Who'll dish the dirt on my old classes?

[Merusk]

I understand his point, I think, so I'll try to explain.

I've had a few friends who were way behind the curve since TBC.  They got to 70 as others were starting to raid Kara, got to Kara as others were in Gruul/ Mag, etc.  In short, they were always just ONE step behind the curve.  They were fustrated, because it was impossible to find groups for the place THEY were at.

 Sure, they could get alts to help them out once in a while, but it was an exercise in futility most times, because people would drop group for raids or to do stuff with their mains.

The folks who are TWO steps behind were even more frustrated, and quit for a while or rerolled on a different server.  They couldn't get regular instance runs even in their guilds.  The response was always, "Oh, if it's not heroic I'm not interested."  Even to pleas of "Dude, if you help me out on a few runs I'll have the faction to be able to fucking DO a heroic. I don't right now."  "No thx."

That was three/ four months ago.  Progression forward has continued and I can't imagine even trying to do shit if you're still in blues & greens of any sort.  You'll get booted from the group as they pickup someone "willing to put in the work".  Even alt runs in Kara were done only for badges on my old server because it was so farmed out.  Taking just ONE guy along who was in blues & greens created a bitch fest of epic proportions from a few folks in a mixed raid of T5+ guilds.  "Aw this will take forerver now!"  Wtf, the place was still steamrolled in 3 1/2 hours because this shit was designed to be encountered in blues & greens

As a result of lack of playtime, you can't do Heroics, you'll be seen as "retardedly undergeared" or asked "did you buy that toon" and generally you'll be left out of doing anything.   Unless you like solo farming OR have a good guild of people willing to run around with you to gear you out, or who are at the same level of gear, you're better off not playing until the x-pac "fixes" things and gives another mini-reset.

[Tale]

How is a lack of playtime in TBC worse than rerolling?

Catching up in TBC is unfun. If you reroll, you have fun.

[Dren]

How is a lack of playtime in TBC worse than rerolling?

Catching up in TBC is unfun. If you reroll, you have fun.

This is COMPLETELY dependent on the guild you are in or your acceptance of using PUGs.  A new player just trying to get their main caught up in gear in our guild would be able to do so in 3-4 weeks with our Karazhan runs alone.  We run them now 2-3 times a week.  Main Lightening run, 2nd alt fast run, 3rd alt scrap and claw run.  My 3 top characters are now nearly 100% outfitted from Kara and have a smattering of Gruul's/Mags (using a alliance we have with 2 different groups.)

If you reroll, you are going to be just that much further behind when you hit TBC content.  If you want WotLK to save the day, but got left behind by TBC...rinse and repeat.

If you can't handle catching up now, forget it.  My suggestion:  Find a guild that fits you better.

[Rasix]

That was three/ four months ago.  Progression forward has continued and I can't imagine even trying to do shit if you're still in blues & greens of any sort.  You'll get booted from the group as they pickup someone "willing to put in the work".  Even alt runs in Kara were done only for badges on my old server because it was so farmed out.  Taking just ONE guy along who was in blues & greens created a bitch fest of epic proportions from a few folks in a mixed raid of T5+ guilds.  "Aw this will take forerver now!"  Wtf, the place was still steamrolled in 3 1/2 hours because this shit was designed to be encountered in blues & greens

As a result of lack of playtime, you can't do Heroics, you'll be seen as "retardedly undergeared" or asked "did you buy that toon" and generally you'll be left out of doing anything.   Unless you like solo farming OR have a good guild of people willing to run around with you to gear you out, or who are at the same level of gear, you're better off not playing until the x-pac "fixes" things and gives another mini-reset.

