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Author Topic: Combat wheel?  (Read 6969 times)
jpark
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Posts: 1538


on: November 03, 2004, 07:48:33 AM

Started beta last night and while I understand the concept of the wheel - but my execution is a different matter :)

I am screwing up.  So this thing appears with a set of icons (sword etc.) around in a circle - I click raondomly on one of the icons and then another thingy appears - and it says the action has been successfully performed?

Someone provide a link or explanation for the thinking impaired?

"I think my brain just shoved its head up its own ass in retaliation.
"  HaemishM.
Aenovae
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Posts: 131


Reply #1 on: November 03, 2004, 11:34:47 AM

When I first started using the wheel, this post answered some of my questions.  It's an excellent description of how to use the wheel in groups.

The poster updates the post regularly with more information (and better explanations) as the players learn more.

Note that you can't even complete the wheel solo until you reach a certain level (about 5 iirc).  Completing the wheel is very easy solo - the hard part is completing it in groups since you all share the same wheel and can interrupt each other's chains.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #2 on: November 03, 2004, 06:45:48 PM

The big thing is to right click on your skills, and hit examine. You'll see two icons on that screen. One is the icon on your hotkey bar. The other will be the icon that the wheel uses. You just have to keep in mind which is which.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Trippy
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Posts: 23612


Reply #3 on: November 03, 2004, 07:32:25 PM

Quote from: jpark
I am screwing up.  So this thing appears with a set of icons (sword etc.) around in a circle - I click raondomly on one of the icons and then another thingy appears - and it says the action has been successfully performed?

What archetype are you playing? Here are the most basic HO combos for each of the archetypes:

Fighter: Fighting Chance -> Wild Swing -> Taunt
Mage: Arcane Augar -> Lightning Burst -> Lightning Burst
Priest: Divine Providence -> Smite -> Smite
Scout: Lucky Break -> Evade -> Quick Strike

Make sure you are "locked" with an encounter before performing the HO starter since it doesn't actually attack the target.

I'm guessing at least one of the characters you are playing is a Priest so here's a video of the basic Priest HO:

EQ2 Priest Combat Wheel 01 (9.66MB, WMV9)

This was done in "slo mo" using the mouse to click on spells (though FRAPS doesn't capture cursor movements) so you can see the tooltips and waiting for the buttons to flash before proceeding to the next step.

Here's a video doing the same thing except faster, using keyboard hotkeys and queued actions:

EQ2 Priest Combat Wheel 02 (7.38MB, WMV9)
Lanei
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Posts: 163


Reply #4 on: November 03, 2004, 08:24:22 PM

My only real complaint about the addition of the 'Make and HO happen' skill in this last patch is that it removed my ability to start an HO chain with backstab while solo.

Previously, the scout HO was sword, coin, optional second coin to re-roll the effect, sword.  

The 10 Rogue skill is backstab, go figure.  Its a sword skill for HOs..  so I could open with backstab, then evade/cheap shot/dirty tricks for the coin, use a second coin if I wanted to try for a different effect, and then Quick strike to complete the chain.  With a little queueing, this was fast, plus once I hit 11 and got Flurry, which is anoother non-positional 'sword' skill, I could basically rip off TWO HOs to open a fight, with only the refresh time of quick strike delaying the second.

Now, though... In addition to the 10 second recast time on Lucky break, I can only use backstab as a 'sword' skill when I'm grouped, and not tanking, and behind the mob. (Plus the game is much more picky about 'behind' than EQ1 was)

Overall its a pretty fair reduction in my solo damage output.

---  

Thinking about it, my scenario above is probably more likely to be why they added a skill like lucky break with the 10 second re-use than any need for a simplification of activating HOs.
jpark
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Reply #5 on: November 03, 2004, 09:37:35 PM

Thanks for that input guys - yup Trippy I am playing a Priest :)

"I think my brain just shoved its head up its own ass in retaliation.
"  HaemishM.
Trippy
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Posts: 23612


Reply #6 on: November 04, 2004, 05:32:33 AM

Quote from: Lanei
Now, though... In addition to the 10 second recast time on Lucky break, I can only use backstab as a 'sword' skill when I'm grouped, and not tanking, and behind the mob. (Plus the game is much more picky about 'behind' than EQ1 was)

Yup Scouts lost some of their ability to chain HOs one after another with this change, and low level Scouts also got nerfed in that they lost 2 attributes from their starter chains (they had 6 attributes, now they only have 4). And to make things worse, Fighters now have 4 attributes around their starter chain making them just as useful in terms of triggering group HOs as Scouts. The only thing special Scouts bring to HOs in a group is their ability to reroll it, which is marginally useful at best. Oh well. At least this change fixed low level Priests so they can solo again.
Signe
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Muse.


