The end of suicide ganking

[ajax34i]

Well, it was more like (Hauler's Loot Value) * (% chance that loot drops) / (number of vultures) > (cost of ship and fittings) - (insurance payout), but the security loss is much higher now, which means holding your fire for the truly juicy targets.

[Slayerik]

What Ajax said. The sec hit depends on system (makes sense) and sec status of target and of the ganker...um..sure i guess.

Going to mean a lot more ratting it seems.

Fuck that, its Suicide Gank 2: The Wrath of Slay

http://f13.7mph.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=2614

[Amarr HM]

Im so setup to do some moar ganking right now I'll be -5.0 before the nerf so two fingers to CCP.

[bhodi]

Here's the breakdown:
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=840506&page=9#269

We are increasing the security penalties throughout high-security space. It will be a gradual change, from 1.0 down to 0.1, where the security level of the system will dictate how much penalty you receive for illegal actions against a fellow capsuleer. This means that 1.0 will now be the safest of places, where aggressions and kills will be severely penalized and can quickly outlaw the aggressor from higher security levels. Conversely, 0.1, 0.2, and 0.3 will see a decrease in penalty, but not a big step down.
To me this reads as if .4 systems were chosen as the balancing point, retaining the standard .5% loss for aggression and 2.0% loss for destruction. However, this hasn't been done. Instead it's been balanced around .3 systems.

Sec status is already a royal PITA to maintain. So far on Sisi, sec loss on high sec systems and sec loss versus high security targets have already been penalized. Let's not start increasing the base sec status loss in .4s as well. As it stands on sisi you can lose as much as thirty two percent more sec lost than currently on tranq (since .4s can be .44 true sec)

Compared to before:
1.0 = 3x sec loss
.9 = 2.7x sec loss
.8 = 2.4x sec loss
.7 = 2.1x sec loss
.6 = 1.8x sec loss
.5 = 1.5x sec loss
.4 = 1.2x sec loss
.3 = .9x sec loss
.2 = .6x sec loss
.1 = .3x sec loss

Previous LOSS formulas were:
Aggress: (.005)*(Current Sec + 10) = actual sec loss
Destroy: (.02)*(Current Sec + 10)= actual sec loss

New LOSS Formulas are:
Aggress: (.005*(1-(aggressor's sec- victim's sec)/100)*(truesec *3)*(current sec + 10)= actual sec loss
Destroy: (.02*(1-(aggressor's sec- victim's sec)/100)*(truesec *3)*(current sec + 10)= actual sec loss

Test Numbers:
Test 1:
.06 aggresses a -1.6 in a .3384 system
Combat log reports a .0998% loss.
Security sheet reports a .4991% loss
Resulting sec status is .01

Test 2:
.01 aggresses a -1.6 in a .4319 system
Combat log reports a -.1274% loss
Security sheet reports a .6372% loss
Resulting sec status is -.05

Test 3:
-.05 aggresses a -1.6 in a .1889 system
Combat log reports a -.0558% loss
Security sheet reports a .279% loss
Resulting sec status is -.08

Test 4:
-.08 aggresses a -1.6 in a .1498 system
Combat log reports a -.0443% loss
Security sheet reports a -.2213% loss
Resulting sec status is -.10

Test 5:
-.10 destroys a -1.6 in a .1498 system
Combat log reports a -.1771% loss
Security sheet reports a -.8855% loss
Resulting sec status is -.19


The increased concord speed is going to make suicide ganking freighters a lot more expensive, and to be honest, the price point on freighters was kind of low - about 1b for a break even point. For the hauler, that's just the price of the hull itself.

[Sparky]

Honestly this just means clueless people will be all "woot I'm safe at last from evil gankers" and go back to AFK untanked hauling.

[Faust]

Just as a note, every single one of these changes was recommended by the Dutch CSM girl in Iceland.

Bet she's hot.

[lac]

What, you haven't seen Ankhesentapemkah - the movie?

[Pezzle]

CVA talked about Concord changes months ago.  We concluded that removing insurance payout was probably the way to go.  It would not stop the suicides, but it would up the threshold substantially.  One of the other ideas was a scaling sec loss boost.  Actually we had many ideas, some are similar to the proposed changes.  We did not expect them to make ALL of them (and then some)

[Amarr HM]

The main problem with the insurance payout it effects the average player who gets concorded accidentally more than the gankers, the rest of the changes are fine though.