I'm in an extremely casual guild and even this bullshit is starting to play out.  An officer just recently posted a nice "Officers will no longer coordinate Kara runs effective July 1.  Don't ask about ZA runs, we won't set those up EVER."   I posted a well thought out reply saying why this may not be the best idea and am currently getting my asshole torn apart by every single officer in the guild.  Pretty sure I just killed any hope of landing spots in heroics, ZA, and Kara runs from folks that routinely brought me along to dps or heal.  OHH WELL.  I

Our guild has a core of friends that are the best geared.  Head to toe in ZA gear, hundreds of badges in the bank, and they form Kara/ZA runs outside of the guild framework.  Most are officers.  Every post in response to mine is either telling me flat out I'm full of shit, and/or that they're just tired of hand holding poorly equipped people through Kara.  That they're tired of poorly equpped prepared people coming to the 25 man stuff.  We've had to get outside help on every 25 man run that I've seen, but they're too blind to see that this doesn't have to happen if they keep bringing people up through Kara and maybe occasionally bring some people along for ZA (how the fuck are you going to learn if you get no practical experience?).   Instead we poach disaffected 25 man raiders off other guilds or seek to shanghai small ZA running guilds.  Thus leaving the more poorly equipped people on the standby list for 25 man crap. 

It was amazing to see it come to this on a guild that's so casual it's just NOW downing a single boss in SSC and one shotting Mags.  Officers have their loot.  People once they're in full Kara gear are no longer going.  People are completely forgetting where they were a few months ago.  Elitism creeping into a guild that's so far behind the ball they should be clinging to some form of humility. 75% of our top 20 DKP (yah, we went to fucking DKP) didn't even show up for Kara this week. 

Of course, I think the worst of my sins was calling out the cliquish core and calling them a "power group".  I am really surprised I'm not shopping for a new guild right now as this has drawn a lot of ad hominem attacks and the officers that I would expect this from haven't even posted yet.

Note: My needs from Kara are so minimal such that I'll likely get the badge gear before I see the drops I want.

[Merusk]

What you just described happened to my old guild - albeit they were further progressed.  I, however, was IN the upper 2% of the DKP (#5 for the guild) and and officer and called it bullshit of the highest order.

Instead of listening to me, or even talking to me, the guild leader absorbed a bunch of even MORE elitist assholes (who routinely bragged "We're #15 on the server according to WoWJutsu! Listen to us we're uber!) who dumped their old guild because they couldn't get a 25-man run together ONE WEEK.

 After watching them muscle out my friends for raid slots and completely want to change everything from the guild website to the way DKP was done - and the GL capitulating on it all - I said fuck it and quit. I rerolled Horde with my old EQ friends and I'm much happier now.  10-mans in the x-pac so I don't have to deal with more than 30 people in a guild? Count me the fuck in. 

[Kitsune]

That happened in my old guild, Rasix.  It went from 'yay, casual!' to 'OMG noobs are HOLDING US BACK!'.  Some of the guild started regular raiding, and next thing you know the raiding half starts declining to invite lower-geared people to their raids.  It went from 'Hey, let's all fuck around in MC one day' to 'MUST DROP BOSSES!!!  You haven't run BWL twenty times?  GET ON THE FUCKING WAITING LIST!'  And then everything disintegrated into a pile of failure and nerd rage.

I jumped ship when that happened.  Big raids were never fun for me to start with, so it wasn't worth wading through a nerd battlefield to be in a guild with people who were too busy either raiding or bitching to ever actually play with.  I let my subscription expire, and haven't been back since.

[Nebu]

It went from 'Hey, let's all fuck around in MC one day' to 'MUST DROP BOSSES!!!  You haven't run BWL twenty times?  GET ON THE FUCKING WAITING LIST!'  And then everything disintegrated into a pile of failure and nerd rage.

I think that MMO's are doomed to follow this trend.  Too many players have been hardwired to believe that getting the best loot requires the most pain (i.e. 25+ man raids).  I won't bother with anything taking more than 5 people to complete until they start making it more about fun and less about cat herding.

[Rasix]

The other day I said in guild chat, "Fuck, I'm starting to feel pretty terrible. Any DPS want to do Mags?"  (I was starting to feel like I was coming down with something, and it's fucking Mags.)  I immediately got a tell from an officer "Don't offer spots to people who aren't ready for this encounter."  I mean hell, sorry to burden the officers with having to filter a possible 3-5 tells and having to ask about someone's AP or spell damage and if they have the ability to do an easy encounter. 

