f13.net forums - Ahh, the good ole days (when games beat the shit out of you)

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August 02, 2025, 07:16:58 AM

we're back, baby

Was surfing around on another forum, and spotted a nice thread. They were discussing what was the hardest game they had ever played. Some of them brought up various rpgs, old school platformers, and those crazy horisontal scrolling shooting games.

This one one of the best comments. Now THIS game sounds like a bitch (why cant we have more of this level of difficulty now a days :P)

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None of the RPGs y'all are mentioning are really hard. Yeah, sure NES RPGs were tougher than ones today, but they weren't tough.

You want to know what was tough? Wizardry was tough. The first three ones were pretty bad. The boss of Wizardry 1, for instance, could do about a hundred damage to your entire party with a single spell, and it's unlikely your mage, cleric or bishop ever got above 60 hp or so, so he'd generally kill half your party in the first round of combat, and the other half next round. Of course, even some of the later random opponents could do that. And then there were the ninjas that could kill your party members automatically on a critical hit. And resurrection only worked sometimes, and often cost you stats. And you only had 8 inventory slots per person, most of which had to be spent on equipment; and even if you had more room, the potions were rare treasures that restored maybe 1-8 HP, and there was no way to restore spells without returning to town. Plus there were the dark zones and the antimagic zones and the spinners and the non-euclidian maps that defied mapping and left you with no way home... And even if you survived all that, you could still die of old age.

But those first three wizardries were the easy wizardries. It was tough, but you could level up your party and eventually face most of the dangers down. Yeah, sure, a group of ninjas could always ambush you and kill half your party instantly, there was no levelling your way out of that; and random-encounter wizards could kill your entire party very easily if you weren't careful. But you could do something.

Wizardry 4 wasn't like that. In Wizardry 4, you get one character, the evil wizard Werdna. You can't level him up normally; instead, you gain 9 levels throughout the game at certain plot points. That's it. No powerlevelling. You don't have a party, either; instead, you can summon monsters to escort you through the dungeon. Some of them have neat abilities, but you can't give them direct orders, ever, so you just have to keep your fingers crossed and hope they do what you want them to. These monsters never level up (though as you advance through your 9 levels of power, you can summon bigger things); and when they die, they're dead. The only way to replace them is to get back to your summoning points, which are few and far apart. And Werdna is a mage, so he has virtually nil HP; if you ever run out of monsters, that's it. He can't even survive one attack.

Now, Werdna, being a mage, does have spells. His magical abilities, once you reach level 9, are awsome beyond comparison. He can cast each level of spells exactly nine times before he runs out and has to recharge at a summoning circle. If he runs out before you reach the circle, that's it; so you have to treat those nine kickass spells like your last skin of water in a desert that goes on for a thousand miles, and probably just has more desert on the other side. That's basically how it works.

Oh, and you're up against heroes. Let me tell you about heroes. They don't play fair. They'll take you on six-vs-one without a thought. They have ninjas, of course, who still kill instantly on a critical; they have mages who will cheerfully blast away your entire team in a single attack; they have fighters who get sixteen attacks per round and have enough HP to overflow the register. They have thieves who can hide in combat and steal items that you need to complete the game, in which case you'd better hope that you have a save handy. And when you finally manage to kill them, that scavy-boned cleric in the back row brings them back to life so you can do it again. And, remember, you don't level up through experience in this game, so you don't get anything for any of this.

