Blizzard confirms paladin overhaul.

[Montague]

After 3 years of trying to put perfume on a pig:

http://wowpaladin.org/2008/07/07/blizz-says-paladins-are-changing-in-wotlk/

About time, and not totally unexpected. With DK's coming and Holy Paladins gimped in arenas Blizzard had to know the paladin population would plummet to nothing without something being done.

[Nebu]

I wonder if this will be as spectacular as the shaman changes.

[Montague]

I wonder if this will be as spectacular as the shaman changes.

Undoubtedly. I can see why the talents aren't up in the alpha yet - it takes time to come up with talents and mechanics that seem effective at face value but are epic fail at high-end raiding or PVP.

[Nebu]

I would love to see Blizzard do something to both help paladins while simultaneously giving warriors a stronger role as a 5 man tank for instances. Maybe this isn't possible. 

[Chimpy]

Paladins have problems, but I can think of other classes that are less viable than they are. They also have gotten a lot better treatment from Blizzard than other classes (shaman before BC come to mind).

EDIT: Giving Holy pallies some form of multi-target heal or nifty HoT/on heal buff would go a long way to making that tree better. Prot needs some kind of single target debuff a la sunder or mangle to help with aggro on non-AoE situations. Ret definitely needs a decent "I don't have a windfury totem" DPS mechanic, as well as something to give alliance ret pallies something comparable to SoB.

Arena "viability" has totally broken the game too.

[Merusk]

Before we get into the usual crap of "WTF do you mean, x is good y needs help!"  let's just make a blanket statement that balance is impossible, and everything could be tweaked one place or another.   Also, keep in mind that sometimes when you think "omg class x is epic fail because of y" it's really because that's how the class is intended to be. You don't like it, it's usually best to play the class that HAS that feature.  For example, I get really frustrated at a warlock's lack of quick-cast nukes that won't rape my face in pve and non-channeled AOE.  I live with it now because of all the other great features of the class.

That said, I think Hybrids need more help than most, because Blizz hasn't ever really defined a clear role for any of them. They've let the players figure it out and then started to shape the class around that. Over time.  A LOT of time. 

[Fordel]

They need to Turn Holy paladins into DaoC Friars/Wardens.

If people love anything, it's DaoC Friars 

[K9]

From my point of view Paladins don't need to be made better healbots, they just need their heals to be more workable in DPS and Prot roles. Thus becoming DPS with the added utility of off-healing. The "holy warrior" thing. I don't know how you'd work this though.

For example, I get really frustrated at a warlock's lack of quick-cast nukes that won't rape my face in pve and non-channeled AOE.

Seed of Corruption? (Shadowfury?). Apparently you're getting some AoE DoT in WoTLK too. I'm not sure what you mean by a quick-cast nuke, for a class with so many options for periodic damage you also have a decent range of nukes.

[Fordel]

Off-Healing is a flawed concept. You either bring enough healers to an encounter, or you don't. You don't Off-Heal the way you can Off-Tank. When an Off-Tank isn't tanking, it is providing more DPS. You can always use more DPS. You can't always use more healing, in fact, you rarely do use 'extra' healing.


Prot (Paladin) needs a secondary 'dps/utility' role for when it isn't tanking, similar to how a Prot warrior can swap out the shield and put out respectable numbers. (Not Stellar, but certainly significant enough that you'd notice. Full sunder stacks and shouts also help raid dps etc.) As it stands, Prot paladins when not tanking, have no role, no job, no use.

Ret needs raid utility and controllable DPS. CC would be nice, but I don't expect it. They also need gear that makes sense.

Holy needs to not exist as it is. The Blessing/FoLight Bot as a concept needs to fucking go. Far, far, away! The lolight play style is something very few people will miss, and the majority of Paladins didn't sign on for it to begin with. Turn Holy into the melee healing tree. Instead of doing extra damage, a Holy paladins attacks heal party members. Can have a couple of melee special attacks that Proc things similar to Holy Nova. Make a buff that paladins can put onto a friendly player that transfers Damage done by the Paladin into Healing onto the buffed target. Combine with a couple instant cast heals and a potential reworking of the paladins casted heals to be usable while meleeing and you'll get something people might actually want to play and might actually have a working role in a raid.


