE until I'm high enough to PvP'.

[tazelbain]

Sandbagging and spawn camping are my two concerns with open RvR servers. A strong Chicken mechanic takes care of sandbagging.  The rez points have high-level guards, so there can't be much spawn camping.  It sounds pretty fun.

If you cast buffs, its really easy to get flagged.

[kildorn]

Sandbagging and spawn camping are my two concerns with open RvR servers. A strong Chicken mechanic takes care of sandbagging.  The rez points have high-level guards, so there can't be much spawn camping.  It sounds pretty fun.

If you cast buffs, its really easy to get flagged.

There's warcamp camping. Same rules as portal keep camping in DAOC (don't get in guard aggro range, camp away), same level of stupid to participate in it (no kills, no xp, no reknown, worth more to fall back to another choke point and fight normally)

[Vinadil]

Most warcamps have artillery too (at least starting in Tier 2).  So, anyone trying to "stay out of guard range" also needs to stay out of cannon range.  We had so much fun one night with about 10 of us luring 30+ destro into cannon range and then watching them blow up.  I cannot see it being much fun for Either side for many nights in a row, but it was a fun night teaching the Destro side about feints and such.

[Hawkbit]

Before I read that I was going to roll open.  Now, it just seems silly not to play on a core server.  Makes me wonder why they're even going with open rulesets. 

[murdoc]

Before I read that I was going to roll open.  Now, it just seems silly not to play on a core server.  Makes me wonder why they're even going with open rulesets. 

Yup, in exactly the same boat. My small band of merry men were going to roll open, but core really seems to be the way to go.

[tazelbain]

There were to groups of people who were making a lot of noise: people that are morally opposed to every finding being in a situation where they couldn't attack someone on the opposing team and people wanted the game to be more "hardcore".  Open RvR is an attempt to appease them. As long it doesn't eat up development time it's no big deal to me.

I wish they'd put up a beta open RvR server so we can try it out.

[Vinadil]

I wish they would let us test it too... mostly because my guild really wants to go this direction but I think long-term it is going to be a mistake.  It won't hurt the hardcores much, they can just re-roll and be up to speed on a new server... but it will leave all the casuals with a larger hill to scale possibly.  I suppose we will see how it turns out.

[Morfiend]

My group of guys are going "Core". I wanted the Open ruleset but after hearing that you will be Chickened in all lower tiers all the time, I changed my mind.

[Triforcer]

Crap.  I was hardcore about open, but love to explore and just walk around zones.  I will go core if I means I can keep going back to my old PvE zones. 

[Morfiend]

Crap.  I was hardcore about open, but love to explore and just walk around zones.  I will go core if I means I can keep going back to my old PvE zones. 

Well, you can go back on any ruleset, but on Open you will be a chicken the whole time.

Also, the Open ruleset doesnt have the "Level boost in PVP zones". Those two thing clenched it for me. Core for sure.

[schild]

I imagine Bat Country will be Core, but I"m not gonna be the one deciding.

[Calantus]

I'll roll on the most hardcore Oceanic server regardless of what ruleset it is. To me the ruleset is secondary. In WoW I hate PVP servers because I hate being ganked while PVEing (level differences, being on low health from mobs, escort quests, etc), but I won't roll PVE because then you're playing with less hardcore PVPers.

[Kirth]

I'll roll on the most hardcore Oceanic server regardless of what ruleset it is. To me the ruleset is secondary. In WoW I hate PVP servers because I hate being ganked while PVEing (level differences, being on low health from mobs, escort quests, etc), but I won't roll PVE because then you're playing with less hardcore PVPers.

You miss the green text on this?

Heres another tid bit of info that might help your server choice. in your sides PVE area (usuially seprated by the RvR area in each zone as well as geographically). most of the monsters and friendly to the other side.

[Vinadil]

Crap.  I was hardcore about open, but love to explore and just walk around zones.  I will go core if I means I can keep going back to my old PvE zones. 

Well, you can go back on any ruleset, but on Open you will be a chicken the whole time.

Also, the Open ruleset doesnt have the "Level boost in PVP zones". Those two thing clenched it for me. Core for sure.

That is the first I have heard of the "no Level boost in PvP" part.  I will add that to my list of Cons on the guild discussion...