Imagine taking the side of the monsters in a generic random encounter against a party of buffed-up heroes. That's Wizardry 4 for you in a nutshell. But even that is just the beginning. Assume the heroes don't kill you. Assume you manage to avoid running out of spells, your plot-essential items don't get stolen, your monsters stay alive, the enemy ninjas never get critical hits, etc, etc, etc. Fine, all that means is that you get to live long enough to face the puzzles. Wizardry 4 had the hardest riddles any game has ever had. Most of them don't make any sense anyway. Wizardry 4 has mazes that make the unmappable, non-euclidian mazes of Wizardry 1 look like beautifully straight corridors. Wizardry 4 has barrages of questions, any one of which can put the game in an unsolvable state if you get them wrong (without telling you that you've made a mistake, of course.) There's a puzzle that requires you reached the end of the first game to know the solution (without telling you that the solution was at the end of the first game, of course); and that puzzle is right near the end of Wizardry 4, so you could get stuck there after slaving through everything else. And you have to solve all these puzzles while the heroes are killing you.

Oh, and in addition to the heroes, you're being chased by the ghost of your old archnemesis Trebor. Trebor is dead, so you can't kill him again through normal means; he just keeps coming back to haunt you. Trebor always knows exactly where you are and chases you through magical means. Also, if Trebor reaches you then you die instantly. Trebor sucks. But by the time you learn about Trebor, you're sort of numb anyway.

Wizardry IV is fun, in its own way. Many people think it's the best game in the series. But it is hard. It's hard enough to make grown men cry. It's so hard that nobody has ever been willing to make a remake of it; not even in Japan, where the Wizardry games quite popular, and where they released a new and much easier Wizardry IV ("Throb Of The Demon's Heart" IIRC) instead.

You know the hardest boss you ever faced in any console RPG--the one that really gave you a tough time? The one that actually managed to kill you two or three times, and required a bit of levelling before you could finally bring him down? Well, in his spare time that boss plays Wizardry IV; and he can't get out of the first room.

As to the hardest games I have ever played?
Platformers would be Megaman (Nes ones), Ninja Gaiden (nes again)
RTS vote goes to Metal Fatigue (even on easy this game kicks my ass)
Cant really say I actually found any rpg's super hard (except maybe 7th Saga, with its bosses that scaled up with your level, meaning powerleveling early in the game was certain death)

So how about you guys? What games royally kicked your asses?

Hardest Platformer: Megaman 2, Ninja Gaiden (Xbox)
Easiest Platformer: Megaman 3 (listed solely because it's predecessor was insanely hard.)

Hardest RTS: Cannon Fodder. Anyone who has played this knows EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Insanely fun though.

Hardest RPG: Dark Cloud 2 (i'd like to see someone finish this one without a book - and by finish I mean 100% complete), Dragon Warrior 1 for Nintendo (due to hold old I was, it being the first RPG I'd played, and how insanely long it was)

Hardest Turn-Based Strategy: Disgaea (not so much hard as I'll never beat it due to lack of patience)

Hardest Sports Game: RBI Baseball for NES - believe you me, this game could get insanely hard.

Hardest Adventure Game: Journeyman Project for my Mac LCII, again, it was my age that made this hard.

Hardest Action Game: Flashback: The Quest for Identity for my Mac or Atari Jaguar....if you consider it an action game, it may be considered a platformer by some.

Hardest MMO: SWG on launch day.

Hardest FPS: Alien vs. Predator for Jaguar (due to the controller), and Far Cry or Call of Duty (on the hardest levels respectively).

Cannon Fodder gave me nightmares, I think I just gave up in the end, it was getting soul destroying.

The hardest current game I'm playing is VF4:Evo, well really playing Akira and trying to not look like a button bashing idiot.

I remember playing Wiz 4 on my Apple IIe for pity's sake. And yes, it was a fricking pita. By way of example, you start off in a 2X2 room with no doors and a summoning circle. You get to summon i think 3 groups of level 1 critters and you HAD to pick priests as 1 to have any shot of getting out of the room. Reason, once you had them, you wander around the mini room until you have a random encounter and during the battle hope to hell your priest would cast magical light to reveal the secret door that was the only way out of room 1. You would have no way to know this without trial and error. After that it gets hard.

Gad that game was frustrating. There's a fine line between "hard but fun" and "fist through monitor".