Overall, the gear needs to be streamlined across all three specs. Prot Paladins need to use the same Gear as Prot warriors, they also need the same base requirements, no more ridiculous uncrushability shenanigans. Ret needs to use the Warrior/DK DPS gear. Holy ALSO needs to use the same gear, so you don't have half a dozen varieties of plate armor. The entire class needs to be moved OFF of spellpower and onto attackpower, with the spells scaling off of AP the way DK's will work.

The Seal/Judge system? That also needs to not exist, but I don't see it going away. It's someones pet idea at Blizzard HQ. The system is so passive its down right boring. It's also bloated and ineffective. Half the seals only exist to be judged, most have questionable value with a few standing out so far ahead of the others its silly.

[Musashi]

That said, I think Hybrids need more help than most, because Blizz hasn't ever really defined a clear role for any of them.

Isn't that like... one of the selling points for hybrids though?  I mean, when developers define roles, we get Prot Warriors and Holy Priests.  I think that while most classes in WoW are really hybrids when you consider their multiple specs, that the ones which we think of as classic hybrids have roles that are intentionally vague.

I also think that if they follow through with the rumor that they're planning on giving players multiple specs then that will pretty much change the whole PvE/PvP balance ballgame.  Rock/Paper/Scissors, as you point out, will never go away.

[Fordel]

The roles aren't vague, they are non-existent for a lot of hybrid specs.


People know what is expected of a Feral Druid or a Shadow Priest.

No one knows what a Moonkin or Ret Paladin is supposed to do other then 'waste' a slot better used by another class.

[Musashi]

No one knows what a Moonkin or Ret Paladin is supposed to do other then 'waste' a slot better used by another class.

PvP?

Not everyone raids dude.  Of course you already know that.

I guess my response was mainly to point out that if they give us multiple specs then nobody will care about specialization or loosely defined roles.  That is except guild leaders who will then have to figure out how to handle passing out loot for people's 'other' spec.  Also that I think in general that it's good that one spec doesn't try to be all things to all people because it allows for variety.  And balancing all things to all people is impossible as Merusk's post that I replied to already acknowledged.  Variety is good.  I like it.  So now we'll get (hopefully if the rumors are true) two varieties for each of our dudes.  I, for one, welcome our new Blizzard overlords.

[Paelos]

I hate all the specs bullshit, honestly. Does anybody have fun with this outside of pure DPS classes? I don't enjoy hamstringing my entire game so I can tank. I know pure healers feel the same way. If they institute an actual 2 spec system in WotLK, then I think they've made massive strides in actually providing more overall utility to every class and every encounter. This would fix a lot of the bullshit tradeoff issues that pallys, priests, warriors, druids, and shamans have to live with, and it would mean that we could break down some of the rigidity of class/spec balance in raiding.

[Selby]

I know pure healers feel the same way.

There is a reason my priest is always shadow and my shammy is always elemental or enhancement.  Leveling a solo healer sucks.  Playing a healer outside of high end raiding or grouping tends to suck too.  Some people don't mind it, I do.

[Fordel]

No one knows what a Moonkin or Ret Paladin is supposed to do other then 'waste' a slot better used by another class.

PvP?

Not everyone raids dude.  Of course you already know that.

Both of those specs fail at that too. 

[lamaros]

I know pure healers feel the same way.

There is a reason my priest is always shadow and my shammy is always elemental or enhancement.  Leveling a solo healer sucks.  Playing a healer outside of high end raiding or grouping tends to suck too.  Some people don't mind it, I do.

On the other hand, being a Shadow Priest sucks moderatly too. If you're not raiding or grouping as a priest you're better off playing as another class if you ask me.

I like playing healer with a Priest, it has many awesome tools. Much better than playing healer on a Pally.

