Buy Me a PC - now seeking new advice!

[schild]

The Q9450 is 60CAD more than that processor. And has 8MB more level 2 cache and is outright Much Faster. But then, I recommend this processor to Everybody. Also, my fan died on my 8800 GT. I think. Downloaded speedfan at the cafe I'm posting from, will test when I get home. Thankfully the heatpipes on the ridiculous cooler are adequate enough for most games.

[Trippy]

Are you planning on overclocking?

Honestly, I haven't decided. For everyday use I probably wouldn't need to, but it's nice to have that little bit extra available if I need it.

What would you recommend?

Actually now that I look I doesn't like there's anything faster than 5-5-5-15 for DDR2 1066 in the 1 GB size so it doesn't matter.

[Engels]

The Q9450 is 60CAD more than that processor. And has 8MB more level 2 cache and is outright Much Faster. But then, I recommend this processor to Everybody. Also, my fan died on my 8800 GT. I think. Downloaded speedfan at the cafe I'm posting from, will test when I get home. Thankfully the heatpipes on the ridiculous cooler are adequate enough for most games.

Intel Core 2 Quad Q9450 Yorkfield 2.66GHz 12MB L2 Cache LGA 775 95W price : 329 at newegg
AMD Phenom 9950 BLACK EDITION 2.6GHz 4 x 512KB L2 Cache 2MB L3 price : $235 at newgg

Gaming benchmarks

Upshot? To my view, the $100 bucks more eeks out a bit more performance in the Intel, but neither of them are slouchy processors. If you want to shave a C note off your bill, and you are an AMD fan anyways, this is probably a decent bang for the buck.

[Reg]

One question Stormwaltz - can't you get a good deal on a PC through work?  I'm assuming Bioware goes through a fair number and must have a relationship with a local vendor. When I've worked for companies like that I've often gotten a good deal on PCs that way. Even when the company itself won't do anything to help me with the PC the vendor often offers me a good price just to get a little more goodwill with my company.

If I can do it without paying too much of a premium I think it's worth it to have a relationship with a local brick and mortar store. When something goes wrong it's nice to be able to throw the PC in the trunk rather than go through the shipping hassle.

[Tale]

Something to consider if choosing AMD ...

Intel Core 2 Duo and Core 2 Quad have dominated for a couple of years now. They almost knocked AMD out of consideration. Die-hard AMD fans switched to Intel processors. Even Apple went to Intel processors. Games currently in development will assume Core 2 Duo/Quad as normal.

This is not the same as the AMD vs Intel decision we used to make in the old days.

(edit - i are have extra words)

[Stormwaltz]

One question Stormwaltz - can't you get a good deal on a PC through work?

We do have a deal with a local vendor, but it's not always greatly beneficial. As it's been explained to me, they provide discounts on a percentage of their markup, but never on an item they have to order for you. I tried to get a $700 LCD flatscreen from them last year; because it was something they'd have to order for me, I wouldn't have received any discount.

Likely as not I'd only see a significant discount on parts that were recently released (high markup) but not wildly popular (i.e. sold out and have to be reordered). I will be looking into it, but right now NCIX is showing me cheap and convenient. I can get everything from one source at one time, they'll build and test it, and they take PayPal.

[Ralence]

  I'm a former diehard AMD fan, and I've even switched both of my PC's over to Intel in the past 6 months.  I like the E8400 if you're doing mostly gaming (At this point quad cores don't really make much of a difference), and it's at the best price/performance point if you can pick one up for under $200US.  You can push an E8400 to 4ghz on air if you are going to OC.

  The other consideration would be the Nehalem chips that are due at the end of Sept/Early Oct.  Buying high end now may not be the best route to take, with the new tech coming so soon, prices on the current market are sure to drop considerably, not to mention the fact that it's ANOTHER new socket type, so you're future upgradability will be limited.   Link to Tom's Hardware Nehalem preview  23% increase in cpu benchmarks at same clock/cores from the Nehalem chipset.