I'm "this" close to just tell them that if they're not willing to make the effort for the guild, that the guild isn't worth my time.  They always know I'm willing to help and I jump into do encounters that I frankly don't like doing (25 man stuff, certain heroics) because they benefit others.  But apparently burdening officers and raid leaders with raids that they don't need gear from and exposing themselves to grouping with people that have more blues than purples, is just too much to ask.

Sucks, because I really, really like the guild. It was pretty much the perfect situation for me until they pulled into the top 10 (through a fucking player transfer) on the server rankings.  And it serioulsy mattered to people.  Even if it's legit, our server is so podunk that only one horde guild has even cleared BT and only 2 have even entered it.

Edit. So,  the tl;dr of all of this tangental crap is: my guild is being really dumb by focusing on advancement this late in the game instead of perhaps doing the more reasonable thing of trying to carry forward a sustainable guild culture into the next expansion.

[Kitsune]

I had a great time with 5-mans, and I'm fine with 10-mans, and applaud them for making all of the raids work with 10-man groups in the next expansion.  I'm not fine with 25-mans, and 40-mans are right out.  All I want to do is run into a cool place, murder cool things for their cool belongings, and leave.  I don't want to spend an hour waiting for tons of people to gather and organize, I don't want a screen full of health bars, I don't want the contributions of individual players to be insignificant to the success of the whole.  I don't care about getting the super-ooper-duperist gear; as long as the gear I do get is good and useful.  I want it to be fun, and I don't want to have to put up with crap in the process of trying to have that fun.

[slog]

That was three/ four months ago.  Progression forward has continued and I can't imagine even trying to do shit if you're still in blues & greens of any sort.  You'll get booted from the group as they pickup someone "willing to put in the work".  Even alt runs in Kara were done only for badges on my old server because it was so farmed out.  Taking just ONE guy along who was in blues & greens created a bitch fest of epic proportions from a few folks in a mixed raid of T5+ guilds.  "Aw this will take forerver now!"  Wtf, the place was still steamrolled in 3 1/2 hours because this shit was designed to be encountered in blues & greens

As a result of lack of playtime, you can't do Heroics, you'll be seen as "retardedly undergeared" or asked "did you buy that toon" and generally you'll be left out of doing anything.   Unless you like solo farming OR have a good guild of people willing to run around with you to gear you out, or who are at the same level of gear, you're better off not playing until the x-pac "fixes" things and gives another mini-reset.

I'm in an extremely casual guild and even this bullshit is starting to play out.  An officer just recently posted a nice "Officers will no longer coordinate Kara runs effective July 1.  Don't ask about ZA runs, we won't set those up EVER."   I posted a well thought out reply saying why this may not be the best idea and am currently getting my asshole torn apart by every single officer in the guild.  Pretty sure I just killed any hope of landing spots in heroics, ZA, and Kara runs from folks that routinely brought me along to dps or heal.  OHH WELL.  I

Our guild has a core of friends that are the best geared.  Head to toe in ZA gear, hundreds of badges in the bank, and they form Kara/ZA runs outside of the guild framework.  Most are officers.  Every post in response to mine is either telling me flat out I'm full of shit, and/or that they're just tired of hand holding poorly equipped people through Kara.  That they're tired of poorly equpped prepared people coming to the 25 man stuff.  We've had to get outside help on every 25 man run that I've seen, but they're too blind to see that this doesn't have to happen if they keep bringing people up through Kara and maybe occasionally bring some people along for ZA (how the fuck are you going to learn if you get no practical experience?).   Instead we poach disaffected 25 man raiders off other guilds or seek to shanghai small ZA running guilds.  Thus leaving the more poorly equipped people on the standby list for 25 man crap. 

It was amazing to see it come to this on a guild that's so casual it's just NOW downing a single boss in SSC and one shotting Mags.  Officers have their loot.  People once they're in full Kara gear are no longer going.  People are completely forgetting where they were a few months ago.  Elitism creeping into a guild that's so far behind the ball they should be clinging to some form of humility. 75% of our top 20 DKP (yah, we went to fucking DKP) didn't even show up for Kara this week. 

