WoLK to feature Achievements.

[Lakov_Sanite]

LOTRO Deed system? The difference being that every single one of those look like grindy achievement. In LOTRO, a lot of the come from natural play, or slightly above natural play. That, and in LOTRO it is tied to the trait system, so some of them are useful enhancements or stat changers.

I ron ic ally. I was just talking with a friend at work about it, to me though I'd rather not tie a system like this to tangible gains, honestly that would just outright piss me off. Can you imagine that to increase stat X or ability Y you had to do some contrary thing like explore the map? not only does it not make sense but it's another 'necessary' grind for those who want to do anything end game. As it stands the wow system is entirely optional, it's not gonna help you kill arthas any faster and I really hope it stays that way.

[Mrbloodworth]

LOTRO Deed system? The difference being that every single one of those look like grindy achievement. In LOTRO, a lot of the come from natural play, or slightly above natural play. That, and in LOTRO it is tied to the trait system, so some of them are useful enhancements or stat changers.

I ron ic ally. I was just talking with a friend at work about it, to me though I'd rather not tie a system like this to tangible gains, honestly that would just outright piss me off. Can you imagine that to increase stat X or ability Y you had to do some contrary thing like explore the map? not only does it not make sense but it's another 'necessary' grind for those who want to do anything end game. As it stands the wow system is entirely optional, it's not gonna help you kill arthas any faster and I really hope it stays that way.

Thats the best part about the LOTRO system, most if not all make since. And as long as the system is included in the overall balance and goal, its not an issue. The Wow one is of course, tacked on, and the rewards meaningless for that reason, so they do not have to factor them in.

LOTRO Deed system? The difference being that every single one of those look like grindy achievement. In LOTRO, a lot of the come from natural play, or slightly above natural play. That, and in LOTRO it is tied to the trait system, so some of them are useful enhancements or stat changers.

Wait, falling more than 65 yards without dying is somehow more grindy than kill 120 goblins?

LOTRO has more than it's fair share of grindy deeds, just like WoW appears to have (from the lists I'm seeing) plenty of achievements that will happen over the natural course of play.

Most of the kill X number of things happens simply by doing quests in a given area, its not grindy at all. I guess we will see how the wow one feels when it goes live, but since its after the fact, i bet it will turn into a huge grind, as this stuff wasn't tracked before, so instead of doing quests and getting most of the way there (like lotro) people will be at level 70, and starting the acheavement at 0.

[cevik]

Most of the kill X number of things happens simply by doing quests in a given area, its not grindy at all. I guess we will see how the wow one feels when it goes live, but since its after the fact, i bet it will turn into a huge grind, as this stuff wasn't tracked before, so instead of doing quests and getting most of the way there (like lotro) people will be at level 70, and starting the acheavement at 0.

Perhaps they've added new quests, but when I played the game (at release) it was grindy as hell if you wanted any of those kill X deeds.  In fact the Harvest Flies in the Shire were so overcamped that there was constant bickering from people trying to get that deed complete while none of the assholes would form up a group and just share the damn kills.  All this was more a pain in the ass because the deed completion was actually useful to your character, unlike WoW's achievements which appear to only be worth bragging rights.

Having to grind out 120 mobs to get more Fort vs. wanting to grind out 120 kills for a pretty title seem like totally different territory to me.  One is optional, the other will eventually be a bar for entry into the "elite gamers clubz!!1!".

[Dren]

When I played LotR for a month I just kept thinking those achievements are silly because I didn't go out of my way to get them.  They aren't achievements if everyone gets them from doing something normal.  That's just part of their leveling/character development system.  It isn't the same as the WoW system being proposed at all.  Not apples to apples here.

"Hey, I got the 'made it out of newbie land alive' achievement!"
"Me Too!""Me Too!""Me Too!""Me Too!""Me Too!""Me Too!""Me Too!""Me Too!""Me Too!""Me Too!"

I much prefer them being "tacked on" and provide "useless" rewards.  If somebody wants to put on their poopsock to get them, go for it!  It doesn't bother me.  I might just do some of them myself for giggles.