I will be interested to see how they go with the Pally. I doubt they'll do anything that will make me want to play it instead of a DK, but at least they might make it into a fun class to have as an alt.

[apocrypha]

Off-Healing is a flawed concept. You either bring enough healers to an encounter, or you don't. You don't Off-Heal the way you can Off-Tank. When an Off-Tank isn't tanking, it is providing more DPS. You can always use more DPS. You can't always use more healing, in fact, you rarely do use 'extra' healing.

One thing off-healing is good for is making life easier for the main healer *and* main tank in 5-mans. Off-healers can chuck the odd heal at the rogue who won't rein in their DPS, or the mage who cannot learn how to stop taking agro for instance, thus leaving the main healer to concentrate of keeping the MT alive.

In 5-man PUG's an off-healer or two can really grease the wheels sometimes.

[Dren]

My first "main" was a Paladin.  That character is now a healadin and is all but shelved now.  Once I got my priest up to snuff and got him fully outfitted in epics, he's my new main healer.  The reason?  Just as said below.

When I take my healadin to raids (10-25 man) he basically stands around searching for the one member of the raid that is in trouble and tries to get a heal off before they go down.  Most of the time, the other healer gets it before me.  Most of the time, the massive HOTs that are being thrown around keep everyone topped off.  Yes, during the boss fights I come in handy, but only then.  I try to add some DPS, but that is seriously a joke compared to the others and typically makes me miss the fact that somebody is in trouble.  So, I just stand and wait.  That just isn't fun nor effective/efficient.

I've tried Ret.  It is ok if you like to always be at the middle or end of the DPS charts.  I've tried Prot, which is fine, but without getting massive gear upgrades you are blocked from the higher end raids due to crushability concerns.  Everything just feels 3rd rate compared to every other class.  I basically just PvP heal with my paladin now and that is rare.  I PvP not because he's uber either.  It is because I can and I hate wasting a spot completely.  Oh, he mines....so is there is that.

Would I like to see the class revamped?  Hell yes.

[Calantus]

Why do people roll healing classes if healing bores them? I recently got a paladin to 70 and specced holy because my priest sometimes goes shadow for PVE (which I dislike but whatever) and I cannot STAND not having a healer available to play when I want to PVP. If you've got a paladin and don't want to heal there's 2 other trees you can spec into, you don't need to turn holy into some dps hybrid. Changes could be made to make it more interesting, sure, but turning paladins into a melee class that heals when they hit is fucking retarded. Every single class has a dps spec, when they're not ALL dps specs, stick with them and leave the healer trees alone. I swear every time healers get mentioned F13's dps tards froth at the mouth and scream how dare they have to heal on their fucking healing hybrid class.

[slog]

Why do people roll healing classes if healing bores them? I recently got a paladin to 70 and specced holy because my priest sometimes goes shadow for PVE (which I dislike but whatever) and I cannot STAND not having a healer available to play when I want to PVP. If you've got a paladin and don't want to heal there's 2 other trees you can spec into, you don't need to turn holy into some dps hybrid. Changes could be made to make it more interesting, sure, but turning paladins into a melee class that heals when they hit is fucking retarded. Every single class has a dps spec, when they're not ALL dps specs, stick with them and leave the healer trees alone. I swear every time healers get mentioned F13's dps tards froth at the mouth and scream how dare they have to heal on their fucking healing hybrid class.

Not sure what your exact point was in that mini wall of text, but I think a lot of people roll healers without realizing how boring healing trash is.    Healing is only fun when something goes wrong...

I play a priest, Holy for Raids, Disc for PvP.  1605 2v2 rating :)

[Numtini]

The dual spec thing in EQ2 works nicely--you run to your house and use a mirror. I would guess the equivilent in WOW would be to see a trainer. There are no limits or cost, you can sit in your house and bounce back and forth at will--the limitation is heading home to a city. Unfortunately, EQ2 made it an end game only sort of thing and the time you really need to switch back and forth in both EQ2 and WOW is when you're lower and need that dps build for solo quest grinding. I also suspect it would make lower end instancing a lot more pleasant if they weren't a complete chaos of shadow healers being wailed on while healing fury spec'd tanks who can't hold aggro.