Of course, I think the worst of my sins was calling out the cliquish core and calling them a "power group".  I am really surprised I'm not shopping for a new guild right now as this has drawn a lot of ad hominem attacks and the officers that I would expect this from haven't even posted yet.

Note: My needs from Kara are so minimal such that I'll likely get the badge gear before I see the drops I want.

I officers are bored.  Wow raiding is all about progression.   Kara is fun the first 5 times, ok the next 3 times, DULL AS FUCK the next 50 times.  It also takes a lot of item.

In the meantime, the guild is probably slowing down/stuck in their progression because of gear issues.  So it's either quit or find another way to progress. 

[Driakos]

Edit. So,  the tl;dr of all of this tangental crap is: my guild is being really dumb by focusing on advancement this late in the game instead of perhaps doing the more reasonable thing of trying to carry forward a sustainable guild culture into the next expansion.

The guild I'm in on Hellscream started our advancement push pretty late.  We've been able to stay casual and make progress into the 25-man stuff.  We're 4/6 in SSC, 2 bosses down in TK, Mag, Gruul, 5/6 in ZA, etc.  I don't see the advancement push this late in BC's lifespan as a bad thing.  We're doing it just because it is something to do.  Content we have not seen.  We still run Kara Pinata's for alts, new apps.  Not as many as we could, but it's there.

What should a guild be doing now?

[Kitsune]

Getting members to 70, capping their tradeskills, getting them flying mounts and sufficiently-decent gear to be ready on the starting line when WotLK arrives.

[Lantyssa]

I miss my Draenei, but thank you for curing my desire to return.  When all the casuals turn into lootwhore raiders, I can be assured the game is no longer for me.

[Driakos]

We do concerted daily-quest runs.  Groups of us ravage the Sunwell island.  We figure everyone should have about 15,000 gold when the expansion hits, ideally.  Not that it will happen, but that's what we tell folks to aim for.

That aside, I'd be so bored with WoW right now, if we weren't trying new stuff.  We don't expect to conquer all of the 25man content.  It's just something to do.

I don't think we have any kind of tradeskilling help.  Something to think about.

[Chimpy]

The gear gap is a pain in the ass, especially now with the level of quality of badge loot (and the sheer asston of stuff you have to do to get said badges). I re-subbed in august, my old guild that I raided with was just finishing SSC/TK when I started grinding to 70. When I was at 70 and bored with pugging heroics and had most everything out of kara, they were no longer even doing SSC or TK at all as they were progressing in BT and Hyjal (only 2 Kael'thas kills after they killed Archimonde for the first time in October, both of which I snuck in for) and even though they knew me and my skill leve and I was willing to raid I was stuck twiddling my thumbs as Hyjal and BT attunment were the block.

Eventually I got keyed when they had a couple of the old guild officers reroll priest/warrior and they were desperate for people so I went along then. Guild eventually stagnated 2 weeks ago because the "elitists" in the guild (who were the biggest loot whores too, go figure) did not want to raid anything older than Hyjal (and even that was like pulling teeth) to get the roster filled out for attrition before 2.4. Going from 2 nights a week to 5 for progression, yet only having the same 30 people, 10 of which were sketchy as hell on a 2 night schedule was a brilliant idea.

[lamaros]

I stopped playing before BT was in the game but I'm pretty sure/know I could get myself into a BT guild. I think anyone could if they were willing to grind badges and do 10mans every week for a while. The real gear gap is going to be if you want to do Sunwell. I don't want to do any sleepwalking through BT or so for ages just to get into Sunwell, so I'm not doing it. But if you're decent and have even a few connections to a raiding guild I see no reason why you couldn't be at least doing BT with a chance at Sunwell before WotLK (assuming an Oct/Nov release).

I know a Shaman that just hit 70 last week who was in BT last night.

I'm having fun with a new Pally I rolled (level 24) just running around doing some instances and quests, collecting nice looking loot and such. I run the dailies on my Warlock every now and then to get some gold saved up for my DK. If you do just Sunwell Isle every day you can pocket ~1k gold a week (if you sell all your drops).

[Kitsune]

If you do just Sunwell Isle every day you can pocket ~1k gold a week (if you sell all your drops).