Xilren

The hardest game I've ever attempted was Alien vs Predator 1 as a marine. Aside from all the (software) bugs, the marines were just fodder for everything else; I never made it past the first level.

Come to think of it, I don't think I finished that game as the alien or the predator either. I finished all 3 on the 2nd iteration though. Fun.

I feel obliged to mock you all for finding Megaman 2 difficult. I mean, come on. I can beat that game on one life, on difficult.

Megaman 1, now that one was hard. But still, it's no Battletoads, or Ghosts and Goblins.

Battletoads was just psychotic. My brother and I used to play a shitton of nintendo, but we couldn't beat that game no matter how many times we rented it (I think 3 total times off and on). My brother was one of those people too that beat all of the posted Nintendo power race times for Mario Kart. I think I still have the gold controller we won laying around somewhere for that.

Battletoads just kicked our asses. I can't remember any game except the Wizardry on Nintendo ever giving us that much trouble (fucking dark rooms and near impossible puzzles and all reasons that one guy lists).

I have a friend who was oddly obsessive enough to get all of his characters in Wizardry up to max level. He would then go and just beat the game repeatedly for shits and giggles.

He was a very strange guy.

Battletoads, insane difficult. Anyone manage to get through I think level 3, where you have to drive the jet powered cart over all the islands, but theres a part without ramps and you have to time your jump exactly? We could never ever beat that and had to use Game Genie to get past that level. The other levels were super hard too. Battletoads vs Double Dragon was much easier (and good too).

Ninja Gaiden on xbox is so very very very insane hard. And i'm playing it on normal mode. I think i fought the one boss Alma about 55 times. No joke.

Megaman 2 was pretty hard. Mars Matrix is hard, Ikaruga too. Metropolis Street Racer for dremcast was one of the hardest games I ever played (and possibly my favorite consoler ever)

Quote from: Bloodrage

Then you're a pussy.

No offence.

:D

Ninja Gaiden Xbox is only hard when compared to other games in the past 10 years or so. Unless you started your gaming life on the PS1 you should not think that game is THAT hard. Compared to other games in recent years, yes. But the originals are all harder. Well, NG2 was not THAT bad. NG1 was a BITCH. I don't recall much of NG3.

Along with battletoads, one of the nes TMNT games was psychotic as well.

I can't stand when people list megaman2 or contra as hard games. I know multiple people who can do both of those games without ever dying on one playthrough. In contra I had a friend beat the thing 3 times straight on one life before he got bored and shut it off (and yes I was there watching and got quite bored as well). I am not that good at those types of games though. I sure can't do that, but I certainly beat both games without too much difficulty. MM2 on a rental.

Flashback was really hard at the end. I rented the thing and then kept it an extra week and could not quite beat it. Some of the sections on the alien world just beat me up. Getting there was a fun challenge, but not insanely hard. After that it ramped up and I could not do it.

AVP1 marines was tough, but nowhere near impossible or even among my top 20 hard games. I pirated the game to see if I wanted it and played marines up to level 4 I think. Since AVP2 was coming out in a month or so at that time I just uninstalled the game and waited for that. Bought that one. And I kind of think the alien was done better in the first one. Ah well. I hated the timed levels in the first one though.

Quote from: Bloodrage

I'd say that was pretty hard also, but...I have a twist.

Back in the day when I used to partake in my share of weed smokin' I can honestly say that AVP1 scared the living fuck out of me when I was stoned. Used to get ripped off my ass, turn off all the lights, and play that game as a Marine. I swear I jumped out of my seat at least a hundred times.

It scared me when I was sober.

Yeah, I'd turn off the lights and start playing as a marine. I don't think I've played any game that comes close to AvP1 for immersion and atmosphere. The second one is almost as good.

I hated the first game because of all the bugs in it. No pun intended. AvP1 is the buggiest game I've ever bought. I was wary of buying the second version, but they cleaned up their act nicely.

