Remember that other upcoming MMO? Last class in WAR revealed.

[Triforcer]

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/warhammeronline/news.html?sid=6191574&tag=newlyadded;title;1

My eagerness for this just growing.  AoC bored me after a week, it never felt like a WORLD, only like towns connected radially and disparately to instanced zones.  It was BG with neater melee combat.  WAR still sounds like it will be a world. 

[tazelbain]

There is a crafting vid as well.  MJ needs more practice talking on camera.

I think the market is getting resistant to the hype.  Notice how hype for AoC didn't ramp up until it's release was emminent.  WAR, I suspect, will be the same.  Even more so if WAR actually drops the whole NDA before the release unlike HGL or AoC.  But at this point its just wishful thinking.  And people are getting tired of being mislead by it.

[Hawkbit]

Seriously?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUR86bnKLaI&feature=related

Not a rickroll.

[Mrbloodworth]

Meh...

[AcidCat]

Sounds like an interesting class. But after playing AoC, Warhammer's old school autoattack combat is going to feel like a big step backwards.

[Montague]

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/warhammeronline/news.html?sid=6191574&tag=newlyadded;title;1

My eagerness for this just growing.  AoC bored me after a week, it never felt like a WORLD, only like towns connected radially and disparately to instanced zones.  It was BG with neater melee combat.  WAR still sounds like it will be a world. 

...

 

[Triforcer]

Oh, joy.  Leave me my illusions, sir. 

[Numtini]

You can (not) say that again.

[Mrbloodworth]

Sounds like an interesting class. But after playing AoC, Warhammer's old school autoattack combat is going to feel like a big step backwards.

I tried playing Wow again (my GF needed some help with something and my account still has a month), its so fucking slow...really slow in comparison. Movement, travel, combat...all a snails pace.

[Miasma]

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/warhammeronline/news.html?sid=6191574&tag=newlyadded;title;1

My eagerness for this just growing.  AoC bored me after a week, it never felt like a WORLD, only like towns connected radially and disparately to instanced zones.  It was BG with neater melee combat.  WAR still sounds like it will be a world. 

...

 

Yeah I don't quite get this Triforcer.  Do you think Warhammer won't have zones and instancing?  Because everything I've seen points to almost as much as AoC.

[Triforcer]

Well, I know certain things from certain sites that would be gauche to name aloud, even though we've all went to them.  But from publicly disclosed information, I have never gotten the impression that the exp zones were instanced, like in AoC.  I don't know why, but instanced XP zones just killed AoC immersion for me. 

[Mrbloodworth]

Well, I know certain things from certain sites that would be gauche to name aloud, even though we've all went to them.  But from publicly disclosed information, I have never gotten the impression that the exp zones were instanced, like in AoC.  I don't know why, but instanced XP zones just killed AoC immersion for me. 

I barely notice them.

[Kirth]

Sounds like an interesting class. But after playing AoC, Warhammer's old school autoattack combat is going to feel like a big step backwards.

at 51 I'm starting to have some reservations about the combat...

[Montague]

Well, I know certain things from certain sites that would be gauche to name aloud, even though we've all went to them.  But from publicly disclosed information, I have never gotten the impression that the exp zones were instanced, like in AoC.  I don't know why, but instanced XP zones just killed AoC immersion for me. 

Honestly I don't see how, technically, any game touting mass PVP with art more complex than ascii sprites can not have some sort of instancing. WoW doesn't have instancing per se but you drop a 40-man Horde raid in Stormwind or Ironforge and the entire continent goes into a death spiral, and that's with WoW's toonerville graphics. It doesn't look like the technology is really there yet.

[Mrbloodworth]

Well, I know certain things from certain sites that would be gauche to name aloud, even though we've all went to them.  But from publicly disclosed information, I have never gotten the impression that the exp zones were instanced, like in AoC.  I don't know why, but instanced XP zones just killed AoC immersion for me. 

Honestly I don't see how, technically, any game touting mass PVP with art more complex than ascii sprites can not have some sort of instancing. WoW doesn't have instancing per se but you drop a 40-man Horde raid in Stormwind or Ironforge and the entire continent goes into a death spiral, and that's with WoW's toonerville graphics. It doesn't look like the technology is really there yet.

Graphics are near irrelevant. Its update packets and frequency that really matter. AOC is more real time transfer, Wow is 100% cue-based with less intervals for update rate.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Sounds like an interesting class. But after playing AoC, Warhammer's old school autoattack combat is going to feel like a big step backwards.

I tried playing Wow again (my GF needed some help with something and my account still has a month), its so fucking slow...really slow in comparison. Movement, travel, combat...all a snails pace.