[Lietgardis]

Any more details on this?  It seems highly improbable to me that Blizzard was tracking who all completed The Deadmines (or whatever) three years ago; a few of them (like Wailing Caverns) have Quests associated with them which presumably are tracked, but some don't (and it's possible to clear dungeons like Zul'Farak without completing the quest), so I wonder if they really do have data on this.

They don't have that data (because that would have been a ridiculous amount of otherwise useless shit to store).  They're not checking against quest completion either.  In the current beta build, for example, a current Hand of A'dal won't have the Kael and Vashj achievements.

They do store some interesting stuff -- like, which zone maps you've completely cleared (which, once you think about it, you realize that they have to store so they know how much of the map to show you).  They also have old stored statistics that have to do with gold.

[Tarami]

There are so many preconceptions cast at LotRO's deed system that I honestly can't bother to correct you guys. I can only say that you're wrong. Just don't mix up the endgame in LotRO with the endgame in WoW. The expectations are in two entirely different galaxies.

[Tebonas]

Some Lotro deeds are grindy (Harvest Flies and Slugs come to mind), but most come during natural game play or at least just a few kills short.

[Paelos]

There are so many preconceptions cast at LotRO's deed system that I honestly can't bother to correct you guys. I can only say that you're wrong. Just don't mix up the endgame in LotRO with the endgame in WoW. The expectations are in two entirely different galaxies.

God forbid we waste your time.

This is a place to goof off talking about games. Either explain yourself as best you can, or don't bother hitting the post button.

[Tarami]

God forbid we waste your time.

This is a place to goof off talking about games. Either explain yourself as best you can, or don't bother hitting the post button.

Fair enough.

There are about 500 deeds in LotRO. You can complete roughly 300 of these with any given class. Out of these, 3 are legendary traits, 15 or so are class traits and the rest are zone deeds. By the time you ding 50, you will have completed atleast one legendary, half of your class deeds and more than 100 zone deeds. Those are completed over the course of normal play. Now, if you went out of your way just a little you will probably complete another 100 zone deeds just because some of the early ones are really easy. Shifting your combat style a little will also bring you close to completing all your class deeds.

Yes, some of the early deeds are really easy. There's a significant portion of the level <20 deeds that pretty much everyone will get. That's the nature of newbie content. The largest kill deeds in game are 450 mobs. 150 for the title, 300 for the virtue trait (all kill deeds share that 1:2 ratio). Yes, these are often (really) grindy. Expect 4 or 5 hours of killing to get those. There are about 15 of those.

The kicker here is that by the time you cap, you will really have enough deeds done to partake in any existing endgame content in a meaningful way. The LotRO endgame isn't anal about stats and sure, your character will be better if you grind out all deeds. If you are going down the raiding route, you may be expected to flesh out your virtues a little, especially the ones granting health. Then again, that can sort of be expected when you choose that career. That's however the only significant situation where virtues are needed.

Beyond the obvious deeds, you also got the emote deeds, hobby deeds, diet deeds (Vegetarian/carnivore et.c.) and a plethora of hidden fluff that serves absolutely no mechanical point but to grant fancy titles to attach to your name.

My point is this; hyping a simple point collecting metagame and writing off LotRO's deeds as grind at the same time is just way out there.

[cevik]

The LotRO endgame isn't anal about stats and sure, your character will be better if you grind out all deeds. If you are going down the raiding route, you may be expected to flesh out your virtues a little, especially the ones granting health. Then again, that can sort of be expected when you choose that career. That's however the only significant situation where virtues are needed.

They aren't anal because there isn't enough of a playerbase to be overly selective.

Add in the grindiness of getting these deeds done, with the general douchebaggery of WoW's raiding player base, plus add in the fact that you suddenly have hundreds of people competing to get into the end game guilds, and you can understand why I think it would be a terrible idea for WoW's achievement system to advance your character.

Of course I think LOTRO's deed system would suck balls if they had 10 million subscribers.  "Ubar raiding guild recruiting 1 minstrel.  Must have 3 legendary traits, 12 class traits and at least 250 zone deeds.  Must be willing to raid at least 5 times per week."

[Paelos]

Are we debating that WoW is ripping off LOTRO's system? I think from the explanation giving about deeds having a meaningful effect on stats and abilities and the like, that's simply not the case.