There's a particular problem with a tank/healer hybrid and that's that when you most need an "off healer" is usually when you need an off tank. Off healing is a lot more acceptable with a DPS/heal hybrid. You can't just stop tanking the adds to heal. It has to be integrated into the tanking aspects and it's hard to do that without making it either worthless or overpowered.

And I can understand people who have shaman or druids and get stuck with healing when they wanted to do something else particularly when the specs change and make other things unviable, but if you roll a priest and don't want to heal, I just don't get it.

[WindupAtheist]

The basic problem is that everyone needs a healer, but nobody wants to do it because it's fucking boring.  I'll cast my crappy ret heals if the shit hits the fan and it's neccessary, but spec for that shit?  GTFO, I'll go do AV and dailies forever if no groups want a ret.  Or, as it turned out, I'll just quit.

They should just delete all the heals, give us Zeal instead, quintuple the number of monsters, and rename the whole fucking thing World of Diablocraft.   

[lamaros]

Most of WoW is tuned so you can heal as a dps spec and tank as a dps spec while leveling. The dungeons are pretty easy. The two spec thing  is mostly a soloing thing or raiding/pvp switch.

I like healing from time to time, though as I said before, it's much more fun on a priest; Pally healing is the pits. However, it is bloody easy, so I find it relaxing to heal on it form time to time too.

[Calantus]

Why do people roll healing classes if healing bores them? I recently got a paladin to 70 and specced holy because my priest sometimes goes shadow for PVE (which I dislike but whatever) and I cannot STAND not having a healer available to play when I want to PVP. If you've got a paladin and don't want to heal there's 2 other trees you can spec into, you don't need to turn holy into some dps hybrid. Changes could be made to make it more interesting, sure, but turning paladins into a melee class that heals when they hit is fucking retarded. Every single class has a dps spec, when they're not ALL dps specs, stick with them and leave the healer trees alone. I swear every time healers get mentioned F13's dps tards froth at the mouth and scream how dare they have to heal on their fucking healing hybrid class.

Not sure what your exact point was in that mini wall of text, but I think a lot of people roll healers without realizing how boring healing trash is.    Healing is only fun when something goes wrong...

I play a priest, Holy for Raids, Disc for PvP.  1605 2v2 rating :)

The point is if you don't like healing you don't have to, so there's no need for people to bitch about their class having a healing spec. Blizzard gave dps specs to every class because so many people cry when they can't dps. People who roll paladins can heal, dps, or tank. Whatever you want to do you can do it. Turning the holy tree into a melee healing hybrid destroys the pure healer for those who enjoy it. It would mean my paladin is just worthless trash to me because the only reason I rolled one was to heal on it. Frankly I get annoyed when people suggest it because I do like pure healing, but there's a general movement about to see it go the way of the dodo. I'm also still annoyed WAR wants to do away with sitting at the back and healing as if that was such a terrible thing to do.

I have a rogue, warrior, and warlock that I can play (yes, all 3 of the dps classes that have been/are FoTM since TBC) but I always go back to my priest and now paladin because damage just doesn't do it for me.

[Tebonas]

To each his own. I like healing, making damage does nothing for me. I'm more about the support role, but healing is a close second.

[Numtini]

My two favorite things to do are heal or tank. Tanking tends to require more time for gearing up than I have for games though.

[Chimpy]

No one knows what a Moonkin or Ret Paladin is supposed to do other then 'waste' a slot better used by another class.

Actually, those two specs are huge DPS boosts to your raid's overall DPS. I don't think you will find a single guild that is past Brutallus that doesn't at the least have a ret pally in every raid, even if it is for lasting judgement alone.

Moonkin are also a big raid buff increase.

Both suffer from having to wear odd off-set gear, usually cloth stuff for balance druids and leather/mail for rettys. But both are VERY viable in a endgame raid setting, and I would bring either to a 5 man or kara anytime for DPS.