    The one other thing that scared me was;

Video Cards
Radeon HD 4850 OEM 625MHZ 512MB GDDR3 1.986GHZ PCI-E Dual DVI-I - 2x $209.99 = $419.98

  The 4850 is a heat MONSTER.  I'd be pretty scared to run 2 of them without at least considering aftermarket cooling for both, as well as some serious airflow or water considerations.  My single 4850 (oc to 690/1128) with a fan tweak is running at 52C idle, stock it was in the 70c range before I put serious effort into driving the temp down.  52C may not seem like a lot, but if it's 70C before, that mean's I'm pushing all of that heat into the box, and that's at idle.  Current fan modifications keep it running at a higher rate, and consequently makes it a lot noisier than I desire, so if that's a concern for you, it's something to think about.

HIH

[schild]

Something got tangled in the fan on my vid card. Burnt out. Going to get a new one today. /snarl

[Lantyssa]

DDR2 Memory (RAM)
Corsair XMS2 TWIN2X2048-9136C5D 2GB 2X1GB PC2-9136 DDR2-1142 CL 5-5-5-15-2T 240PIN Dual Memory Kit - $575.39

Nearly $600 for 4 GB of memory?  I know you're going for an extreme system, but this seems pricey for not much benefit.

[Reg]

Personally I think you get the best value staying a step or two back from the cutting edge. I'd rather spend half of what Stormwaltz is spending and upgrade twice as often.

[schild]

What's weird is my Corsair XMS2 Twinx 4GB pack cost me uhhhh $80. Same latency, just slower DDR2.

[DeathInABottle]

So I've done some shopping, and I've come up with what I think will be an okay, reasonably cheap build at ncix.com (which will ship to Canada).  I'd love to hear comments, since I really don't know about compatibility issues.

Is there any reason why you are going with AMD instead of Intel for the CPU?

I read a price/performance article comparing Intel's lower range Core 2 Duo to AMD's X2 range, and AMD came out favourably for about $40 less.  Plus, the motherboard I'm going with explicitly lists compatibility with the X2.  That said, I'm thinking you're right about Intel being the better choice in terms of the rest of the market, Tale.

Oh well.  Ordered.  I picked up some last-minute deals, upgrading the hard drive to 500 GB for free, spending less on the mouse and on Vista, and getting a BFG 8800 GT instead of a Palit.  That plus a 22" monitor came to ~$1200.  Can't WAIT for this thing to arrive.

[Stormwaltz]

The 4850 is a heat MONSTER.  I'd be pretty scared to run 2 of them without at least considering aftermarket cooling for both, as well as some serious airflow or water considerations.

I can add water cooling (NCIX offers those installed too), but is there an ATI card that's "almost as good" without the heat problems?

Nearly $600 for 4 GB of memory?  I know you're going for an extreme system, but this seems pricey for not much benefit.

Actually, it's $600 for just 2GB. I'm not going to use Vista -- I'm waiting for the "fixed" version due in the next couple years. Since XP can only handle under 3GB of RAM, I figured it would behoove me to shoot for quality in place of quantity.

Another question for those with superior knowledge -- how can I figure out how much power this will draw? I have a 750w power supply configured now, but that was a blatent guess. With two video cards, should I get a 1000w supply?

[rattran]

The problem with the 4950 is it exhausts into the case. Get a single 4870, it exhausts outside. Then turn up the default fan speed so it runs cooler. Mine idles at 39C with the fan at 60% on the latest drivers.

You can always add another, or a 4870x2 when they're released next month, if you need more video bang.

[Ralence]

Another question for those with superior knowledge -- how can I figure out how much power this will draw? I have a 750w power supply configured now, but that was a blatent guess. With two video cards, should I get a 1000w supply?

http://extreme.outervision.com/psucalculator.jsp

  This will tell you how much power your system needs.

[Ingmar]

The 4850 is a heat MONSTER.  I'd be pretty scared to run 2 of them without at least considering aftermarket cooling for both, as well as some serious airflow or water considerations.

I can add water cooling (NCIX offers those installed too), but is there an ATI card that's "almost as good" without the heat problems?

Nearly $600 for 4 GB of memory?  I know you're going for an extreme system, but this seems pricey for not much benefit.

Actually, it's $600 for just 2GB. I'm not going to use Vista -- I'm waiting for the "fixed" version due in the next couple years. Since XP can only handle under 3GB of RAM, I figured it would behoove me to shoot for quality in place of quantity.

Another question for those with superior knowledge -- how can I figure out how much power this will draw? I have a 750w power supply configured now, but that was a blatent guess. With two video cards, should I get a 1000w supply?

