Punk Rock

[Roentgen]

First, it's not dead.   

Second, is anyone else fuckin' sick of the bullshit that passes for punk these days?  Whatever happened to punk trying to offend people?  Punk is supposed to be fucking obnoxious and sound shitty.  For example, my one of my favorite bands of all time:  The Misfits.  Except for Danzig's singing and writing, what a group of shitty musicians, but I fucking love it!  What about the Sex Pistols songs like Bodies?  About a "fucking bloody mess" of an abortion.

We went from Black Flag, Misfits, Sex Pistols, Dead Kennedys to fucking Sum 41?

[Nebu]

I don't have to say anything else.

[MahrinSkel]

It went from a socio-political statement centered on anarchy and culture-jamming to a "sound" and "image" that could be packaged, polished, and sold in a box.  Of course it became a sad joke on itself.  For crying out loud, it's closing on 40 years old, the original punks who aren't dead are ready to make commercial endorsements for AARP and Depends.

--Dave

[Big Gulp]

For crying out loud, it's closing on 40 years old, the original punks who aren't dead are ready to make commercial endorsements for AARP and Depends.

When I started hearing Iggy Pop songs in commercials is when I knew that the apocalypse wasn't far off.

[Cadaverine]

It went from being a bunch of kids learning to play on stage, and making DIY records, to slick production facilities, and sound engineers and the like.  Then MTV got their mitts on it, and we got Green Day.  There's still some good stuff out there, though.

[IainC]

Stiff Little Fingers, Blink 182. Both are apparently punk bands....

[Mr_PeaCH]

Roentgen - what's your age?  Have you heard of a recent film called American Hardcore?  I thought it was an excellent look back at the glorious early 80s hardcore punk scene.  Worth a look if you're at all interested.  I'll paraphrase one seminal quote from it...

"Rock and roll?  Stadium shows and lights and groupies and money, right?  People would ask me why I was fucking around with this punk rock shit, like how could I ever reach the top of the mountain that way.  I was like, no man, you don't understand... the people I'm with, we're trying to level the mountain."

Oh, and Bad Brains ftw.

[Musashi]

First, it's not dead.   

Second, is anyone else fuckin' sick of the bullshit that passes for punk these days?  Whatever happened to punk trying to offend people?  Punk is supposed to be fucking obnoxious and sound shitty.  For example, my one of my favorite bands of all time:  The Misfits.  Except for Danzig's singing and writing, what a group of shitty musicians, but I fucking love it!  What about the Sex Pistols songs like Bodies?  About a "fucking bloody mess" of an abortion.

We went from Black Flag, Misfits, Sex Pistols, Dead Kennedys to fucking Sum 41?

So, it's not dead then?

Dude...

It's dead.  Way dead.  REALLY fucking dead.

Also, good riddance.

Punk was about sucking on purpose.  It was fun to piss off your parents.  Now we have kids, and we don't want to be pissed off.  Hence, no punk.  Also, kids who want to listen to music in order to piss off their parents listen Lil Wayne. 

[stray]

The idea that it was necessarily about "anarchy" or culture jamming or sucking or any one thing is true the death of punk... And that happened long, long ago. Avril Lavigne or Blink 182 didn't kill anything. They're just dancing on a rotting corpse.

The first punk bands spanned the gamut of "statements" and sounds. The thing they had in common was the term Cadaverine said: "DIY". Other than that, early bands could range from the raucous and hedonistic (the Stooges, the Dead Boys, the Germs, Richard Hell); to artsy, poetic, and romantic (Velvets, Television, Patti Smith, Modern Lovers, X, Replacements, Siouxsie, Talking Heads, Buzzcocks); to juvenile, nostalgic, and fun (the Dolls, the Ramones, the Avengers, Richard Hell, the Cramps, the Misfits); to political (MC5, Clash, Pistols, Dead Kennedys).

There were so many different approaches on all fronts, and it died the minute bands started just doing Johnny Rotten impressions and intentionally sucking at their instruments (when, in the original case, some early punk or "protobunk" bands had virtuosos in them... guys like John Cale. While Tom Verlaine, Richard Lloyd, and Greg Sage are "guitar gods" just as much as anyone). When it became about posing and style, mohawks and safety pins, then that was the death of punk. The politics of the early bands could be anything from non-existent to rabidly left-wing to anarchic. And suprisingly, some of these musicians were even conventionally conservative (Johnny Ramone, for instance was a staunch Republican his whole life. And he loved Reagan).