Quote from: Snowspinner

Hey, I play Wizardry I right now on occaision. There is a box set out that has 1-8. I love taking out Vorpal Bunnies and Wil O' Wisps in text!

Oh, on the topic of hard games. Was anyone here ever any good at Bionic Commando arcade version (not the nes version, very different games)?

That game kicked my ass all over the place. Even on an emulator I can't do jack in that game without hordes of virtual quarters.

Some of the Bard's Tale games gave me serious hassle way back when.

Granted, I was playing them on our Apple ][e, and I think I was probably in about 1st or 2nd grade...but damn, they were HARD back then.

I wonder if they're still hard now.

Heh, I think I have the Apple and the disks laying around at my parent's house somewhere.

Does it count as hard if the game sucks so badly that you just quit and never bother figuring it out?

If so then ET for the Atari wins my vote.

As best I can remember, my ET experience went as follows:

Move around, move around, "Fuck, I fell down a hole!" (although being that I was probably around 9 or 10 I doubt I said Fuck.) "How do I get out of this hole?" "Screw it I'll just start over and try again."

Move around, find some part of a phone, move around, "Fuck, I fell down that hole again." "I still can't get out." "Guess I'll try again."

Repeat about 3 more times and never play the game again. To this day I have no idea if you're ever supposed to get out of that goddamn hole.

You can levitate out of the hole, though it required some "skill" because if you let go of the levitate too soon, BLOOP down the hole again.

It's also widely regarded as one of the worst fucking travesties ever inflicted upon the video game populace. It was so bad because it was so rushed, or some such thing. I remembered playing that for a long time, but fuck it was brutally sucky.

Heh, fun. Of course, Nethack doesn't let you do pesky things like save, and levelling doesn't help much when it just scales up the monsters according to your level. Then there's fun friends for you to play with as well. And, any game with a Touch of Death has to be good. ;)

And then there's SLASH'EM...

Gah, ghost and goblins.

That game is masochistic.

The toughest I remember was Alternate Reality. Details are foggy, but it was fun as hell...until you died. The save game feature was wonky, so dying pretty much meant starting over. I think I pirated it (this was in the mid 80s, when I was a fuckstick teenager), so perhaps there was a way out of these messes in the documentation =)

Does anyone remember this game? I have heard rumors of a sequel or remake, but nothing concrete.

I've never played AvP1, but System Shock 2 is probably the scariest game I've ever played. Can be pretty hard on the higher difficulty levels, too, considering the very small amounts of ammunition available.

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It's also widely regarded as one of the worst fucking travesties ever inflicted upon the video game populace. It was so bad because it was so rushed, or some such thing. I remembered playing that for a long time, but fuck it was brutally sucky.

I read an interview with the guy that made the game awhile back. If my memory serves me correctly he was given less than a week to make the game and bug test it from nothing to finished product (I actually seem to recall it being on a WEEKEND but that seems to crazy to even type, and I am too lazy to google). He seemed proud of himself that he made SOMETHING in the time constraint but admits that it sucked.

Quote from: Alluvian

Would that have even been possible with the technology from the 80's? We are talking about a game that was made in the 80's right? Nothing to finished product...? You need to find that article Alluvian.

Just to clarify I meant finished code, not cartridge rolling out of the assembly line. Finished product was a stupid term to use.

Hardest RPG was definitely Bard's Tale 1. I had to write my own maps to get through the sewers and catacombs! That was hard.

Quote from: Burl Swift

Quote from: Alluvian

This says he had six weeks, the ET video game entry mentioned eight...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Scott_Warshaw

In this interview he says it was about 5 1/2 weeks
http://www.digitpress.com/archives/arc00131.htm

More than a week, but still pretty amazing turnaround time.[/url]

Quote from: WayAbvPar

I remember this game. I had a pirated disk of it for my atari 800xl. It used graphics mode "7.5" and some refresh trickery to get 128 colors on screen at once, 4 colors max per scan line. I used to boot it just to watch the UFO come to earth and kidnap me for the intro.