[Calantus]

I'll roll on the most hardcore Oceanic server regardless of what ruleset it is. To me the ruleset is secondary. In WoW I hate PVP servers because I hate being ganked while PVEing (level differences, being on low health from mobs, escort quests, etc), but I won't roll PVE because then you're playing with less hardcore PVPers.

You miss the green text on this?

Heres another tid bit of info that might help your server choice. in your sides PVE area (usuially seprated by the RvR area in each zone as well as geographically). most of the monsters and friendly to the other side.

No green text. The Oceanic PVP crowd are used to all rolling on the same server, so one Oceanic server is going to be packed with the most hardcore PVPers and thus be the hardcore PVP server. I'm going to roll on that server whatever ruleset it is because the people you play with in a MMO are more important than being able to go to lowbie zones without turning into a chicken or being able to kill any enemy anywhere.

[eldaec]

Can someone explain what the rulesets actually are?

And specifically, are there any cases where enemies wander about the same zone unable to attack each other?

Also, can enemies speak to each other?

Obviously I'm hoping the answers are no and no, but I expect to be disappointed...

[tazelbain]

Read the open vs core thread. D'oh

yes unless you play on open.  The most part the game guides you past each so doesn't happen much unless you are trying on purpose.

no.  Standard jump on corpse and various emotes here.

[Nonentity]

My vote is on open.

That's just my two cents. I mean, with just how friggin' fast you can level, and how useless the PvE content seems, I don't really see a reason I'd ever want to go back into previous zones anyways.

It's not like you can have a group of Rank 40 people stomping the lower levels anyways, so that's fine.

[Kail]

My vote is on open.

I'd strongly prefer Core or RP.  In my view, being cut off from doing most of the game once you outlevel it (and, apparently, never being able to even see parts of it, if that post is accurate) is not even remotely an even tradeoff to being able to whack Orcses as they try to PvE.  It's not like PvP is going to be hard to find, even on the most Carebearesque Core server, and I believe you can still flag yourself for PvP (without having to worry about being one-shotted by bored level capped characters) if, for some reason, you want to PvP in the PvE area.  I can get by with seeing the occasional unflagged Dark Elf if the alternative is being eternally confined to about 20% of the content once I hit cap.  Especially with something like the Tome of Knowledge keeping track of what all I have and haven't done, being able to fill in the blanks sounds like something I'd have fun doing, and won't be able to do on an Open server.

[Nonentity]

I have NEVER had the Tome of Knowledge enhance my play in this game. Not once.

Maybe at later levels, but I doubt it.

It just doesn't seem worth it.

[Sjofn]

I have NEVER had the Tome of Knowledge enhance my play in this game. Not once.

Maybe at later levels, but I doubt it.

It just doesn't seem worth it.

Some people (cough cough Ingmar cough) are really, really, really OCD about lighting up "yes I did this!" buttons, and the Tome of Knowledge is like every system that appeals to that set of players rolled into one giant loregasm for 'em.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I have NEVER had the Tome of Knowledge enhance my play in this game. Not once.

Maybe at later levels, but I doubt it.

It just doesn't seem worth it.

Some people (cough cough Ingmar cough) are really, really, really OCD about lighting up "yes I did this!" buttons, and the Tome of Knowledge is like every system that appeals to that set of players rolled into one giant loregasm for 'em.

I know jack about warhammer, so when I went and saw the giant obelisk in the inevitable city I decided to go read up on it since it looked so cool. Some people do enjoy lore and reading it at your own pace is awesome.

[Nonentity]

Yeah - it's cool that it's there and to read it and stuff, but going OCD to make sure it's fully filled out is not what I'm playing this game for - the only things you can unlock are titles and PvE only tactics anyways.

I'd rather have Open RvR. It's fun!

[schild]

Now that I fully understand Open vs Core, let me say this:

Open is a dumb, dumb, dumb ruleset in a game where PvE is meaningly. They need true open - none of that chicken bullshit. Or just core. Mythic should know better than to think their non PvP content will somehow attract people from WoW. Horrible design decision.

[Sjofn]

The chicken thing strikes me as tremendously lazy. I'm down with them not wanting people able to roll over little newbies in their newbie area, but I am not down with them doing it in the laziest way possible. Hopefully ONE DAY they'll realise that knocking people down to the "right" level is a way better solution, but I won't hold my breath.

Open servers can bite me anyway, but it seems like they're totally setting themselves up for failure as it is currently (as far as that ruleset is concerned, I mean).