Okay, somebody needs to explain this to me.  I worked my ass off to 60 and only wound up with 1k in the bank, without having bought an epic mount.  I was working the AH with auctioneer, selling alchemy goods, refraining from buying stuff that I could farm myself, and I didn't wind up with squat for cash.  But since BC came out I keep hearing people talking about how they're pulling in hundreds of gold all over the place, and my brain is hurt with trying to conceive of how that can happen without totally fucking over the server economies with rampant inflation.

[lamaros]

Not everyone grinds gold just because they can, if they don't need it they don't grind.

And there is inflation. Blizzard doesn't care so much about inflation.

[Paelos]

I'm raid-leading a group of BT people now, and we're 5/9 done as of today. It's hard as hell, and it's a struggle every week to keep people interested in the run with some focus on possible kills. You have to avoid the elitist dicks who want to make this into a Nazi run, and balance that with the whiney assholes who want to show up in blues for a T6 run because they are entitled to a fair share. There are shitty leaders, there are good leaders, and there are great leaders. If you don't have a great leader, your guild will fall victim to the greed that this game continually pushes. It's not going to get better. It's not going to be saved by expansions. If you don't like it now, you'll hate the later patches.

[lamaros]

10 mans will make it better for many of those things. Though, if you do 25s and 10s then you'll just have new issues to deal with.

[Ragnoros]

Even if it's legit, our server is so podunk that only one horde guild has even cleared BT and only 2 have even entered it.

LOL You think your server is bad? I am on Farstriders (not my idea) horde side, in the current #1 and only raiding guild, we just dropped vashj--a server first--about a week ago. The former #1 guild spent two weeks wiping on gorfiend and broke up about a week ago after all the QQ. They never droped Vashj or Kea'l. Why they skiped to BT I have no idea.

[Fabricated]

I'm raid-leading a group of BT people now, and we're 5/9 done as of today. It's hard as hell, and it's a struggle every week to keep people interested in the run with some focus on possible kills. You have to avoid the elitist dicks who want to make this into a Nazi run, and balance that with the whiney assholes who want to show up in blues for a T6 run because they are entitled to a fair share. There are shitty leaders, there are good leaders, and there are great leaders. If you don't have a great leader, your guild will fall victim to the greed that this game continually pushes. It's not going to get better. It's not going to be saved by expansions. If you don't like it now, you'll hate the later patches.

I'm not even bothering with signing up for Hyjal/BT until my guild has got ZA on farm since I'm hoping that'll give me the skill/gear I need not to get really fucking frustrated with BT/MH. I'd like to see at least part of those two before the expansion. We're doing good so far. Bear, Eagle, Lynx on sleepwalk and the Dragonhawk is a nailbiter or sleepwalk depending on if our new pally tank is there or not. Fuck that fight btw.

The Hex Lord has that "holy fuck this is impossible" feeling we got from the Dragonhawk right now. Hopefully he'll go down this week or the next.

Edit: Every time I look at the Reliquary of Souls fight strats I feel more and more sorry for you. Holy shit is that a "no fuckups allowed" fight unless I'm missing something that makes it easy, with a DPS check right at the end that encourages consumable slamming.

[Calantus]

If you want into a BT guild and don't care about class, roll a shaman. Every guild everywhere is recruiting some flavour of shaman because they're being stacked to stupid proportions. There are a number of BT and even sunwell guilds who will take a fresh 70 shaman played by someone competant and gear them up for their purpose, they're that desperate. Shadow priest to a lesser extent too.

[lesion]

My guild has no raiding feral druids which makes me a sad panda. They're great tanks and improve melee a fair bit.

Also, shaman are whorebags.

[Lightstalker]

150g from Shattered Sun Dailies in about 70 minutes (per character per day).  Some classes can even use the rep for raid-worthy items.  I stopped playing the AH since I've got 3 70s and there is less hassle from the dailies (I can spend my time doing something rather than playing spreadsheets while staring at the AH wall).