The biggest problems with any spec is people who have vanilla-WoW preconcieved biases about what is and is not viable. At the moment, there is not a single spec for any class that is not viable anymore. Sure some of the pure DPS classes have trees that kinda suck in comparison to the optimal, but none of them lose the basic class utility or the ability to do decent DPS.

[Dren]

Why do people roll healing classes if healing bores them?

Other stuff...

I'm not sure if you were addressing me or not, but I plainly stated that I rolled a priest to heal.  I like to heal.  I enjoy it.  Paladin healing is subpar compared to all other healers.  That is the point.  

I'll be just fine without any change to paladins.  The information we got that started this thread is that they are working on them, so what is the point of telling everyone to stop complaining/predicting?

[Musashi]

...it would mean that we could break down some of the rigidity of class/spec balance in raiding.

Ya, I think it would allow for the possibility of, oh I don't know, a tank class that doesn't eat balls in PvP.

/crosses fingers

[Calantus]

I'm not sure if you were addressing me or not, but I plainly stated that I rolled a priest to heal.  I like to heal.  I enjoy it.  Paladin healing is subpar compared to all other healers.  That is the point.  

I'll be just fine without any change to paladins.  The information we got that started this thread is that they are working on them, so what is the point of telling everyone to stop complaining/predicting?

It was more of a reply to comments like those of Fordel that call for paladins to heal through damage, not the general "paladin healing specifically is boring" comments you made.

[Fordel]

This is the base of my point:

People who roll paladins can heal, dps, or tank. Whatever you want to do you can do it. Turning the holy tree into a melee healing hybrid destroys the pure healer for those who enjoy it. It would mean my paladin is just worthless trash to me because the only reason I rolled one was to heal on it.

The number of people who rolled a Paladin to be a lolight Bot is extremely small, the number of people who enjoy that play style is even smaller. The only reason it was even tolerated for so long, was because it was "required". It was very efficient and had good throughput and the other two lines were donkey balls. Now with spirit regen changes, gear scaling and a change of focus in raid damage. The bulk of the Holy tree has been replaced by Lifebloom.


The Class at its base is a melee class. Almost all of it's abilities revolve around melee range. All of it's interactivity EXCEPT for the two casted heals work around melee range. The fact a melee hybrid somehow got put in the back, spamming 1-2 spells for hours on end is a bizarre accident of circumstance, completely counter to the assumed and desired role of the class, by the majority of those who made one.


It isn't about lol crit froth dps, it's about having a fun, interactive and desired role.
The current Holy Paladin play style provides none of the above.

[K9]

This is why pushing you out of healbotting and into some off-healing role would probably be a popular move. And off-heals don't have to be direct. You could consider LoTP and VE examples of ways of healing without having to spam a heal button.

[Fordel]

I'm saying go further with Holy, keep it as a umm 'On-Heal' spec, but make that healing come through melee. The Holy Paladins job on the larger raids would be to keep the melee DPS group alive, by being with the melee dps, beating on the mobs. Instead of Chain heal, you have Holy Cleave 

[Simond]

The biggest problems with any spec is people who have vanilla-WoW preconcieved biases about what is and is not viable. At the moment, there is not a single spec for any class that is not viable anymore. Sure some of the pure DPS classes have trees that kinda suck in comparison to the optimal, but none of them lose the basic class utility or the ability to do decent DPS.

For example, I'd say the weakest paladin spec right now is holy - prot is solid (edging slowly towards overpowered) and ret stopped being a comedy spec a while back whereas holy-spec for a paladin roughly means adequate single-target heals, and not much else.

Good luck convincing the general WoW population of this, though. 

[Fordel]

The General WoW population is well aware that Holy Paladins are weak. They have fancy charts from the Arena Tournaments and the World First Raid lineups to show them that. 


More importantly, everyone agrees they are boring and stupid to play. It's just a shitty play style. It's ineffective AND frustrating!