[Abagadro]

Kids are too busy playing tiny plastic instruments to start bands in garages. Punk didn't "sound bad on purpose," it was just raw and unproduced.

[Musashi]

Dude.  The only punk band in the history of history was the Sex Pistols.  Their message?  Pretty much kill yourself.  They were an awesome spectacle to watch, and everyone was like "whoa, wtf."  But then one of them actually did kill himself, and everyone was like, "lame."  That's the second punk died.  It proved that while it was new and crazy at the time, it was also very wrong.  Being dead isn't really awesome.  The reason that punk died?  Because nobody can really top that.  Nobody can ever go as far as the Sex Pistols, because in order to go farther than them, you'd actually have to kill yourself, then come back to life and say, "God said I was right about Anarchy."  Then do it again. 

Everything else is just derivative shit.  Except The Clash, who while mildly derivative, weren't shit.

[Musashi]

Kids are too busy playing tiny plastic instruments to start bands in garages. Punk didn't "sound bad on purpose," it was just raw and unproduced.

...raw and unproduced on purpose.

[Abagadro]

I guess your definition of "bad" and my defintion are different.

[Selby]

This discussion is always fun.  Everyone likes to label everything and proclaim how one scene is more badass or more "dead" than another.  A good song is a good song, whether it requires 20 years of training to be able to play or 20 seconds to pick up the 2 chord changes.  If anything died, it was because the songs and music sucked, regardless of genre.  And it didn't "suck" by being underproduced or devoid of complexity, there is a major difference between a good song with shitty production and lousy musicianship and a bad song with slick production and the backing of a gozillion dollar empire.  Just like a shitty song with shitty production and no talent behind it is still a shitty song, even if you throw money at it there is no guarantee of making it not suck.

[Musashi]

Nah, I'm talking about punk as an ideology.  I really could care less about the music.  I like some of it.  The Clash in particular.  But most of it, i think tries to follow the Sex Pistol's ideology of anarchy or death, and fails to follow through on the death part.

[stray]

Kids are too busy playing tiny plastic instruments to start bands in garages. Punk didn't "sound bad on purpose," it was just raw and unproduced.

...raw and unproduced on purpose.

It wasn't on purpose. They were poor. Most of them simply couldn't afford studio time. Some could, or eventually could, and they didn't shy away from taking advantage of making quality recordings. Sounding like shit wasn't an actual goal in itself. It was circumstantial.

As for the Pistols, they were on the EMI label from the getgo (they even tell you so), and out of most of these bands, came late to the scene, and had an image that was largely manufactured. Malcolm McLaren was a fashion junky who hung around NYC when earlier punk bands were playing. He went back to the UK, opened a "punk" clothing shop, adopted some kids, and made them all look and act like Richard Hell.

A real DIY release was Television's Little Johnny Jewel. These dudes had no support, and were flat broke. They didn't even have fucking amps! They were plugged straight into some shitty PA (it's why the guitars sound so goofy in that link). They were the ones who first opened CBGB's, and only convinced the owner to have bands by literally building the stage for him. The minute they got some capital though, they could churn out highly technical guitar tracks that sounded more upbeat and whimsical than a Petula Clark song.

[Abagadro]

Nah, I'm talking about punk as an ideology.  I really could care less about the music.  I like some of it.  The Clash in particular.  But most of it, i think tries to follow the Sex Pistol's ideology of anarchy or death, and fails to follow through on the death part.

I would suggest, based upon this comment, that you don't know very much about the genre.

[Musashi]

It wasn't on purpose. They were poor.

Dude, Leadbelly was poor.  He still managed to use coat hangers and duct tape to make recordings that although they sound like ass, are musically good.  Punk was never about musicianship.  I know there are exceptions to the rule.

Nah, I'm talking about punk as an ideology.  I really could care less about the music.  I like some of it.  The Clash in particular.  But most of it, i think tries to follow the Sex Pistol's ideology of anarchy or death, and fails to follow through on the death part.

I would suggest, based upon this comment, that you don't know very much about the genre.