Why skip T5 for T6?  If you've been killing ZA for any length of time the combination of Badge Loot and ZA drops means most everything below T6 is a sidegrade at best (exceptions for a few class/spec combinations).  That leaves Kael and Vashj as the only SSC and TK bosses worth killing.  Both of those bosses are difficult fights, much harder than the first 3 in BT or MH.  We killed Lurker and Hydross for a few weeks (with many wipes), realized SSC sucked, and then cleared the first three in MH in three successive weeks.  Several of the MH bosses are easier than their trash - meaning the boss comes down to 8 people doing the right thing and everyone else being ablative while the trash waves require everyone to help out by chewing through the trash fast enough to keep up.

My three raiding characters are SPriest, Resto Shaman, and Rogue.  SPriest, especially, is kind to re-rolls as a ding-grats 70 SPriest can put together gear to support 1000dps without ever setting foot in an instance - as a bonus people will go out of their way to make sure there are 1 or 2 in the raid.  Shaman is just really useful and can stack to 20% of a raid without really hurting it.  They are also pretty easy to gear out but it will take some rep grinding, tradeskills, and drops before you are pulling your weight in a 25 man raid.

[Merusk]

If you do just Sunwell Isle every day you can pocket ~1k gold a week (if you sell all your drops).

Okay, somebody needs to explain this to me.  I worked my ass off to 60 and only wound up with 1k in the bank, without having bought an epic mount.  I was working the AH with auctioneer, selling alchemy goods, refraining from buying stuff that I could farm myself, and I didn't wind up with squat for cash.  But since BC came out I keep hearing people talking about how they're pulling in hundreds of gold all over the place, and my brain is hurt with trying to conceive of how that can happen without totally fucking over the server economies with rampant inflation.

Light just mentioned part of it, the sunwell daily quests.  Each quest is fairly easy to complete (a cakewalk if you're a DPS class) and is fairly quick if you group up to do the kill quests, or are on a low-pop server. (Alleria was always a struggle to find mobs unless you did them n the early AM)  The easy ones are all on the island, and take about 45min to an hour but there are only 9 of them there.  The rest are scattered around Outlands, so you can do the Skyguard/ Netherwing dailies at the same time and complete all 25 of your dailies in a few hours.

Since each quest pays 7-11g (18g if you have access to NWL) you're getting about 225g a day before you sell your grays and de/AH the greens (Of which there are a ton).  As with any cash-gathering activity DO NOT IGNORE THE GRAY ITEMS.  I make an additional 5-12g easily just dropping off gray crap.   repeat this daily and you're getting at least 1.5k a week.

Yes, inflation is there.  Trying to reroll as a new hordie I can't afford shit on the AH.   On the other hand I'm only level 59 and I have 630g because of the cloth/ crafting mats I've sold on the AH as I've leveled.

[Nevermore]

I miss my Draenei, but thank you for curing my desire to return.  When all the casuals turn into lootwhore raiders, I can be assured the game is no longer for me.

Ditto (except I quit long before BC).  This thread includes pretty much *everything* I hate about WoW.  From now on whenever I think back on the fun parts and start to get tempted to resub, I'll just pop back here and that feeling will be cured right quick.

[Chimpy]

Even if it's legit, our server is so podunk that only one horde guild has even cleared BT and only 2 have even entered it.

LOL You think your server is bad? I am on Farstriders (not my idea) horde side, in the current #1 and only raiding guild, we just dropped vashj--a server first--about a week ago. The former #1 guild spent two weeks wiping on gorfiend and broke up about a week ago after all the QQ. They never droped Vashj or Kea'l. Why they skiped to BT I have no idea.

Because no keying to get into the 6 loot pinatas that are Rage/Anetheron/Kaz'Rogal/Najentus/Supremus/Akama is so much more awesomesauce than actually having to gear up and figure out the 3 hard fights in SSC/TK in Leothras/Vashj/Kael.

Azgalor is a mild gear check, but doable in Z'A level gear pretty easily with good people, Gorefiend is the hardest fight to master in BT before Illidan simply because of how some people cannot manage the ghosts.

I'm not even bothering with signing up for Hyjal/BT until my guild has got ZA on farm since I'm hoping that'll give me the skill/gear I need not to get really fucking frustrated with BT/MH. I'd like to see at least part of those two before the expansion. We're doing good so far. Bear, Eagle, Lynx on sleepwalk and the Dragonhawk is a nailbiter or sleepwalk depending on if our new pally tank is there or not. Fuck that fight btw.

