Supplements

[climbjtree]

Up until now, I've focused a lot of my physical training towards running/swimming. This has kept me in great shape, and done a lot for the muscles used in those activities. I've since developed a desire to see what sort of muscle weight I can gain in the gym. I'm 185 now, and would like to try for 200 in healthy way. I feel like there's no way I'll make that much weight without supplements, and I thought I'd ask if any of you knew anything about them.

I am familiar with the benefits protein shakes + high protein diet. However, I know that there's a lot more available than just that. Got any suggestions?

[Oban]

...
I've since developed a desire to see what sort of muscle weight I can gain in the gym.
...
Got any suggestions?

http://www.steroids-pharmacy.com/sustanon-250-p-48.html

[climbjtree]

Is that just a random steroid link or do you have any experience with it? Furthermore, I'd like to stay away from those for now. I've got buddies who use steroids and it's clearly the fast track, but I'd like to see what I can do with diet and supplements.

[Oban]

Google, but I am pretty sure my trainer uses at least three different brands from that site.

If you have any questions about steroid use, use this link:

http://gov.ca.gov/interact#email

[Margalis]

You don't need supplements to put on 15 pounds of muscle.

[Pennilenko]

You don't need supplements to put on 15 pounds of muscle.

He does if his body is already sustaining his genetic max.

[climbjtree]

I'm in the gym five days a week, and I stay right around 185. I think without that bit of extra help, I wouldn't be able to gain much.

[stray]

Umm... Gorge on whole grain bars, tunafish, and milkshakes.

That is, if you even can. 

[edit] Oh, and cut back on liquids just a bit. Sometimes drinking too much keeps you from being hungry. Fill your stomach with food more often instead.

[WayAbvPar]

[Samwise]

Beefcake.  BEEEEFCAAAKE!

[Azaroth]

Up until now, I've focused a lot of my physical training towards running/swimming. This has kept me in great shape, and done a lot for the muscles used in those activities. I've since developed a desire to see what sort of muscle weight I can gain in the gym. I'm 185 now, and would like to try for 200 in healthy way. I feel like there's no way I'll make that much weight without supplements, and I thought I'd ask if any of you knew anything about them.

I am familiar with the benefits protein shakes + high protein diet. However, I know that there's a lot more available than just that. Got any suggestions?

Uh, protein shakes.. yeah. A little dicey when you do some research on them, but one thing I can tell you for certain is not to touch hydrolyzed protein. Or soy (that isn't organic.. beyond that, it's your choice).

Most supplements are garbage mixed up in some guy's basement. 99.9% completely untested, and generally not only a waste of money, but potentially pretty dangerous long term.

If you want to pop a bunch of pills and shit to attempt some sort of half-assed chemical enchancement, go with what actually works. Just grab some steroids. Seriously.

But you can do just fine being clean. You know, actually improving your health with your diet and exercise regimen instead of destroying it. But I won't harp. I was at the "how many supplements can I cram down my throat" stage when I was in my late teens. I ended up taking several things that later got banned or were seen as quite dangerous.

Eat big, get your protein, and bust your ass in the gym. Your lifts will go up, you will get bigger. You don't need pills and powders. The benefit you'd see from that shit is honestly very marginal anyway.

[climbjtree]

post

Thanks. What do you suggest then for diet? Just high protein stuff like chicken and tuna, or what? Do you do the three meals a day thing or the 5 or 6 smaller meals? Is there really any difference?

[Azaroth]

post

Thanks. What do you suggest then for diet? Just high protein stuff like chicken and tuna, or what? Do you do the three meals a day thing or the 5 or 6 smaller meals? Is there really any difference?

Ah, big difference. Especially if you're on a cut. You want to keep your metabolism running.

You can do three if you want and it's what your wife cooks or whatever, just count calories and hit your number by adding in a couple of small meals.

Beyond metabolism, your body will use x calories at a time and probably store the rest. So eating one meal consisting of an entire extra large pizza and a 2L of pepsi will make you fat and weak. You'll store the pizza and the pepsi as fat, and the rest of the day your body will eat away at the metabolically expensive muscle that it's not being fed properly to maintain.

Also consider that there's a debate on about how much protein the body can utilize at once. Meaning that you might not even absorb all of the protein in the greasy cheese on that pizza. Some say 50g, some say 75g, etc. Just to be safe and to make sure you actually get a benefit from the expensive protein you consume, make sure you eat it in smaller amounts throughout the day. At least you play it safe that way. You don't want to be thinking you're getting 225g when you're only getting 90g, because you'll wonder why your lifts are going down further and further and you'll have no idea why.