Oh, you're totally right.  And I don't really care.  I know why it's dead though.  That's all I'm saying. 

But still, a shitton of post 70's punk is Sex Pistols derivative.  Arguably all of it.  It may be a crime against humanity that this is the case, but it is.

[stray]

But still, a shitton of post 70's punk is Sex Pistols derivative.  Arguably all of it.  It may be a crime against humanity that this is the case, but it is.

That I agree with.

[Abagadro]

Oh, you're totally right.  And I don't really care. 

Always good to categorically opine about stuff you don't know anything about.

[Musashi]

Oh, come on guy.  I clearly know more than nothing.

[Righ]

Nah, I'm talking about punk as an ideology.  I really could care less about the music.  I like some of it.  The Clash in particular.  But most of it, i think tries to follow the Sex Pistol's ideology of anarchy or death, and fails to follow through on the death part.

There's a difference between 'punk ethic' and 'punk media label'. Fall Out Boy, and Good Charlotte fit the latter - its an imitation of a sound, mass produced by the major labels. It's the antithesis of the ethic. Punk grew out of artists who were unable to get their voices heard. They made their own tapes and records, distributed them by hand, sold their music in bars and markets. Almost anybody who doesn't fit the current narrow-focus industry has to do a similar thing today. The irony is that anybody who sounds like the most well known 'punk rock' bands - those who were picked up by the major labels - doesn't have to. The punk ethic is still alive today among many avant-garde artists, but if you also want it to sound like the popular 'punk rock' artists of the mid to late 70s, you're missing the point.

[K9]

This happens to most genres of music I think, what is true here for Punk is equally true for Hip-Hop for example, and probably true for other genres with which I am less familiar. There may be a few good artists amongst the homogenized mass-market stuff, but most of the quality stuff is well in the past.

[Engels]

Anyone who considers The Clash part of the punk ethic doens't really know much about the Clash's members, who by and large were middle class posers. Strummer went to private boarding school and poncy art colleges. Mick Jones too went to a rather august civil servant school called The Strand.

Lets face it, Punk had even less moral authority than the 60s hippy movement. Anyone nostalgic for reasons of cultural enrichment or long-lost altruism is barking up the wrong tree.

[Musashi]

Nah, I'm talking about punk as an ideology.  I really could care less about the music.  I like some of it.  The Clash in particular.  But most of it, i think tries to follow the Sex Pistol's ideology of anarchy or death, and fails to follow through on the death part.

There's a difference between 'punk ethic' and 'punk media label'. Fall Out Boy, and Good Charlotte fit the latter - its an imitation of a sound, mass produced by the major labels. It's the antithesis of the ethic. Punk grew out of artists who were unable to get their voices heard. They made their own tapes and records, distributed them by hand, sold their music in bars and markets. Almost anybody who doesn't fit the current narrow-focus industry has to do a similar thing today. The irony is that anybody who sounds like the most well known 'punk rock' bands - those who were picked up by the major labels - doesn't have to. The punk ethic is still alive today among many avant-garde artists, but if you also want it to sound like the popular 'punk rock' artists of the mid to late 70s, you're missing the point.

I agree with that, but I don't know if you can leave out the purposeful self-destructiveness that was part of the ethic.  When fans started judging music based on a perceived level of 'hardcore,' it just spelled disaster.  And how do you know how hardcore a band is?  Well how far underground did you find them?  And while the original punk bands couldn't get paid, and were somewhat altruistic in getting their misguided message out.  It wasn't the case for more than a few years, which made everyone after that hypocrites to fans for playing music they liked because it became popular.  And you can't be punk and popular.  And you can't be in an unpopular band and eat actual food.  So you're in a band on the road and you're poor intentionally.  All signs point to trailer-park meth bender.  It's like the circle of death.

I know there are still bands who play punk music.  There are still bands that do barbershop quartet.  It's dead man.  Lil Wayne.  Embrace your new overlord.

Anyone who considers The Clash part of the punk ethic doens't really know much about the Clash's members, who by and large were middle class posers. Strummer went to private boarding school and poncy art colleges. Mick Jones too went to a rather august civil servant school called The Strand.

Lets face it, Punk had even less moral authority than the 60s hippy movement. Anyone nostalgic for reasons of cultural enrichment or long-lost altruism is barking up the wrong tree.