The Hex Lord has that "holy fuck this is impossible" feeling we got from the Dragonhawk right now. Hopefully he'll go down this week or the next.

Edit: Every time I look at the Reliquary of Souls fight strats I feel more and more sorry for you. Holy shit is that a "no fuckups allowed" fight unless I'm missing something that makes it easy, with a DPS check right at the end that encourages consumable slamming.

RoS is not as much a no fuckups allowed at all fight as a "bring enough tanks and rogues to get through phase 1" and "rogues don't you fucking mess up the kick rotation on phase2" and "don't pull aggro on phase3" fight.

Tip for Malacrass if you have not been, have everyone get a little bit of shadow resist, just enough to get to 150 or so with the priest buff makes a huge difference. I used the jewelcrafting necklace and an old cloak with a cheap 10SR enchant on it back when I actually did ZA. Also, the more reliable CC (mages/locks/priests) you have, the easier the fight is because you don't have to kill as many of his friends.

[Fabricated]

I'm not even bothering with signing up for Hyjal/BT until my guild has got ZA on farm since I'm hoping that'll give me the skill/gear I need not to get really fucking frustrated with BT/MH. I'd like to see at least part of those two before the expansion. We're doing good so far. Bear, Eagle, Lynx on sleepwalk and the Dragonhawk is a nailbiter or sleepwalk depending on if our new pally tank is there or not. Fuck that fight btw.

The Hex Lord has that "holy fuck this is impossible" feeling we got from the Dragonhawk right now. Hopefully he'll go down this week or the next.

Edit: Every time I look at the Reliquary of Souls fight strats I feel more and more sorry for you. Holy shit is that a "no fuckups allowed" fight unless I'm missing something that makes it easy, with a DPS check right at the end that encourages consumable slamming.

RoS is not as much a no fuckups allowed at all fight as a "bring enough tanks and rogues to get through phase 1" and "rogues don't you fucking mess up the kick rotation on phase2" and "don't pull aggro on phase3" fight.

Tip for Malacrass if you have not been, have everyone get a little bit of shadow resist, just enough to get to 150 or so with the priest buff makes a huge difference. I used the jewelcrafting necklace and an old cloak with a cheap 10SR enchant on it back when I actually did ZA. Also, the more reliable CC (mages/locks/priests) you have, the easier the fight is because you don't have to kill as many of his friends.

That reliance on kick rotations and reflecting deaden makes it look painful to me since I have an insanely itchy trigger finger on interrupts. I'm interested in getting 25-man experience with SSC/Eye but I'm not sure I can even get a shot at getting into the pretty well established groups for those, especially since I'm mostly just interested in SEEING the shit a handful of times before the expansion instead of collecting loot.

[Selby]

I'm interested in getting 25-man experience with SSC/Eye but I'm not sure I can even get a shot at getting into the pretty well established groups for those, especially since I'm mostly just interested in SEEING the shit a handful of times before the expansion instead of collecting loot.

We had the same problem before TBC came out.  Everyone in the guild was relatively new to the game, and we wanted to see the 40 man raid content before TBC came out so we could at least have a reason to do it.  Most of the guild drama described above happened (officers get bored, getting to go with another guild that would DE a drop you could use because you weren't "a regular" in their guild despite no one else needing it in the raid, drama, etc).  I've pretty much sworn off guilds because of this =P

[lesion]

That reliance on kick rotations and reflecting deaden makes it look painful to me since I have an insanely itchy trigger finger on interrupts.

The crushing, unworldly ire of 24 people after interrupting a Deaden or missing a Shock will either beat the failure out of rogues or consume their skin.

[Lietgardis]

That reliance on kick rotations and reflecting deaden makes it look painful to me since I have an insanely itchy trigger finger on interrupts.

The crushing, unworldly ire of 24 people after interrupting a Deaden or missing a Shock will either beat the failure out of rogues or consume their skin.

This problem has been solved.  (Of course, our rogues refuse to use it.)