[Pezzle]

Outside the bugs of course it encourages players to be more careful.

[Ninja Sportz]

Wait...question...looking at bhodii's calculations...doesnt that mean if you agress/destroy someone with a lower sec status than you then your sec status could technically go up??  That is assuming you do it to someone with atleast 1.0 lower sec status so that then the 1-(aggressor's sec- victim's sec) would then become a positive number...so you could gain sec status by ganking people??

[Predator Irl]

Nerfing the insurance is just plain dump. Whats a 20 mill loss to a suicide ganker making a few hundred mill, or even a few bill?

Personally, I don't think they should try to stop it. Even though I wouldn't like it happening to me, I don't believe empire should be 100% safe. If all these whining fuckers just trained up indy 5, or stopped AP they wouldn't get ganked to begin with.   

[Reg]

It was fine when it was a rare thing but everyone knows about it now. Making it a little harder to cut it back some isn't going to kill anyone. The serious gankers will carry on somehow.

[Thrawn]

The serious gankers will carry on somehow.

The serious gankers will possibly come out better because all the changes will drive off a lot of the people that weren't that good at it in the first place.  Add the fact that this will probably make some haulers lazy again thinking "Yay, they nerfed it, I can just AFK all the way to Jita now."

[ajax34i]

Wait...question...looking at bhodii's calculations...doesnt that mean if you agress/destroy someone with a lower sec status than you then your sec status could technically go up??  That is assuming you do it to someone with atleast 1.0 lower sec status so that then the 1-(aggressor's sec- victim's sec) would then become a positive number...so you could gain sec status by ganking people??

No, it's:   1 - (sec. difference)/100, which is a percentage, and the number varies between 0.8 and 1.2 and will never reach 0 or negative values.  If the aggressor is at +10.0 (max standing) and the victim is the baddest pirate at -10.0, then 1 - 20/100 = 0.8, see?

[Simond]

The main problem with the insurance payout it effects the average player who gets concorded accidentally more than the gankers, the rest of the changes are fine though.

You say 'problem', I say 'opportunity to post mocking threads pointing out that they asked for these changes a week after the patch" 

[Amarr HM]

Yeh exactly Simond I posted this on the forums with an alt during the CSM debacle,

Assembly Hall
Make sucide ganking more difficult

This thread is so ridiculous, cause you seem to forget a ganker loses his privileges in empire which means doing some mindnumbing ratting. I'll agree to nerfing up suicide ganking if ratting is made more interesting cause its bloody boring or even create more interesting ways to up your sec status.
Just to show you how ridiculous this thread is I vote YES cause Im still gonna gank you no matter how high you make it for me. Actually you will be doing me a favour I won't have to waste my time on crappy 200mil kills Ill go straight for the biggies with a bil or more, so more profit less ratting thanks. Make suicide ganking more difficult and you will give people a real false sense of security and bring out even more afk haulers while at the same time making me more focused on getting that uber kill I really love your work do it I friggin dare ya! 

[Phred]

The main problem with the insurance payout it effects the average player who gets concorded accidentally more than the gankers, the rest of the changes are fine though.

I think this is a red herring. when I was a newbie, I still managed to accumulate enough money to buy new ships faster than they were destroyed and not all were insured. Do you really think there are this huge number of newbies out there that are going to shoot concord 3 or 4 times in a day or something.

[Nerf]

The problem is an unassisted newbie only needs to lose one cruiser he can't replace and he'll quit the game.

I think they should've added a buffer in, one dokken insurance payout per week, or payouts for anything cruiser size or smaller, the money at that level doesn't matter for a suicide ganker, but could easily cause a new player to say fuck it and quit.

[Amarr HM]

The main problem with the insurance payout it effects the average player who gets concorded accidentally more than the gankers, the rest of the changes are fine though.

I think this is a red herring. when I was a newbie, I still managed to accumulate enough money to buy new ships faster than they were destroyed and not all were insured. Do you really think there are this huge number of newbies out there that are going to shoot concord 3 or 4 times in a day or something.

There are multiple ways you can get concorded you don't have to be newbie I have seen experienced players gettting Concorded for attacking a wreck during a mission, targeting the wrong person during a war cause he showed as red on the overview etc.

But I have noticed CCP have made the notification of a dangerous act permanent in that you can't switch it off anymore, so this should act as a buffer betweeen you and doing anything stupid but not long ago it would be very easy to get concorded by accident it's happened everybody I know including myself a few times.