I agree with Cevik, if they tried to put that into WoW, it would be horrific. The key rule to the asshole raiding game is that ANY advantage given, no matter how small and annoying hard to complete, becomes 100% mandatory. Thus, the less real effects that this Achievement system has the better.

[Valmorian]

The key rule to the asshole raiding game is that ANY advantage given, no matter how small and annoying hard to complete, becomes 100% mandatory.

Well, it's 100% mandatory for asshole raiding guilds, but then again most people don't join those guilds and don't really care.  This sort of have and have-not elitism already exists in the game through equipment, and I don't think adding traits would be any different than adding a new set of "must have" equipment (which they do with every expansion anyway).

[cevik]

This sort of have and have-not elitism already exists in the game through equipment, and I don't think adding traits would be any different than adding a new set of "must have" equipment (which they do with every expansion anyway).

It won't be any different, which is my point.  Now instead of "grind out this set of equipment" it will be "grind out this set of equipment and at least these traits."  While I realize that most of you around here aren't big into raiding, some of us are, and I'd hate to see some new grindy thing added to the "must have to raid" list.  And the fact of the matter is, if grinding out 90% of the achievements means that raiding will be e z mode, then some set of people will go out and grind out those achievements, with the end result being that raiding is balanced around that small subset of poopsockers so they won't advance too fast, and thus meaning the rest of us scrubs will be forced to either go grind out the achievements or not raid.

In the end, it will be a much much better system if it's totally optional, and it will only be totally optional if the biggest effect on your character is a nifty title or a vanity pet.  I like the system, but if it advances your character we are all doomed.

[Merusk]

You guys are arguing this like we don't already have a stellar example of what Cevik and Paelos are talking about.  We do, the EQ "AA" system. 

If you want to cater to exclusionary and elitist traits in a large-scale game, then by all means add-in those AAs or Deeds or whatever you want to call them.  You then face a dilemma like WoW faced around the time Naxx was released (which caused the subsequent nerf of Alchemy.)

Do you balance for the hardcore elites who use every single possible buff, trait, piece of gear and mod that can give them some kind of advantage?  If not and you do make it accessible enough to your greater player base, then you're going to have to understand when those hardcore players waltz through the content like it was nothing and begin decrying your game as boring and 'dead.' 

[K9]

Add in the grindiness of getting these deeds done, with the general douchebaggery of WoW's raiding player base, plus add in the fact that you suddenly have hundreds of people competing to get into the end game guilds, and you can understand why I think it would be a terrible idea for WoW's achievement system to advance your character.

This.

There's no reason for achievements to advance your character anyway. Achievements track advancement, they are not advancement in and of themselves.

[Paelos]

And that basically goes to the idea that if Blizzard was dumb enough to have Achievements grant real effects on advancement, then they would also be stupid enough to tune gameplay encounters based on those effects.

[Soln]

Any more details on this?  It seems highly improbable to me that Blizzard was tracking who all completed The Deadmines (or whatever) three years ago; a few of them (like Wailing Caverns) have Quests associated with them which presumably are tracked, but some don't (and it's possible to clear dungeons like Zul'Farak without completing the quest), so I wonder if they really do have data on this.

They don't have that data (because that would have been a ridiculous amount of otherwise useless shit to store).  They're not checking against quest completion either.  In the current beta build, for example, a current Hand of A'dal won't have the Kael and Vashj achievements.

They do store some interesting stuff -- like, which zone maps you've completely cleared (which, once you think about it, you realize that they have to store so they know how much of the map to show you).  They also have old stored statistics that have to do with gold.

Aye.  It is probably the same scenario as SWG around patch11, near the intro of CU when badges suddenly lit up with "all" the professions you had mastered and other relevant achievements.  Although, several were still missing for those early adopters.  Reason being that the "jedi code" had not been introduced till much later in the game and so none of exploration and theme park achievements were tracked.  Same deal-io -- Blizz was going to track every time you crossed the threshold into Deadmines.  And maybe similarly, every time you KO'd a boss. 