What I suggest for an actual diet would depend on whether you're bulking or cutting, your weight, age, bodyfat percentage, etc.

Regardless, you want to ahead and get at least 1g of protein per pound of lean body mass (bodyweight - fat, you'll need to get your bodyfat percentage measured to figure this out exactly, but an estimate is fine as long as you overshoot your protein). There are people who will tell you to get two and three grams per pound of LBM, but that's a bunch of (expensive) bullshit. 1-1.5 will do you just fine.

Beyond that, it depends what you're after. Eating a bunch of McDonalds and fatty steak will make sure you get stronger, as long as you're working for it (and you know how to properly work out). You'll also get fat, and have a harder time cutting down later. But you'll get stronger as long as you work hard and keep your body in a state of calorie surplus.

However, a completely clean bulk is just as hard as a cut. But you mainly want to get a lot of complex carbs and a lot of protein. Find your metabolic rate (calories burned during the day), and add about 500. Stay away from simple carbs (bread, white rice, beer, etc) except for post workout meals where they may actually have some benefit. But don't overdo it.

Chicken and tuna is good, eggs (egg whites) is even better. Vegetable protein is worse. Mainly because of amino acid profiles and various rates of absorption and things like that. But as long as you get your protein (and it's complete protein), you're golden. On a bulk, anyway. But get your carbs and your fats, too. Carbs are of extreme importance when trying to put on muscle, and without fats your hormone levels are going to dry up.

[slog]

Up until now, I've focused a lot of my physical training towards running/swimming. This has kept me in great shape, and done a lot for the muscles used in those activities. I've since developed a desire to see what sort of muscle weight I can gain in the gym. I'm 185 now, and would like to try for 200 in healthy way. I feel like there's no way I'll make that much weight without supplements, and I thought I'd ask if any of you knew anything about them.

I am familiar with the benefits protein shakes + high protein diet. However, I know that there's a lot more available than just that. Got any suggestions?

Uh, protein shakes.. yeah. A little dicey when you do some research on them, but one thing I can tell you for certain is not to touch hydrolyzed protein. Or soy (that isn't organic.. beyond that, it's your choice).

Most supplements are garbage mixed up in some guy's basement. 99.9% completely untested, and generally not only a waste of money, but potentially pretty dangerous long term.

If you want to pop a bunch of pills and shit to attempt some sort of half-assed chemical enchancement, go with what actually works. Just grab some steroids. Seriously.

But you can do just fine being clean. You know, actually improving your health with your diet and exercise regimen instead of destroying it. But I won't harp. I was at the "how many supplements can I cram down my throat" stage when I was in my late teens. I ended up taking several things that later got banned or were seen as quite dangerous.

Eat big, get your protein, and bust your ass in the gym. Your lifts will go up, you will get bigger. You don't need pills and powders. The benefit you'd see from that shit is honestly very marginal anyway.

I agree completely. There is no government agency No one is out there monitoring supplements to make sure they work or what's in them.  Scary shit.

[bhodi]

I want a health burrito that has all this shit, I hate dealing with diet.

In fact, just give me a meal pill.

[Oban]

Not a single pill solution, but try a Dayquil and a Centrum.

[bhodi]

Also, wait -

How many of you are taking steroids or other injectable or ingestible things that aren't "herbal" or "vitamin" supplements like centrum multivitamins - actual stuff like steroids?

[Logain]

I don't technically take steroids but I am halfway through a pro-hormone cycle. I've gained 30 pounds of almost completely lean muscle in the past 3 months.

As far as supplements go, most are bullshit, just like everyone says. However, there are a few worth looking at.

Creatine Monohydrate or Creatine Ethyl Ester. Monohydrate is the proven classic but involves loading ~20g's a day for a week or so which is painful. The ethyl ester is not supposed to require a loading phase but that is not completely proven. The benefits of creatine are well-documented, however, and your workouts would benefit from it's supplementation. You'll be able to push yourself harder for longer and your gains will improve.

Also, protein is a huge deal. Make sure you're eating about 1g of protein per pound of body weight every day or you'll be losing potential growth. Also, what you eat right before you go to sleep is extremely important. I drink a protein shake of isopure whey, 75g's pure protein, immediately before sleep and that keeps your body building all night long, whereas otherwise it would be starving.

Other than that, the only thing worth taking really is a good multivitamin and perhaps calcium and vitamin C. It all depends on how serious you are and how much money you've got to spend. However, the situation is hardly waste your money on bullshit or go straight for life-fuck-uping steroids.

[Azaroth]

Wait. You're decrying steroids while cycling prohormones?