I'll agree combat feel faster but movement and travel? Ugh, maybe mounts are a godsend but running all the way to the fields of the dead on foot is not something I consider fast in any way. Add to that AOC zones are generally smaller than wow it makes the sin of long travel times worse.  The game has its high points but being fast isn't one of them.

Back on subject of WAR though, I really hope it has less instancing than aoc. Aoc just goes way overboard, not only is every outdoor zone, every small dungeon, every large dungeon, well everything instanced. It also gives multiple instances OF those instances so really you never have to play with more than ten other people. it kind of ruins the whole MM in mmo for me, like if i ask a guildy to help me with a quest in the fields and he gets there:

"i'm by the grave, i see the boss where are you?"

"I'm standing right by the grave"

"wait, which instance of the fields are you in?"

"I'm in three, you?"

"damn, I'm in two. Hold on"


This, right here really bothers me because it's not a world anymore it's just a series of instances all strung together via code.  I could even go on to say how all pvp in this game even on FFA servers would be considered sport pvp since there is no one static WORLD for it.  I play online games over consoles and pc fps because I feel like I'm a part of something bigger, in aoc I don't feel that. I really hope WAR avoids this.

[shiznitz]

Complaining about being in the wrong instance from your buddy is nitpicking as far as I am concerned as long as going to his or him coming to your is a click and load away. All you have to do is meet up once, group and the problem won't surface again. Instancing allows for faster developed and more tightly designed content which is what we all say we want.

[tazelbain]

Sounds like an interesting class. But after playing AoC, Warhammer's old school autoattack combat is going to feel like a big step backwards.

I tried playing Wow again (my GF needed some help with something and my account still has a month), its so fucking slow...really slow in comparison. Movement, travel, combat...all a snails pace.

I'll agree combat feel faster but movement and travel? Ugh, maybe mounts are a godsend but running all the way to the fields of the dead on foot is not something I consider fast in any way. Add to that AOC zones are generally smaller than wow it makes the sin of long travel times worse.  The game has its high points but being fast isn't one of them.

Back on subject of WAR though, I really hope it has less instancing than aoc. Aoc just goes way overboard, not only is every outdoor zone, every small dungeon, every large dungeon, well everything instanced. It also gives multiple instances OF those instances so really you never have to play with more than ten other people. it kind of ruins the whole MM in mmo for me, like if i ask a guildy to help me with a quest in the fields and he gets there:

"i'm by the grave, i see the boss where are you?"

"I'm standing right by the grave"

"wait, which instance of the fields are you in?"

"I'm in three, you?"

"damn, I'm in two. Hold on"


This, right here really bothers me because it's not a world anymore it's just a series of instances all strung together via code.  I could even go on to say how all pvp in this game even on FFA servers would be considered sport pvp since there is no one static WORLD for it.  I play online games over consoles and pc fps because I feel like I'm a part of something bigger, in aoc I don't feel that. I really hope WAR avoids this.

It makes me wonder why they even have multiple servers of the same type in the same region.

I think that WAR said only Scenerios and PvE-only dungeons would be instance.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Complaining about being in the wrong instance from your buddy is nitpicking as far as I am concerned as long as going to his or him coming to your is a click and load away. All you have to do is meet up once, group and the problem won't surface again. Instancing allows for faster developed and more tightly designed content which is what we all say we want.

Here's my point.........................................................here's you.

I'm well aware of what instancing everything does, I'm well aware it makes programming easier, it makes designing content easier. Single player console games or even small multiplayer games know this as well. Therein lies my point, aoc with it's massive instancing no longer becomes a massively multiplayer game. Yes your server may have the same 1k-2k people with character but how many of those will you see, how often? We might as well be playing on xbox live and that's not what I want in an online subscription game.

I'll give you an example (wow of course because my memory from eq1 days is too poor)

my server had one uber guild in the beginning, which disbanded due to drama(suprise) so no one hordeside was doing endgame content, meanwhile the alliance was progressing faster and faster. So one day my raid alliance finally killed onyxia, the first kill in months and for the players, it was a big deal. So we were going to turn in the head, we took our whole raid group and rand to the crossroads, mounted up and began a walking procession all the way to orgrimmar.  Well it turned out by the time we got there word had gotten out and a lot pf people were gathered, some for buffs, others out of curiousity. Entering those gates, seeing the main road left open, with either side lined with dozens of horde members(many i didnt even know) and marching in on my horse, was an experience I'll never forget.

Moments like that won't happen in such heavily instanced games.(don't tell me it's possible, of course it is but it wouldn't be the same)

[eldaec]

Personally I think anyone bitching about how immersive pve instances aren't needs to remember the alternative.

Spawn timers and reappearing bad guys.


Seriously, are you people suggesting that having to enter the same zone as your friends is less immersive than endless mobs popping into existence in front of you or having to queue up to kill to Ass-Goblin of the Eternal Monkey Nut?