[Valmorian]

And the fact of the matter is, if grinding out 90% of the achievements means that raiding will be e z mode, then some set of people will go out and grind out those achievements, with the end result being that raiding is balanced around that small subset of poopsockers so they won't advance too fast, and thus meaning the rest of us scrubs will be forced to either go grind out the achievements or not raid.

This subset of the population needs to be ignored, and Blizzard is getting closer and closer to realizing this every patch and expansion.

[lamaros]

Not really, no.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Not really, no.

I disagree, the advent of making every raid have a smaller 10 man version? That alone is a 'huge deal' as far as online games are concerned. They are specifically, directly adding this for those who are 'teh hardcore' raiders. It's not gods gift to casual gaming mind you, as things like ZA are still very hard but still to say blizzard isn't moving away from the poopsocking crowd is crazy. EQ had 70 person raids, wow started with 40 and now we're down to 25 and 10, I think what people don't realize is that once the mmo market went from 500k subs to 12mil subs that the necessity to cater to catasses went down substantially

[Valmorian]

Not really, no.

Sure they are.  How can you argue otherwise when just about every change they make to this game is towards the casual gamer?  Smaller Raids, PvP gear available for gold in PvE, faster levelling from 1-60..  It just goes on and on.

[Ironwood]

You are, in fact, talking boaby, Lamaros.

They've been removing the wedge between casuals and hardcore for a while and thank fuck someone finally did.

If they could match the rate of new content with the changes to the old stuff which gives us access, I'd never get bored.

Fuck, that sentence was horrible.

[Mrbloodworth]

Not really, no.

Sure they are.  How can you argue otherwise when just about every change they make to this game is towards the casual gamer?  Smaller Raids, PvP gear available for gold in PvE, faster levelling from 1-60..  It just goes on and on.

Mounts at 30.

[Dren]

I've been doing 5, 10, and 25 person instances regularly now.  By far, regardless of lewt, I prefer 5 and 10 person instances.  I was going to go into a long list of reasons why, but it doesn't really matter.  I have the time, characters, gear, etc. to choose to do 25, but I would rather not.  The experience of a well run 10 man raid compared to a 25 man raid is head and shoulders better for me.

Now, add in NOT having the time or the gear or the characters and the difference gets even bigger.

Providing a substructure beneath the 25 man instances that is on par with said 25 man instances is a very positive move for Blizzard to make.  We can continue to argue the execution of that substructure, but we'll argue about just about anything really.

[Merusk]

We're using the time definition of "Casual" here not the player ability, right?  In that case, I'd agree.

If we're talking 'casual' in terms of easy vs 'hardcore' for challenging gaming, I'd disagree. 

Blizz is slowly weaning folks off of catassing.  It's got to be slow, because the culture was so fucking ingraned it's scary.  Imagine if they released the game 4 years ago with the access to the endgame that is proposed in wotlk.   I think most of the players would have ignored the game because "it's too fucking easy."

Hell, some of the people I played EQ with quit WoW back then because, and I quote, "This game is too easy.  Even playing a Holy Priest there's no difficulty trying to level or quest and I'm bored.  I'm going back to EQ." 

I prefer 5 and 10 mans too, but the biggest drawback is the number of classes we have available.  It makes certain things too easy with the right combination of classes, which marganalizes others.  Still.

[lamaros]

You are, in fact, talking boaby, Lamaros.

They've been removing the wedge between casuals and hardcore for a while and thank fuck someone finally did.

If they could match the rate of new content with the changes to the old stuff which gives us access, I'd never get bored.

Fuck, that sentence was horrible.

The lower end is getting less hardcore, yes, but the upper end isn't really. The stated just recently that they're not going to nerf KJ because it's meant to be hard. They have always tuned that hardest content in the game around the people who would grind achievements if it gave a PvE advantage.

They have undoubtedly made the progression from lower stuff to harder stuff a much more natural progression but they have always tuned significant elements of the game around min-maxing, that just common sense.

10 or 25's are not more or less 'hardcore' either. I'm what you would call a hardcore player, when I play the game (though I have played since release I've only been subbed for around 1/4 of that time), but more 10 mans is something I wanted more than many casuals who probably don't raid at all.