[Raging Turtle]

Thought about chiming in with this on the diet thread but since it was mentioned here...

It looks like that 5-6 meals a day thing may be a myth

One study isn't definitive proof, of course, but I haven't seen much hard research supporting the other side beyond lots of websites saying 'oh yeah, do this, everyone does it'. 

Azaroth, where are you getting your information on protein powder, which you seem to dislike?  I've heard absolutely nothing but good things about it, and I certainly *feel* like I'm making bigger gains and recovering faster since I've made it part of my diet (one when I wake up, one before bed, double dose immediately after the gym).  Part of that may be that I had an extremely low protein intake before, but I'd be interested in seeing some articles saying it's not a good idea.   I did hear that getting a majority of your protein from soy based sources isn't wise - messes with your estrogen levels.  Or that may just be for women.

Other than that, I agree with what you said:  Read up on bulking and cutting, make sure you're getting at least the *minimum* recommended protein intake for an athlete.  Also make sure you're getting at least 8 hours of sleep a night - that's when your body is actually building the most muscle, and why you ideally want some slow-digesting protein before you go to bed (food, not shakes).

Don't know much about 'real' supplements, legal or otherwise, so I can't really comment.  But people tell me they're not something to consider unless you've been lifting for a year plus and really hit that plateau .

[K9]

I tend to use Maximuscle products and I've had good results with them. I'm not inclined to touch the prohormones or steroids (the side effects of unmonitored steroid use can be really nasty). That said I take protein mixes that include CLA which helps cut down body fat, and I've dabbled with Creatine with fair results. Maximuscle is also notable in that their products dont taste like fermented arse.

Also, say no to Synthol 

[slog]

I tend to use Maximuscle products and I've had good results with them. I'm not inclined to touch the prohormones or steroids (the side effects of unmonitored steroid use can be really nasty). That said I take protein mixes that include CLA which helps cut down body fat, and I've dabbled with Creatine with fair results. Maximuscle is also notable in that their products dont taste like fermented arse.

It make me sad that people say things like "CLA is ok to take" (I know, I'm paraphrasing) then they link to an article that says:

In 2006, a study by the US Department of Agriculture suggested that CLA can induce essential fatty acid redistribution in mice. Changes in docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) and arachidonic acid (AA) levels were observed in some organs. For instance, certain CLA isomers reduced the DHA content of heart tissue by 25%, while in the spleen, DHA content rose, and AA fell.[2] A study of CLA supplementation in hatchling chicks (2005) showed high mortality and low hatchability rates among CLA-supplemented groups, and also a decrease in brain DHA levels of CLA-treated chicks[1]. These studies raise the question of whether CLA may increase the risk of cardiovascular and inflammatory diseases, but it has yet to be established whether such changes occur in humans, and whether they are clinically relevant

[Oban]

Those have got to be implants.

[Azaroth]

Although one wonders what we're talking about exactly, too. Were they measuring bodyfat or scale weight? Was there any type of exercise involved, or exercise that put added demands on the body for nutrition? There have been studies to suggest that we can only utilize so much protein at a time too, so I'm curious as to whether one group was losing some more muscle weight in comparison to the other group, which would certainly make up any difference.

The problem with that study is that I can think of ten or twenty simple fuckups that would make it entirely useless. Which is one reason why a single study generally means jack.

I've heard absolutely nothing but good things about it, and I certainly *feel* like I'm making bigger gains and recovering faster since I've made it part of my diet (one when I wake up, one before bed, double dose immediately after the gym).

You probably are. It's protein, so.

Anyway, linking all of the studies, information and references would be tedious and of interest to about three people on this forum. The short version is that hydrolyzed protein is broken down amino acids, one of which is glutamate. Free glutamate = MSG. Or more correctly, MSG = Free glutamate.

Also, MSG is only one of several forms of free glutamate used in foods. Free glutamate may also be present in a wide variety of other additives, including hydrolyzed vegetable proteins, autolyzed yeast, hydrolyzed yeast, yeast extract, soy extracts, protein isolate, "spices" and "natural flavorings." The food additives disodium inosinate and disodium guanylate are useful only in synergy with MSG-containing ingredients, and provide a likely indicator of the presence of MSG in a product.

For this reason, FDA considers labels such as "No MSG" or "No Added MSG" to be misleading if the food contains ingredients that are sources of free glutamate, such as hydrolyzed protein.

MSG is a particularly nasty neurotoxin which is used specifically in lab rats to both cause blindness and induce obesity. It's also excitoxic, carcinogenic, and so on. So personally, I make the decision not to drink MSG milkshakes. I did for many years, though.