I can't answer your power question, but even with XP you might be better off spending less on more not-quite-as-good RAM and then using what you saved to get the 64 bit version of the OS so you can recognize more memory. Of course 64 bit XP may no longer be available, not sure. (Vista has the same limitation btw.)

[schild]

There is no reason whatsoever to go to 64-bit XP, may as well go straight to Vista.

[Stormwaltz]

My primary objection to Vista is that it requires so much RAM to merely operate. I don't actually gain the two GB of RAM I'm paying for if one of them is always occupied by the OS.

Some copies of XP 64 are available on Ebay for ~$130, but I think I agree with Schild. A quick bit of research suggests XP64 has as many compatibility problems as Vista, but it's not supported anymore. Its MS web site consists solely of a link to the Vista site.

Great link, Ralence, thanks. EDIT: Fascinating. Even with 40% power supply aging factored in, my original setup came out as 633 watts. Looks like the 750 will work just fine.

Incidentally, I didn't know about power supply aging. That explains why I had to replace my current computer's halfway through its life.

[Engels]

Really man, RAM's speed just isn't worth that price tag. Buy what Schild proposes, and spend the money on a velociraptor hard drive if you want a speed boost somewhere.

[Stormwaltz]

Another test using some recommended changes. The RAM is significantly cheaper, but the final price is higher because of the two outwards-venting 4870 model video cards and the Velociraptor hard drive. Apparently they only have one raptor model with more than 74GB of storage, and it's as bleeding-edge pricey as the old RAM. I figure it won't actually help to have the fast drive if I can't install more than one modern game at a time on it.

So the 1TB HD is the secondary, used for safe storage of docs, mp3s, and non-intensive/older games. The fast HD will be for the OS, utility programs, and whatever high-end games/MMORPGs I'm playing at the moment. This is still a 2GB XP system.

The calculated power need with new video cards and 40% aging is 745w, which is a bit close to the power source capacity. I may drop the 3.5" floppy just to shave off 6w of draw.

EDIT: It's not that I want a bleeding edge system, necessarily. It's just that I know from long experience that I only get a chance to upgrade every 4-5 years, and I need to make sure that what I get is reasonably future-proofed.

Opinions?

Processor (CPU)
AMD Phenom X4 9850 Black Edition Quad Core Processor Socket AM2 2.5GHZ 4MB Cache 125W Retail Box - $264.48
   
Motherboard
ASUS M3A32-MVP Deluxe AMD 790FX AM2+ 4PCI-E16 CrossFireX 2PCI SATA2 RAID Sound GBLAN Motherboard - $214.99

DDR2 Memory (RAM)
Corsair XMS2 TWIN2X2048-8500C5D 2GB 2X1GB PC2-8500 DDR2-1066 CL 5-5-5-15-2T Dual Channel Memory - $149.98

Video Cards
Radeon HD 4870 OEM 750MHZ 512MB GDDR5 3.6GHZ PCI-E Dual DVI-I - 2x $309.99 = $619.98

CPU Cooling
Arctic Cooling Freezer 64 PWM AM2 S754 S939 S940 900-2200RPM 40CFM 4PIN Heatsink Fan - $27.42
   
Power Supply
Coolermaster Real Power 750W ATX 12V V2.2 SLI Active PFC 80PLUS Power Supply 120MM Fan - $132.25

Hard Drive 1
Western Digital Velociraptor WD3000GLFS 300GB SATA2 10000RPM 5.5MS 16MB 3.5IN Hard Drive OEM - $89.00
   
Hard Drive 2
Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 1000GB 1TB SATA2 7200RPM 32MB Cache NCQ Hard Drive OEM - $329.99
   
DVD Writer
Samsung SH-S203N Black SATA DVD+RW 20X8X16 DVD-RW 20X6X16 DL18X/12X Lightscribe DVD Writer OEM W/ SW - $36.01

DVD-ROM
ASUS 16X DVD-ROM Drive SATA Retail Box W/ Black & Beige Faceplates - $26.45
   
Floppy
Sony Black 1.44MB 3.5IN Floppy Drive ( OEM ) - $10.50

Sound Card
Creative Sound Blaster X-FI Elite Pro PCI 24BIT/192KHZ Sound Card W/ Breakout Box & Remote - $282.72

YOUR TOTAL
All quoted prices are in CANADIAN DOLLARS    $2,653.54 (was: $2,637.96)

[Engels]

You know...if you wanted to be a total speed demon, you could get 3 more velociraptors, put the 4 into RAID 5 array (your motherboard allows this).. <evil grin> Your case, the Lian Li, would accomodate the 5 drives, and since they're housed below decks with a devider, they shouldn't add too much to heat, although of course, you're liable to get a wee bit more noise.