I said I liked The Clash.  I didn't say they were Part of the Ethic. 

Also, I'm pretty much saying that any long-lost altruism wasn't culturally enriching for more than a few minutes and that's why it's dead.

[Abagadro]

I agree with that, but I don't know if you can leave out the purposeful self-destructiveness that was part of the ethic.  When fans started judging music based on a perceived level of 'hardcore,' it just spelled disaster.  And how do you know how hardcore a band is?  Well how far underground did you find them?  And while the original punk bands couldn't get paid, and were somewhat altruistic in getting their misguided message out.  It wasn't the case for more than a few years, which made everyone after that hypocrites to fans for playing music they liked because it became popular.  And you can't be punk and popular.  And you can't be in an unpopular band and eat actual food.  So you're in a band on the road and you're poor intentionally.  All signs point to trailer-park meth bender.  It's like the circle of death.

This is pretentious and retarded.  Were you around during this time period?  Just curious.

[Arnold]

Sucks.

[Righ]

What makes folks think that punk rockers cannot be middle class art school graduates? The press. The punk ethic has nothing to do with being a 'working class hero'. The 'self destuctiveness' and indeed the whole 'authenticity' stuff was a fabrication of the media, and the record companies who fed them. Punk is about doing your thing, no matter what others think. Which is why I love it when progressive rock fans bemoan punk rock as being a reaction against the pomposity of progressive rock, and how they were untalented musicians kicking down the establishment of classical influenced rock. That's what it became when EMI bought in and wanted a sales pitch. Prior to the commercialization of 'punk rock', punk was Peter Hammill, Gong, Magma. Brilliant musicians who created dissonant music for artistic purposes, not because they were shit.

[stray]

I think Joe kicks ass. Damn soulful voice, killer grooves. And the Clash are one of the British "punk" bands from the period that didn't rest on one sound. They did their own thing, kept getting more proficient over time, and were closer to the original spirit of it than most. They kick off with Clash City Rockers, covered reggae tunes like Police and Thieves, move on to catchy pop songs like Train in Vain, unclassifiable tunes like Rock the Casbah, and then solo-wise, Joe, much like David Byrne, moved into a more "World" music direction, touching base everywhere (Johnny Appleseed is a damn good song, for one). I don't care if he grew up privileged. His songs were good. Besides, as I've said, I don't see how Punk was about having any moral authority to begin with. Moral authority with music maybe, but otherwise, the politics were across the board.

[HaemishM]

Punk got bought, pure and simple. The last great punk album was Dookie and it got mass-spun to shit. Punk was already walking with a limp before that. Once the big record companies got involved and actually wanted their money back, punk's days were numbered.

[stray]

Actually, it got bought and sold twice. 

It's an interesting story (to me anyways). There's the first wave, the stuff we're talking about above -- like the Ramones and the Stooges, where record companies were pretty enthusiastic about cashing in at first -- but after all the excess and self destruction (like Sid), everything imploded. Then....supposedly, what few punk bands that were still around and had a less abrasive sound, were marketed as "New Wave" (I forget the studio exec that first coined the term, but it was all very intentional). Some went full on pop, like Blondie. Other bands were dropped.

After this, you get the entire 80's underground. "Alternative/indie/college rock", whatever you want to call it -- it was still basically the same old punks -- just musicians doing their thing the way they wanted to. Many of them were fantastic. Dino Jr., Ian MacKeye, Big Black, etc., etc.. No major label wanted them though, and none of these bands wanted a major label after seeing what happened before anyways.

Fast forward towards the end of the 80's, and some of these bands start warming up again. Particularly Husker Du and the Pixies. Then Sonic Youth signed with David Geffen (there was also bands like Jane's Addiction and RHCP, who were happy being on major labels, but didn't quite breakthrough until later). These were the few bands that were popular enough for wide distribution, needed a major outlet, but not quite so popular as to compete with, say, Bon Jovi. Labels wanted them merely to fill in the spaces.

Then.... Sonic Youth convinced a little band named Nirvana to sign with Geffen, and that pretty much changed everything for every other underground band. Bands like X who were around way back in the Ramones days started getting cash handed to them to make a new album. Nobodies were getting signed just because they fit the bill somewhat. Hell, even the Butthole Surfers actually started selling more than, say, 2 copies of their albums. It was actually kind of cool at first (to me) - just to see these people become a little more accessible, with music videos and shit.