[Kirth]

Personally I think anyone bitching about how immersive pve instances aren't needs to remember the alternative.

Spawn timers and reappearing bad guys.

This. If AoC wasn't as heavily instanced as it was places like the Field of Dead (level 40+ questing zone) would be jam packed with multiple groups surrounding spawn points each trying to tag one mob to get a quest update.

Of course it would make pvp servers more interesting.

Side note - I'm still more eager to play WAR then I am to see how much of the missing AoC content (Crafting, cities etc...) gets added.

[Wershlak]

Personally I think anyone bitching about how immersive pve instances aren't needs to remember the alternative.

Spawn timers and reappearing bad guys.


Seriously, are you people suggesting that having to enter the same zone as your friends is less immersive than endless mobs popping into existence in front of you or having to queue up to kill to Ass-Goblin of the Eternal Monkey Nut?

It may seem strange but I think it is more immersive. Note I didn't say it was fun.

[Mrbloodworth]

Sounds like an interesting class. But after playing AoC, Warhammer's old school autoattack combat is going to feel like a big step backwards.

I tried playing Wow again (my GF needed some help with something and my account still has a month), its so fucking slow...really slow in comparison. Movement, travel, combat...all a snails pace.

I'll agree combat feel faster but movement and travel? Ugh, maybe mounts are a godsend but running all the way to the fields of the dead on foot is not something I consider fast in any way. Add to that AOC zones are generally smaller than wow it makes the sin of long travel times worse.  The game has its high points but being fast isn't one of them.

Compare basic run speed of any Wow toon, to that of AoC. Its instantly noticeable, and i didn't even hit sprint in Aoc.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Personally I think anyone bitching about how immersive pve instances aren't needs to remember the alternative.

Spawn timers and reappearing bad guys.


Seriously, are you people suggesting that having to enter the same zone as your friends is less immersive than endless mobs popping into existence in front of you or having to queue up to kill to Ass-Goblin of the Eternal Monkey Nut?

 

To reply to a couple posts.

Run speed? I'll chalk that up to very subjective, to me it feels slow(and the zones 'feel' small)  but your mileage may vary.

As for the instancing I like to think there is a happy medium. First off there are alwayus going to be hordes of people figfhting for the same quest objective in the first month of release because everyone is doing those quests at the same time, the alternative to make sure it never happens is to instance everything and if you do that, are you really playing an MMO?

I like the idea of instancing dungeons and the whole concept of rare spawns for quests or to drop super rare loot to me is frankly stupid. There's a lot of wow hate and I do understand it but one of the things I think they did right was balancing the game world to feel immersive and fun while not making the quests feel like an uphill battle with the rest of the server.

I really think people are not understanding the concept of massively multiplayer here. If you want to play the whole game with 6 friends that's fine and you should be able to do so in some games, I'm not telling you how to have fun. What I am saying though is that is not massively multiplayer, you're not part of a world and for all intents and purposes everyone else outside your guild on the server doesn't exist.

let's say someone destroys the bat country keep(haha working seiges) now what have they really accomplished? they beat one guild, one one zone, in one instance of that zone. So guild pwnage now rules the purple lotus swamp.....3 of 15 how is that epic at all? how is that immersive?  How is world pvp meaningful if your guild lies in wait to ambush a gathering party from a rival guild when they can just, poof into another instance to be left alone.

It just boggles my mind really because online games are not that good. At least they're not as good as their single player counterparts when it comes to sheer gameplay. The whole point of them is that you play with other people for whatever reason, glory socialization it doesn't matter. Otherwise you're just killing 100 rats all by yourself and to me, I don't know if I'd call that fun.

[Mrbloodworth]

So, every MMO ever was not an MMO. Except Wow and Dark and Light and vanguard.

Even eq1 had instances/zones.

I really do not notice the instances in Aoc, really don't, and there is as many, if not more people in each zone/instance i go into as any other game. I am not seeing the issue here, unless you like walking to the bottom of a dungeon with nothing to attack, because the 5 groups before you already cleared it, and standing in line for the boss.

I do understand where people come from with this...it is it really an issue? Really?

[AcidCat]

I didn't care for it in City of Heroes and I don't care for it in AoC, but it is a fairly minor issue. I think the way WoW handles instancing is perfect.

[Nerf]

I'm calling bullshit on this whole thing lakov, have you even played AoC?

The instancing is hardly noticable, and you and a friend never had a "what instance are you in?" conversation, since you can never tell what instance you're actually in.

There aren't 15 of every instance, they are created and deleted on demand, the only time I can get by with not seeing many other people is if I purposely change into an instance that just opened.

[Montague]

I'm calling bullshit on this whole thing lakov, have you even played AoC?