[kildorn]

Still happens, I can easily see autotarget freaking newbies out (I have random people in highsec lock me just for laughs), and Dodiwannabejita was swarming with concord yesterday from someone or another getting mauled.

For the most part, the warnings are really really obvious though.

[Slayerik]

Me and Amarr keeping up the 'good fight'

http://f13.7mph.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=2619

[Phildo]

Wow, EVERYTHING dropped!

[Thrawn]

Wow, EVERYTHING dropped!

Was probably all in a GSC, so if that drops intact everything in it is intact. 

[Slayerik]

Wow, EVERYTHING dropped!

Was probably all in a GSC, so if that drops intact everything in it is intact. 

This.

Thats why when you see me crying about everything popping, it is due to the GSC poppin.



Also, this guy did everything fit wise he could to stop us.

3 Stabs, would have shut either of me and Amarr down if we were solo. The extenders mighta saved him if it were one of us. His biggest fuckup - HAULING a HALF BILLION in loot in a fuckin T1 hauler. At least make a couple trips.

[eldaec]

3 Stabs, would have shut either of me and Amarr down if we were solo. The extenders mighta saved him if it were one of us. His biggest fuckup - HAULING a HALF BILLION in loot in a fuckin T1 hauler. At least make a couple trips.

Hypothetically, if he had flown two Iterons past your camp, each with 250M in loot, wouldn't he be twice as dead right now?

[Slayerik]

He would take a diff route after losing the first. At least, I would.

[Jayce]

Not to mention the profit margins are pretty slim on 2 people ganking a 250million hauler.  They especially will be after the nerf.

250/2 = 125, subtract some for your fits that get blown up and you're looking at 100 mil if EVERYTHING drops.  For the time you spend waiting for him to come along you could probably have ratted up 100mil.  After the nerf, you're looking at more like 60-70 mil.

Then of course the 2 billion untanked afk hauler comes along immediately after you blow this guy up for his 100 mil...

[sanctuary]

He would take a diff route after losing the first. At least, I would.

On this note, how easy is it to generate an alternative route? I realise that you can manually set way points, but that would seem to be quite time consuming (depends on length of journey too I spose). Also there's the option to autopilot based on sec status, but the afk haulers would mostly be in high sec. Is there a map option to generate an alternative route assuming the sec status/pod kills etc options aren't changed?

[Slayerik]

It is not always easy to get around a chokepoint, true. But depending on the cargo...there are certain ways I would never go.

[Simond]

Not to mention the profit margins are pretty slim on 2 people ganking a 250million hauler.  They especially will be after the nerf.

250/2 = 125, subtract some for your fits that get blown up and you're looking at 100 mil if EVERYTHING drops.  For the time you spend waiting for him to come along you could probably have ratted up 100mil.  After the nerf, you're looking at more like 60-70 mil.

Then of course the 2 billion untanked afk hauler comes along immediately after you blow this guy up for his 100 mil...

Or just fly in a small gang of gank-fit Vexors/Omens/Thorax/Ruptures and only lose 10 million per pilot?

[Slayerik]

Not to mention the profit margins are pretty slim on 2 people ganking a 250million hauler.  They especially will be after the nerf.

250/2 = 125, subtract some for your fits that get blown up and you're looking at 100 mil if EVERYTHING drops.  For the time you spend waiting for him to come along you could probably have ratted up 100mil.  After the nerf, you're looking at more like 60-70 mil.

Then of course the 2 billion untanked afk hauler comes along immediately after you blow this guy up for his 100 mil...

Or just fly in a small gang of gank-fit Vexors/Omens/Thorax/Ruptures and only lose 10 million per pilot?

the real problem is the sec these days.

[Simond]

Meh, how long does it take to roll up a suicide ganker alt for a T1-fit cruiser? A month?

[Slayerik]

Meh, how long does it take to roll up a suicide ganker alt for a T1-fit cruiser? A month?

The reason I make ganking look easy is the sheer skills on my guys, overloading, T2 fit... not to mention implants. Its feasible 3 one-month old players could do similar dps to me ;)

Also, take a month to roll up a guy that cant rat his sec back up....thats a month training for a couple ganks tops with the new training.

[Amarr HM]

I think around 70-80 days training from scratch for all the prereqs I'll post up a skillplan if you're interested I have one premade.