Then Cobain died like another stupid cliche, and dragged everyone along with him. Some good bands sustained through it, but for the most part, punk was dead again, and replaced with an image of it.

[Abagadro]

You missed the rise and decline of the SST stable in there, but a good summary.

[Ralence]

<clip>
Fast forward towards the end of the 80's, and some of these bands start warming up again. Particularly Husker Du and the Pixies. <clip>

   Whenever someone mentions Husker Du, it reminds me of Mould's project after that "Sugar", which is *still* two of my all time favorite albums.  And I'm definitely not an 80's alternative fan.  That shit just rocked.

  Also, there's still some "social commentary" punk bands floating around, they're few and far between, "Naked Aggression", "Strike Anywhere", "Strung Out", "Rise Against".  I always enjoyed the political and social messages more than the music itself.  Someone saying the things I wanted to say when I was a teenager, and something to believe in I suppose.

  It's kind of ironic that when you're unempowered you have all sorts of grand ideas of life, and change, and the things you think should be different.  And then once you grow up and have the ability to actually make those changes, they're really not quite as important as you thought they were.  Who the fuck cares if people eat meat?  I've got rent to pay, and if selling dead cows pays the bills, praise be to cow eating!

Just my .02

[Musashi]

I agree with that, but I don't know if you can leave out the purposeful self-destructiveness that was part of the ethic.  When fans started judging music based on a perceived level of 'hardcore,' it just spelled disaster.  And how do you know how hardcore a band is?  Well how far underground did you find them?  And while the original punk bands couldn't get paid, and were somewhat altruistic in getting their misguided message out.  It wasn't the case for more than a few years, which made everyone after that hypocrites to fans for playing music they liked because it became popular.  And you can't be punk and popular.  And you can't be in an unpopular band and eat actual food.  So you're in a band on the road and you're poor intentionally.  All signs point to trailer-park meth bender.  It's like the circle of death.

This is pretentious and retarded.  Were you around during this time period?  Just curious.

I'm trying to say that it was pretentious and retarded.  And I'm 34.  You're whole thing here is just an example of what I'm talking about.  I don't know enough about the intricacies of the genre for you, and I'm therefore not qualified to speak about its philosophy.  I'm in essence, not hardcore enough.  I'm not punk rock because instead of being fucked up on heroin in a New York hotel with Sid Vicious in 1979, I was in Mrs. Myers kindergarten class.  And you're right.  I'm not hardcore.  But being that hardcore in the first place just demonstrates what a twat whistle you are for spending your time devoted to an ideal that was monumentally stupid.  So I win by default.

And I agree with Righ, but I still don't think you can separate the whole Sid and Nancy image from punk rock's ethic.  Punk is definitely what you say it is.  But it is also this.  For better or worse, whether it was MTV, or suits, or whatever, that's what most people think of when someone says punk.  I think of Sid Vicious in a gutter.  I think of the bullshit philosophy that led him there.  I think of every teenage douche bag who saw that movie and wanted to be him and started scribbling little A for anarchy symbols on his Trapper Keeper. 

Sid was about doing it his way too, remember?  As I said, I know that's sad.  But that's the way it is.

If I was in a modern punk band, I imagine I'd be pretty tired of that whole moniker too.  I might just play upstrokes and call myself a ska band.  But everyone would still call me punk and ask me where my mohawk and leather jacket are, commending me on allowing my trumpet-playing friend a spot in the band.

[stray]

Yeah, that sucks... It's true that there's an image associated with punk -- but in actuality, it's counter-productive to the whole thing. None of that shit was supposed to matter. Patti Smith or Iggy looked like typical long haired rockers. The New York Dolls and Wayne/Jayne County were dressed in drag. The Bad Brains were all black Rastas. The Ramones and Fred Sonic Smith had the whole chili bowl thing going on. Television looked like short haired schoolboys. Henry Rollins had long hair during his whole time in Black Flag (speaking of which, here's a hilarious interview of Henry from back then. "We don't play for you. We play for us."). [edit] Eh, the context of that interview was that BF started slowing down in their later albums, getting real sludgy. People started bitching that it was metal, and not "punk" enough. Henry was telling them all to fuck off.