The instancing is hardly noticable, and you and a friend never had a "what instance are you in?" conversation, since you can never tell what instance you're actually in.

There aren't 15 of every instance, they are created and deleted on demand, the only time I can get by with not seeing many other people is if I purposely change into an instance that just opened.

The  numbers per instance seem high. I'll have to check out Conall Valley Friday night to see how many players would be in that zone without instancing. My guess would be in the 200 range, which would bring a WoW server to its knees.

Also lets not forget that instancing subsides when the server population spreads out and stabilizes. You'd be hard pressed to find a second Atlas Park instance in COH for example, maybe on prime time on weekends. (Just a guess, havent played COH in ages)

[Tarami]

I think the instancing itself is fine and I'm usually really picky with the immersion aspects. I only wish they hadn't made every zone into an isolated pocket of content, but rather strung them together so you could atleast leave a town through a gate and end up on the other side of the same gate. Opposed to talking to an NPC and end up God knows where in relation to where I were.

[lamaros]

So Diablo is a MMO?

I havn't played AoC, but I have played Guild Wars. Guild Wars is not a MMO if you ask me, it's a co-operative online game. The closer AoC or any game gets to Guild Wars the less MMO it is.

That doesn't mean it's a better or worse game, but it does mean certain things.

Personally I think anyone bitching about how immersive pve instances aren't needs to remember the alternative.

Spawn timers and reappearing bad guys.

I have never had any significant problems with WoW in this regard. There have been fleeting moments, that's it. On the other hand I have had countless moments there the non instanced aspect of the WoW 'world' has made the game more fun for me.

Seriously, are you people suggesting that having to enter the same zone as your friends is less immersive than endless mobs popping into existence in front of you or having to queue up to kill to Ass-Goblin of the Eternal Monkey Nut?

Yes.

I'm calling bullshit on this whole thing lakov, have you even played AoC?

The instancing is hardly noticable, and you and a friend never had a "what instance are you in?" conversation, since you can never tell what instance you're actually in.

There aren't 15 of every instance, they are created and deleted on demand, the only time I can get by with not seeing many other people is if I purposely change into an instance that just opened.

If AoC world instancing only comes into effect when dealing with crippling situations, rather than being implemented for convenience only, then I doubt I'd have a problem with it. I would much prefer they push the number of people held in a zone as far as they possibly can up to that point, though.

I didn't care for it in City of Heroes and I don't care for it in AoC, but it is a fairly minor issue. I think the way WoW handles instancing is perfect.

It took WoW a while to get to the point they are at without issues, however, and this is important to bear in mind for a new MMO.

[palmer_eldritch]

I run around in AoC zones and see loads of people. You're just as likely to see other players running around as in WoW.

[lamaros]

I run around in AoC zones and see loads of people. You're just as likely to see other players running around as in WoW.

It's not an issue of the place being populated. It's an issue of it being instanced. I'll assume Lakov has a similar view. It's about the world feeling like a world. This is not just communicated by seeing other people running around, but by feeling that the place is a single consistent place.

You have 650 that play a game, sometimes all 650 are online, sometimes only 200 are online. What seems more world-like to you:

a) A place that is sometimes crowded (650), sometimes empty (200),

or,

b) A place that never has more than 150 people, and very often always 150 people (150 4/5 times when full, 150 1/2 when empty)?

Example is obviously not realistic, just there to demonstrate that instances force a sort of relationship between the player and the playing area, giving it less of a dynamic feel.

[Triforcer]

I think the instancing itself is fine and I'm usually really picky with the immersion aspects. I only wish they hadn't made every zone into an isolated pocket of content, but rather strung them together so you could atleast leave a town through a gate and end up on the other side of the same gate. Opposed to talking to an NPC and end up God knows where in relation to where I were.

This bothers me almost as much as the instancing.  I never felt like the zones connected, it was more like Tortage and Khemi were the Yahoo chess game lobby that whisked me away to random, separate games. 

[shiznitz]

But the alternative is Vanguard's 20 minute trots across empty fields or WoW/EQ2 griffon rides.  Travel times are one of the first things that players complain about after a month or two. It also makes alts even more boring to level up. The only difference with Conan is that I cannot say "well, if you want to sightsee you can but don't force it on the rest of us."

[Lantyssa]

It feels just about right to me.  I don't notice I'm in an instance and there are enough people around to see constant activity without having a crazy amount crowding the town square, like say WoW.  (Possibly too many for the hunting instances, but things seem to be fixing themselves as people spread out.)

I don't even think about it in-game though.  I notice long enough to find where my group-mates are and promptly forget.  If you're fixiated on how OMG not everyone is in the same instance to see how awesome you are, then I guess it could be a problem.

Also collision detection + hordes of people = fail.  Imagine Stormwind with collision detection on.