Got pretty far in it, but never managed to finish it. It was supposed to be the first in a 7 disk series, if I recall correctly. But that was the only one that was published.

I find Steel Battalion is kicking my ass quite a bit. I've gotten as far as mission 6, then I died and had to start over... Damn you hardcore mech sim, so good yet so frustrating! *makes mental note to be quicker with the eject button*

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More than a week, but still pretty amazing turnaround time

Ah, sorry for the misinformation. I guess every time I thought back and remembered having heard it I must have shortened it abit. Still a good story.

Space Hulk was so hard we returned it. The Underdogs calls it "fiendishly complex".

I don't think we ever made it past the first mission; 30 seconds out of the gate and your team was all dead.

I have to check my old games... lots of dusty boxes in the attic.

c-64
Nemesis the Warlock
High Noon
Uuno Turhapuro Muuttaa Maalle

Amiga
Grand Monster Slam

PC
Space Hulk
Tie Fighter
Wing Commander I: Secret Missions I & II

Sweet memories...

Quote from: Stige

Hardest RPG was definitely Bard's Tale 1. I had to write my own maps to get through the sewers and catacombs! That was hard.

You must not have played Bard's Tale 2 then? Because it was much harder. The dungeons were just as complicated with darkness and spinners and teleports and so on. The monsters were far more deadly. In the final dungeon, it was not uncommon to run into those guys who would stone you in one hit. All three of your frontline characters would be stoned in the first round, regardless of how many you killed. You had to keep them revived all the time and the only way to do that really was to constantly cast Dreamspells. But the ZZGO code for the Dreamspell was hidden in the final dungeon. The final puzzle involved running back and forth, back and forth, back and forth around the dungeon level, which changed configuration, something like seven freaking times.

I'm glad I got the hint book, because there is NO way I would have finished that game without it. Even if you could solve the puzzles and the mapping issues, I don't know how you could survive without the Dreamspell...

In comparison, Bard's Tale III was a cakewalk. (I stupidly turned my Paladin into a Geomancer, though. Worst.... class... evar.)

Bruce

Quote from: SirBruce

Quote from: Stige

Hardest RPG was definitely Bard's Tale 1. I had to write my own maps to get through the sewers and catacombs! That was hard.

Stuff about Bard's Tale II.

Bruce

Tell me about it. That game was fuckin instane. But, it's easily one of the two most memorable RPG games I've played on the PC, the other being Pool of Radiance.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again...NOBODY can beat the Ancient Cave on Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals without playing it on an emulator and autosaving it about every ten seconds.

The dungeon consists of 100 levels and you enter it with your party level 1 and no items, armor or weapons (except 10 dinky potions). The enemies get progressively harder and to make it through you have to level up more than you would IN THE REST OF THE ENTIRE GAME. Its virtually impossible to get past about room 40, because the amount of enemies that spawn on each floor isn't enough to level you for living past that. The last 20-25 levels consist of gold/platinum dragons that oneshot your entire party to death if you meet them. The 99th level has an impossible glitched boss that you have to defeat in 3 rounds, otherwise he bugs out and you cannot fight him again and must start entirely over in Basement 1 at level 1.

The only way I beat this is to use an emulator, fight the couple monsters in the dungeon that infinitely summon to survive 40-75, and then autosave before going down every staircase to get a random floor with a clear path past the oneshotting dragons on the last 20-25 levels (probably took me about 10 retries for every floor to make it to the stairs without fighting). Then it took me (with all the superpowered blue items that you CAN start with on level 1 if you find them) at least 50-75 tries to beat the boss with autosave. Even then, I never actually beat him, I just managed to kill my entire party in 3 rounds which for some reason also counts as beating him. Do the fucking math on all of that if you DON'T use an autosaving emulator.