Soy is a particular no-no. That's aside from the estrogen stuff.

Ask any professional chef worth their salt and with a connection to where their food comes from, or just do a little research. Soy that isn't organic is a genetically modified crop which is engineered to be specifically resistant to a glyphosate called RoundUp. Farmers are contractually required to purchase and spray their crops with RoundUp. RoundUp is also one of the most dangerous motherfucking chemicals known to man, and we're not even close to figuring out all of the heinous impacts it has on human health. But there's a wide array to choose from so far.

All of this, of course, engineered by a single, truly American, company. Monsanto. They've brought you many of the neat deadly chemicals in your food supply. Aspartame, rBGH, MSG, etc.

[Azaroth]

Those have got to be implants.

Actually, it's a type of injection and he's an idiot.

Steroids or not, to have biceps that big you'd naturally gain SOME kind of forearm development. He has absolutely none.

[Oban]

I just love the gut he has, it goes really well with the upper arms.

[stray]

I would think (in my pragmatic, but not highly educated opinion) that some supplements would be OK (just to meet a specific goal, of course..not as an alternative to real meals). It's very hard to consume 1g per pound of protein a day, just through food alone. Therefore the need for "supplements". I don't bother with it myself, but if I ever really wanted to beef up, I'd have to (200+ grams of protein would be my requirement...so fuck that).

Whatever negative effects they might have, the body is going to recover from. We're pretty resilient to all kinds of nasty shit (once you ween off). And in the grand scale of things, I highly doubt that protein supplements are much to worry about anyhow. That bag of chips you're gorging on, or that soda you're drinking, or the cold medicine you're taking, is probably worse. Hell, if you really wanted to obsess about it, even freaking orange or apple juice isn't all that great for you either.

[Margalis]

I still don't get the basic premise. If he has been doing mostly running/swimming and wants to switch to putting on muscle mass that shouldn't require supplements.

[stray]

Well yeah.. 15 lbs doesn't. 30 lbs or more would.

[Azaroth]

Whatever negative effects they might have, the body is going to recover from.

That's a pretty dangerous opinion you have there.

You do realize that you're not invincible, right?

[Raging Turtle]

I would think (in my pragmatic, but not highly educated opinion) that some supplements would be OK (just to meet a specific goal, of course..not as an alternative to real meals). It's very hard to consume 1g per pound of protein a day, just through food alone. Therefore the need for "supplements". I don't bother with it myself, but if I ever really wanted to beef up, I'd have to (200+ grams of protein would be my requirement...so fuck that).

It's pretty easy with protein shakes, which aren't really considered 'supplements'.  Have a meat-heavy meal once a day, 2-3 whey protein shakes with your other meals, and you're good.  The whey protein they have on shelves now is pretty damn efficient.

[Logain]

Wait. You're decrying steroids while cycling prohormones?

Its been my experience that there is a huge difference between oral prohormones and injectible steroids. Every juicer I know talks about steroids the same way smokers talk about cigarettes. They know its destroying their lives but they can't stop. Prohormones aren't innocent of course but they aren't quite the same animal. The only real danger is to your liver and that just requires some responsibility.

Also I'm posting this on my new iPhone which fucking rocks LOL

[stray]

Whatever negative effects they might have, the body is going to recover from.

That's a pretty dangerous opinion you have there.

You do realize that you're not invincible, right?

Uh, you do realize that I'm just talking about protein supplements too, right? Not huffing gas! Taking Cyto-Gainer or something is no alternative to food, but it sure as hell isn't anything to scare people about. If anything though, I'd be more cautious about the extreme amount of carbs in a typical shake. There's only so much a typical person could burn off.

[Azaroth]

Uh, you do realize that I'm just talking about protein supplements too, right? Not huffing gas! Taking Cyto-Gainer or something is no alternative to food, but it sure as hell isn't anything to scare people about. If anything though, I'd be more cautious about the extreme amount of carbs in a typical shake. There's only so much a typical person could burn off.

Protein supplements are more dangerous than people give them credit for. Which I was just talking about.

[Arnold]

Up until now, I've focused a lot of my physical training towards running/swimming. This has kept me in great shape, and done a lot for the muscles used in those activities. I've since developed a desire to see what sort of muscle weight I can gain in the gym. I'm 185 now, and would like to try for 200 in healthy way. I feel like there's no way I'll make that much weight without supplements, and I thought I'd ask if any of you knew anything about them.

I am familiar with the benefits protein shakes + high protein diet. However, I know that there's a lot more available than just that. Got any suggestions?

You'd be surprised.  Protein + calories FTW!  Most "hardgainers" just don't eat enough.