I honestly am not sold on AMD Phenom, tho. Tale brought up some good points about AMD.

[Stormwaltz]

I honestly am not sold on AMD Phenom, tho. Tale brought up some good points about AMD.

Yeah, I hear them. But I tried a modified configuration with the Intel Q9450 and a good Asus motherboard, and the price ballooned to nearly $2900.

EDIT: Maybe someone can suggest a better motherboard than the P5E series that can handle this particular hardware configuration? The only one I could find that mentioned everything I needed included onboard WiFi that I don't need, and cost $350.

[schild]

So, what you're saying is, that place is way overpriced.

My machine, all told, cost $1200. $1500 if you count the case.

[Stormwaltz]

So, what you're saying is, that place is way overpriced.

Possibly. But I did choose a pair of fancy-pants $310 video cards and hard drives at $330 and $200, so maybe it's my own doing.

[Trippy]

Another question for those with superior knowledge -- how can I figure out how much power this will draw? I have a 750w power supply configured now, but that was a blatent guess. With two video cards, should I get a 1000w supply?

NVIDIA provides a nice page with the recommended power supplies depending on which SLI setup you want:

http://www.slizone.com/object/slizone_build_psu.html

Dunno if ATI/AMD provides something similiar but you might want to poke around their sites.

[Trippy]

So, what you're saying is, that place is way overpriced.

Possibly. But I did choose a pair of fancy-pants $310 video cards and hard drives at $330 and $200, so maybe it's my own doing.

That 1 TB hard drive price doesn't look right. I see it at $199. Are you buying a pair of open box ones or something?

[SnakeCharmer]

If it were me, I'd ixnay the extra dvd drive, the velociraptor, the sound card, the floppy drive, and do one or all of the following:
1)  Get more RAM, go with Vista 64 - pocket the cash
2)  Get more RAM, go with Vista, switch to Intel setup
3)  Put the extra to a kick ass monitor

BTW, what resolution are you expecting to play at?

[Trippy]

He already has a nice monitor and he likes the sound card (he says he's an audiophile).

[Stormwaltz]

That 1 TB hard drive price doesn't look right. I see it at $199. Are you buying a pair of open box ones or something?

That's the one I rounded up to $200. The $330 drive is the 300GB Velociraptor.

My monitor is a 21" LCD with 1600x1200 native resolution. EDIT: This one.

I think dropping the second DVD and floppy drives are a good idea, though it only saves ~$45. I probably wouldn't use them very often.

Vista... ugh. Really, no.

[Reg]

Is Vista really so bad even now? Everything I've read says it's fine on a system fast enough to handle it.

[schild]

Is Vista really so bad even now?

No.

[Ookii]

Is Vista really so bad even now?

No.

I will go beyond this and say Vista is a delight to use.

[Stormwaltz]

Does it still occupy around one gig of RAM just to run?

If not, I'll change to Vista and 4GB. Really, that's the only issue for me. Paying for 4GB and getting only 3 sticks in my craw.

[schild]

Vista uses a lot of RAM. But the increased performance and stability I gained in terms of alt-tabbing made it worth it. I alt-tab like it's more fun than a game itself and Vista hasn't had issues with really any games I can think of once I've patched up to date. And really, you were about to spend a $7 times what I paid for RAM on 2 GB and would not have seen better performance. Once again, 2 sticks of 2GB DDR2-800 or hell, even go 8GB and go with Vista 64.

[rattran]

I use vista64 with 8gigs of memory and a minimal swap file. It's very, very nice. The only problems I've had have been with addon sound cards. One didn't have drivers before I sent it away, and the Xfi has creative drivers, which blow goats.

I'm using onboard sound, Realtek HD audio is acceptable.