Anyway, this is by the by. I responded to Valmorian saying that players who min-max with OCD need to be ignored. That's not true. These are the people who find out things that are broken, who help determine what is balanced and what is not, and who help determie what is fun. The consumable change is the classic example of this.

Prior to the consumable change everyone who raided, if they raided, used consumables because they were so bloody powerful. As I said it was Gurk on EJ who pointed out just how terrible powerful they were and how fucking annoying they were as an aspect of gameplay. Who the fuck wants to play a game where you have to spend half your time collecting shit before you can play? Yet the result of that change, though a move away from 'hardcore', can clearly be seen as stemming from hardcore players pointing out game issues, not casual ones.

tl;dr: Yes the game is becomming less hardcore in many respects, and for the better, but it is not because Blizzard is ignoring the min-maxers, it's because it's listening to the min-maxers when they say "that is stupid, don't do that." If they listened to 'casuals' who wanted achievements to give you shit that doubled the player power it would fuck the game over much more than anything else.

Now there is a different 'hardcore', which says "we want grinds and stupid shit! fuck the casuals", and Blizzard has indeed done well by ignoring them, but that's not the hardcore we're talking about in the context of this discussion.

[Mrbloodworth]

There are quite a few things that blizzard seems to be, um, "Noticing" from LOTRO.

If they listened to 'casuals' who wanted achievements to give you shit that doubled the player power it would fuck the game over much more than anything else.

Thats not even the case, at all. I don't care about the context this was in, but your view of casual play, and players is highly tainted (unless your only talking about some forum about Wow, and responses to this addition). The LOTRO Deed system does nothing of the sort, this isn't blizzard we are talking here, its turbine. Nothing in the deed system makes you "more powerful" (Different, yes, tweaks stats, yes, but nothing like the huge number gaps presented by blizzard), thats a blizzard thing, what it does is add yet more, custom utility to the class, IF thats the utility you want. Any increases of power deeds and traits do give, have been balanced agent since day 1.

Comparing the two, if all well and good, but they are two diffrent games, with two diffrent approaches. Your very right that at this point, Wow cant have the achievements matter with out re balancing the game. But then again, thats what makes them worthless IMO.

Also, as i have stated before, LOTRO has 3,5,10, and 25 man Raids and instaces, now and comming. So, there is another one.

I just find it funny, that LOTRO has been panned by so many, but once the systems are integrated into Wow, in a shaved down fashion nonetheless, its suddenly the next version of sliced bread.

IMO, LOTRO is superior in most every regard, but of course thats my opinion, and i don't have 3 years of catassing invested in Wow eather.

[lamaros]

Another example of hardcore people pointing out problems with new stuff that might make the game more 'hardcore' going on at EJ:

My concern is with regards to PvE and PvP. Right now, if a druid raids Feral and PvPs as Restoration, there's no hitch. He slaps on a second set of gear, which is gemmed and enchanted appropriately. Last I checked, however, he doesn't equip a different spell book. Does this mean he's forced to re-inscribe for PvP, lest he wants to rip huge Shreds in his healing gear? I'm not even sure how they can get around this, save for allowing load outs like Warhammer's Tactics system or making them temporary/cheap as fuck. (The latter is incredibly annoying, by the way.)

People who want to be ubercompetitive on a min-max level will look at shit like inscriptions and think, that could be fucked up:

It's a Wednesday evening between my guild's Tuesday and Thursday raids, and I'm feeling like a bit of PvP. So, I:

- spend gold to respec my talents
- build out my talents
- spend gold to buy inscriptions to match
- restructure my inscriptions
- do it all over again the next night for my raid!

That's absurd.

You want these people to be paid attention to because the things that think about, though they impact min-maxers most of all, usually have application to 'casual' players. In fact, they are often much more annoying for casual players due to the fact that those people have left inclination to futz around with an annoying system just for a reward. You ignore min-maxing observations and you end up with a system in which only those people who PvP all the time do really well and the forums could be full of "inscriptions in PvP are shit, I'm always getting smashed when I try play casual with my friends just because I like to do instances too".

There are quite a few things that blizzard seems to be, um, "Noticing" from LOTRO.

Blizzard has always borrowed good ideas from all over the place; it's one of their best attributes when it comes to making fun games. The ability to listen and be willing to change and take on the good ideas of others isn't as common as it should be.

