WotLK spoilerfication

[Merusk]

Hunter DPS is based on lots of small shots in a quick amount of time.  That requires the exact opposite of what contributes to arena survivability: Mobility.

   To DPS as a hunter you stand in one spot, because only the worthless stings and arcane shot are instants.  If you're good you can get a multi-shot off on-the run, but that's it.  Steady and Autoshot, which are the bulk of our DPS, require us to stand still.  Aimed Shot is our hardest-hitting single shot and if you can crit 3k on a clothie these days, you're fucking uber.

[Fordel]

I've been saying that since forever!


Why does no one listen   

[Merusk]

So.. I spent a little bit of yesterday reading the beta hunter forums.  It's actually going about how I expected.

Blizzard: We realize hunter mobility is an issue in PVP.
Hunters: Yay!
Blizzard: Here's Master's Call as a base ability (strips movement debuffs. I think it's on a 2 min cd.)
Hunters: Well, the CD sucks but still, not bad you look like you're getting it.
Blizzard: Oh, we also noticed nobody uses disengage.  So we're changing that to a reverse-charge.  It'll throw you back like the Ogre NPCs do, on a CD yet to be determined.
Hunters: Wow, that might be pretty fucking cool.
Blizzard: Here's Kill Shot. A 20% Range execute!
Hunters: Woah! Fuck that's awesome. We get a really cool burst damage ability.. but ... Wait.  Wtf.  It knocks you down for 2sec when you use it?!
Blizzard: Yeah.  Oh by the way, Kill Command is overpowered right now, so we're changing it to a 15 second buff every 2 mins that makes your pets next 3 abilites crit.
Hunters: Wha?
Blizzard: Also, we've shown internally that this is a 140DPS upgrade.. but we won't tell you how we reached that conclusion.
Hunters: Fuck. Uh.. what?

Still gonna stick with Lock/ Pally I think.

[K9]

The justification behind Kill Command being changed was that it wasn't being used as intended, as a reactive ability. Rather it was just something you spammed by default as part of a rotation. I'm not sure what the outcome will be though, with the changes to the pet talent trees this could be a good change.

I am envious though, priests are getting no attention at the moment in beta :(

[Paelos]

I haven't seen much on warriors either. I know they are trying to fix the problems with overgearing content by generating rage on dodges and parries, but I'm not sure what they intend to do with them as tanks overall.

[Ingmar]

I haven't seen much on warriors either. I know they are trying to fix the problems with overgearing content by generating rage on dodges and parries, but I'm not sure what they intend to do with them as tanks overall.

Arms/fury got a pass, protection may be in the next build but it is not for sure, according to GC.

[K9]

I haven't seen much on warriors either. I know they are trying to fix the problems with overgearing content by generating rage on dodges and parries, but I'm not sure what they intend to do with them as tanks overall.

Given that they're also trying to push priests into single target healing with shields, I'm half-anticipating a major overhaul of how bears and warrs generate rage. This affects tankadins too, since they need to take damage to regenerate mana.

[Fordel]

Expect Paladins to be virtually redone in their entirety before Beta's end... again.

[Nonentity]

Having had 3 level cap warriors, let me briefly explain the PVP changes for warriors in build 8820:

 

[Ingmar]

Having had 3 level cap warriors, let me briefly explain the PVP changes for warriors in build 8820:

 

Fury looks fantastic for PVP right now. I don't know that the auto-attack MS debuff 100% proc rate thing has much of a chance of going live as is, though.

[Merusk]

Expect Paladins to be virtually redone in their entirety before Beta's end... again.

You saying this because of the completely broken judgements, the mana issues with prot pallies or something else?

[K9]

New Talent - Furious Attacks (Tier 8 ) - Your normal melee attacks have a 50/100% chance to reduce all healing done to the target by 25% for 8 sec. This can stack up to 2 times.

.....

[Fordel]

Expect Paladins to be virtually redone in their entirety before Beta's end... again.

You saying this because of the completely broken judgements, the mana issues with prot pallies or something else?

All of the above and then some. The Dual scaling of paladin attacks with both SP and AP is going to be a constant headache and trying to make abilities 'expensive' relative to use for Holy Paladins that are shared with Prot Paladins seems like a lesson in futility.

Also the few blue posts actually on or about Paladins, are summed up by "This is a rough draft, expect more major changes".


Then there is the ever present issues of Holy still being shit to actually play, Prot still trivializing anything with more then 3 mobs and Ret still not bringing enough to a raid while its damage being wildly inconsistent (if not flat out broken one way or the other).


They ain't close to done with Paladins yet, no.



My personal suspicion, which I have no evidence or facts to back up, are they intend to see what works from the Melee/Heal hybrids in WAR, and 'Blizzardfy' them for Paladins. 

[Ironwood]

Stupid question, probably, but is there any place I can get a handy breakdown of what's going on in the beta, such as patch notes and whatnot ?