Reply #7 on: November 04, 2004, 06:02:07 AM

I haven't played in some time, but I understand that the Priest HO is either broken or has been nerfed. I've seen a lot of recent complaints.  I think the whole HO thing might work in groups of people who know each other and play often together.  Maybe TS could help?  I don't know how it'll go in pick up groups... sounds like it could be a bit of a mess.  It's interesting and I'll be curious to see what happens to it and how people feel about it in time.

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Numtini
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Reply #8 on: November 04, 2004, 06:58:16 AM

TS won't help, they happen too quickly. It's really something you need to organize ahead of time.

It seemed to me last night that the damage from HOs has gone way way down.

If you can read this, you're on a board populated by misogynist assholes.
kaid
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Reply #9 on: November 04, 2004, 07:02:11 AM

The change to the system really hurt the scouts. They had so many ways to open their streak that they could fire off HO's pretty fast and furious when solo.

kaid
Trippy
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Reply #10 on: November 04, 2004, 04:26:21 PM

Quote from: Signe
I haven't played in some time, but I understand that the Priest HO is either broken or has been nerfed. I've seen a lot of recent complaints.

The problem with Priest HOs was fixed in the 11/1 megapatch which added the dedicated HO starter skill. The 10/28 megapatch took away Druid HoT spells from the non-Druid Priests which broke the way HOs worked for Priests.
jpark
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Reply #11 on: November 06, 2004, 11:53:15 PM

Quote from: Signe
I haven't played in some time, but I understand that the Priest HO is either broken or has been nerfed. I've seen a lot of recent complaints.  I think the whole HO thing might work in groups of people who know each other and play often together.  Maybe TS could help?  I don't know how it'll go in pick up groups... sounds like it could be a bit of a mess.  It's interesting and I'll be curious to see what happens to it and how people feel about it in time.


Priest though Divine Providence can start HO chains - which is great - in the past week I have been playing.

On an unrelated note I can see some anti-grouping issues here.  I start an HO but with some groups it rarely functions - arguing against teaming up with inexperienced players.  More importantly the shared debt system is a real "stranger not welcome" sign or "if your not higher level than me you are a risk"...

In terms of overall group behavior - correct me if I am wrong guys - but the taunt is accompanied by an animation.  And I have endured aggro with mortal outcomes without seeing this animation from numerous tanks.  If this is accurate - it continues to be a great puzzle to me that arguably the simplest class continues (EQ, SB, CoH) to be the most poorly played.

Back to the topic - I do depart from the HO since it often demands I do damage when in fact I need to heal the party.  That is a problem.  HO's for me involve attacking more than healing.  In playing a low level scout I found the opposite - HO's were more consistent with the expected function of that class in combat.

"I think my brain just shoved its head up its own ass in retaliation.
"  HaemishM.
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 23612


Reply #12 on: November 07, 2004, 08:12:27 PM

Quote from: jpark
In terms of overall group behavior - correct me if I am wrong guys - but the taunt is accompanied by an animation.  And I have endured aggro with mortal outcomes without seeing this animation from numerous tanks.  If this is accurate - it continues to be a great puzzle to me that arguably the simplest class continues (EQ, SB, CoH) to be the most poorly played.

Yes the Fighter Taunt does a "hand wave" animation, though it's easy to miss if you aren't paying attention since it's kind of subtle. One of the problems was that Taunt really didn't taunt that much (a la EQ) and Priest instant heals generated major aggro (and their debuffs generate a ton of hate as well). They supposedly changed that in one of the later patches (made Taunt generate more aggro and healing less) but I didn't really notice much difference playing my Cleric. In fact, at the low levels, since the armor difference wasn't all that much, I found it easier just to assume all the aggro myself in groups. I'd toss a reactive heal on myself and pull with a debuff and just let all the mobs beat on me until dead. That works especially well if you are a Druid since DS is so effective at lower levels.
Sable Blaze
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Reply #13 on: November 07, 2004, 08:47:45 PM

Taunt still had issues in EQlive. Most aggro was gained through spells (hybrids), procs, and (later and much broken) warrior spellbook abilities. This was constantly in flux, but usually worked so well as to trivialize encounters. That was the EQlive aggro paradigm when I quit.

EQOA worked somewhat differently. EQ2 appears more similar to this. The tank classes have a specific taunt ability (upgraded every 10 levels or so) that used power and locked aggro to you for a few seconds. You had to continually use it, especially if your more fragile party members were going nuts on debuffs or special attacks. Guess what? Most didn't, so it was a continuing complaint among the priests, melee, whathaveyou.

New paradigm (for most), so there'll be problems with the denser community members. And some never will pick it up since it uses power and they'd rather save it for attacks--despite the fact tank damage was relatively minor and melee and the magelings did huge damage.

Sounds a bit like CoH, eh?
Moroni
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Reply #14 on: November 13, 2004, 04:23:32 PM

Quote from: Aenovae
When I first started using the wheel, this post answered some of my questions.  It's an excellent description of how to use the wheel in groups.


Thank you for that link. That thing confused me to no end in the beta.
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