[Tarami]

I just find it funny, that LOTRO has been panned by so many, but once the systems are integrated into Wow, in a shaved down fashion nonetheless, its suddenly the next version of sliced bread.

<Keanu Reeves> Hey, that's my line!

My point is this; hyping a simple point collecting metagame and writing off LotRO's deeds as grind at the same time is just way out there.

It's all falling on deaf ears, because Blizzard is like Apple and design. It doesn't really matter what they do with WoW anymore; it has transcended common sense and now defines "good design".

[cevik]

It's all falling on deaf ears, because Blizzard is like Apple and design. It doesn't really matter what they do with WoW anymore; it has transcended common sense and now defines "good design".

I thought that Blizzard was like Apple, because no matter how good their design is, the trendy kids will hate it to prove how cool they are.

[Mrbloodworth]

I don't hate wow, in fact, i don't "hate" any game. I dislike, and think some aspects are not a good idea, but i don't do the "This game sucks!!1!!" crap. I also don't do black and white, And i never trash on developers simply because of, well anything.

I enjoyed my time in wow.

I have already been labeled the love bug round here, lol.

[cevik]

I don't hate wow, in fact, i don't "hate" any game. I dislike, and think some aspects are not a good idea, but i don't do the "This game sucks!!1!!" crap. I also don't do black and white, And i never trash on developers simply because of, well anything.

I enjoyed my time in wow.

I have already been labeled the love bug round here, lol.

My point was that it's no where near as black and white as Tarami wants to paint it.  I personally don't care about the achievement system in wow, nor do I know enough about it's design to tell you whether or not it's good or bad.  I do know enough about the achievement system in LOTRO to tell you I do not want that system in WoW.  The reason I know this is because if that system ends up in WoW, it will be used to force people to grind out achievements before they can experience bits of content, in fact, bits of content that I want to explore.  That is not something that sounds entertaining to me.

For some reason, Tarami says that the above opinion makes me a Blizzard fanboi and a LOTRO hata!

[Valmorian]

The reason I know this is because if that system ends up in WoW, it will be used to force people to grind out achievements before they can experience bits of content, in fact, bits of content that I want to explore.  That is not something that sounds entertaining to me.

How would it be different than, say, tacking on another 10 levels and forcing you to grind through THOSE to see the content?

[cevik]

The reason I know this is because if that system ends up in WoW, it will be used to force people to grind out achievements before they can experience bits of content, in fact, bits of content that I want to explore.  That is not something that sounds entertaining to me.

How would it be different than, say, tacking on another 10 levels and forcing you to grind through THOSE to see the content?

It's not really.  But out of the options of "kill 450 murlocs" vs. "go quest and gain 10 levels", and especially the option of "go quest and gain 10 levels AND kill 450 murlocs", "go quest and gain 10 levels" sounds much more entertaining to me.

YMMV.

[Tarami]

My point was that it's no where near as black and white as Tarami wants to paint it.  I personally don't care about the achievement system in wow, nor do I know enough about it's design to tell you whether or not it's good or bad.  I do know enough about the achievement system in LOTRO to tell you I do not want that system in WoW.  The reason I know this is because if that system ends up in WoW, it will be used to force people to grind out achievements before they can experience bits of content, in fact, bits of content that I want to explore.  That is not something that sounds entertaining to me.

For some reason, Tarami says that the above opinion makes me a Blizzard fanboi and a LOTRO hata!

I don't recall addressing you in person a single time cevik. No, I never did. I was addressing you only as one of many misinterpreters of how LotRO's Deed system eventually works out. I've already stated that LotRO's and WoW's endgames can't be compared, in this very thread. You see grind (but only when it happens in LotRO?), I'm saying there's effectively very little grind thanks to the way it's implemented. Most of all it's one-off grind.

Here's the deal: If WoW gets an achievement system that works just nearly as well as Deeds do in LotRO, it will be bloody great/lots of fun. Deeds are to LotRO what Talents are to WoW - elusive at first, subtly brilliant in a longer perspective.

Oh, and no, I've never owned an Apple product. I have played WoW for nearly three years, however.

Now, peace.