[Nonentity]

Stupid question, probably, but is there any place I can get a handy breakdown of what's going on in the beta, such as patch notes and whatnot ?

http://www.mmo-champion.com/

[Simond]

http://www.wotlkwiki.info/index.php/Main_Page

[Ironwood]

Thanks Gentlemen.

[Merusk]

Expect Paladins to be virtually redone in their entirety before Beta's end... again.

You saying this because of the completely broken judgements, the mana issues with prot pallies or something else?

All of the above and then some. The Dual scaling of paladin attacks with both SP and AP is going to be a constant headache and trying to make abilities 'expensive' relative to use for Holy Paladins that are shared with Prot Paladins seems like a lesson in futility.

Also the few blue posts actually on or about Paladins, are summed up by "This is a rough draft, expect more major changes".


Then there is the ever present issues of Holy still being shit to actually play, Prot still trivializing anything with more then 3 mobs and Ret still not bringing enough to a raid while its damage being wildly inconsistent (if not flat out broken one way or the other).


They ain't close to done with Paladins yet, no.



My personal suspicion, which I have no evidence or facts to back up, are they intend to see what works from the Melee/Heal hybrids in WAR, and 'Blizzardfy' them for Paladins. 

I don't know about the melee-hybrids thing from WAR.  Those classes are so different from current pally mechanics, and I can't imagine they didn't get someone into the beta before this.  The DoK and WP in WAR  work similar to warriors in WoW.  The difference being they have 2 pools to pull from. You beat on things, draining your Action Points to fill your energy bar.  You then use your energy bar to cast your important heals and bigger damaging abilities.

The problem they're running into with Pallies is they're trying to avoid implementing 5 different sets of plate armor.  Dps, Healing, Tanking, Pally DPS, Pally Tanking.  I just don't see it working out because Warrior and Pally ability pool mechanics are so very different.  Pallies NEED int, Warriors simply don't need Int, ever.

 Then the need to have pallies to Damage to tank really fucks things up.  They're removing/ reducing the usefulness of "Threat" so.. they either have Prot Pallies doing nutty damage for a class that can heal themselves and bubble or they throw pally tanking under a bus again.

Whoo what a mess.

[K9]

The best solution to this is obviously to let priests wear plate armour, and then itemise everything with spirit 

[lamaros]

I think the new trailer is pretty nifty. Much better than the TBC one was.

[pxib]

I think the new trailer is pretty nifty. Much better than the TBC one was.

Yes it are cinematic, writing, lore, and graphics.

It doesn't get me excited about the expansion at all, however, because it only refers to a character I (never went on a single raid) will never see who, at best, will be killed two or three times a day for his leet lewtz. Epic filmmaking, same dumb game.

[Fordel]

Prot Paladins don't need Int, they need regen (and I don't mean mp5). A Prot Paladin can not regen mana in a no damage/heal scenario. Even the most over geared warrior can smack something to build up rage. Once the Prot Pallies base pool is gone in the same situation, it is gone. The crux is it must be deep enough in Prot, or unique enough to tanking/off tanking that a Holy Paladin can't take advantage of it. Otherwise a Prot paladin can full well use pure 'warrior' tank gear with the current changes of WoTLK in place. (We almost already do in TBC)

Ret Paladins mostly need consistency and to be brought up to the same DPS level's that other classes specced for pure DPS can achieve. The consistency is going to be a huge headache, since Ret still revolves around PROCRITORAMA mechanics. The Judgement of the Wise mechanic in Ret as things stand, currently remove any mana issues Ret may have (too well currently, but Beta Bugged etc.)


Neither Ret nor Prot is healing in any relevant way, especially in their spec specific gear. The idea that they'll do OMG DPS then start throwing down the heals, is as flawed as it is old and outdated.


The odd Man out, is essentially Holy. Holy is what requires the special gear, and the special mechanic scaling. Both Prot and Ret could go 100% over to AP scaling (same way a DK's spells use AP) and live happily ever after. Instead we still have to prance around Holy and it's needs. With the Dual scaling, Blizz will either work under the assumption that Prot/Ret will be double dipping buff wise and baseline them around that, which will cause them to under preform when that isn't possible. Or they will baseline them around a single stat, which will cause them to over preform when they can double up.

All because we 'need'  to keep Holy as some shitty half-priest spam spec, that no one actually likes outside of the people that will do anything to ensure they have a raid slot (which right now in TBC, they don't actually have... unless you count standing outside the instance to rebuff people  )


Which is why, in Blind Hope, referred to Blizz maybe copying WAR's melee hybrids. At first glance, the WP and DoK do NOT seem to revolve around reacting to every situation with the same spam heals day in and out. They look like what I hoped Holy would turn out in the first place, the 'I smack you to heal my friends, I smack you in a different way to buff them' 

There is just no where to take FoLight spam game play wise. It's silly and frustrating and cocks everything else up in the class with it's requirements.


PS. Holy STILL doesn't have a proper fucking HoT/Shield spell. 

[K9]

You can have an off-healer hybrid healing system, just look at shadowpriests. VE is never going to replace true heals, but it's nice for smoothing over bumps in a number of encounters. The likelihood of Paladins getting something remotely similiar (or wanting something like this) is wholly up in the air.

PS. Holy STILL doesn't have a proper fucking HoT/Shield spell. 

Sure you do, it's just in tier4 of Ret

[Fordel]

Even in jest, it still sucks. The HoT just uses the last Crit as the base, overwriting superior crit HoTs. So you could Crit with a huge Holy Light, then immediately over write it with your own Flash of Light crit. It's also only based off the amount actually healed. The fact so many Holy Paladins try to make 4X/2X split regardless should tell Blizzard SOMETHING.


Ret Paladins will be the rough equivalent to Shadow priests. Divine Storm has a group heal component and Judge of the Wise (when it finally works properly) will be a group mana return. Of course Beta, Numbers, Tweaked etc...


I don't want Holy to be a off-heal Melee'er. I want them to be a Main-Heal Melee'er. Instead of attack bonuses being DPS adds, they would be healing/shielding to the 'marked' player and the group. Take a Blood DK, and instead of all the healing being self only, make it for your friendly target (just add some specific healing prayer buff for the single target stuff) and probably tone down the actual DPS significantly (or don't  ). Keep a few 'normal' healing abilities for the odd times you can't melee/heal. Add in a talent that converts STR into INT or whatever and scale everything off of AP.

Removed the special plate for Holy, Made Holy not suck to play and lets you give all Paladins a reasonable combat stat/mechanic conversion.


I'm well into Fantasy Vision land now though   



Un-Related Post: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/1/9023610738-raid-stacking-in-wrath-of-the-lich-king.html About Class roles in Raids, relevant to anyone who intends to do something bigger then a 5 man.

[Merusk]

A slew of opt-in beta invites just went out as the wife and I both got them.  They invited so many that I can't even login to the account management page.  Check your e-mail.

[Fordel]

None for me 


Prot Had its tree condensed a whole crap load.

Ret is pretty cool now, has this instant heal proc for Flash of Light when they get a critical hit. Sheathe has been moved in really deep, to prevent Holy Paladins from going 40/25 Holy/Ret or whatever it was. Instead they are going 35/35 Holy/Ret for the new Judgment of the Wise.

Holy itself is still the same old poop. 70 talents to improve those 2.5 heal spells. 

[K9]

It could be worse, you could be a priest who haven't so much been hit with the nerf bat but run over multiple times with the nerf tank.

[Fordel]

Even a nerfed priest is still leaps and bounds superior to a Holy paladin. They still get a freaking HoT!

[Ingmar]

There's a bunch of priest love on the way supposedly, too. A lot of this talent nerfing business, especially for shadow priests, is happening because they're unfucking the base abilities.

[Fabricated]

Woo, I'm in the beta now along with half the northern hemisphere since the latest wave of invites.

I've only really played my prot warrior so far, and not even to 71 yet. I've ran Utgarde Keep once.

Notes so far:

-Goddamn it if Cobalt nodes aren't very common at all right now. I ran all over the Howling Fjords and into like 2 other zones and only found like 2 stacks worth of ore in an hour. Got to see lot of cool stuff and fill my map out though.

-The zones are -huge-. The map makes Northrend look smaller than Outlands but don't let that fool you. I'd say if I'm judging scale right Northrend is probably...1.5 times or so bigger overall. It's also more populated and filled with less dead space than Outlands.

-Lot of the new interface stuff is pretty nice. The Calander is going to be the best thing ever if it can be synced with other guilds.

On Prot Warriors:

-The Damage, so beautiful, should've sent a poet. Devastating for ~400+ (little fuzzy on this, can't recall it may be more), shield slams that crit for 2.8-3k, concussion blow doing 2.2k on crits, 450ish damage thunderclaps, 700-800 from shockwave. YOU CAN ACTUALLY SOLO in defensive stance while wearing tank gear and not spend 2 hours killing shit!

-Tanking may now actually be fun when pugging, and gloriously fun with people you know. I went into Utgarde Keep with a pretty overpowered level 74 ret pally, a holy pally, and 2 other DPS who couldn't focus fire on anything even with marks and I barely ever lost aggro. Even then it was only momentary.

Pulls are like this: Charge->Thunderclap->Back up->Shockwave->Pull completely controlled.

Thunderclap/shockwave seems to be able to handle anything if your group isn't retarded, and I was actually contributing to DPS.

-Vigilance is nice but we're gonna need mods and macros to make sure we keep it up and notice when it's gone. It's a good way to neutralize "THAT GUY" in pugs, or well, "THAT GUY" in raids who has no idea what this "threat" thing is.

-Holy shit you get a lot of block now. In my reitemized avoidance gear (mix of T4, T6-level badge gear, SSC/ZA loot) I had over 600-something block.

[Phunked]

It's the str-block conversion that you're seeing.

I tank in dps gear at 80 and the difference is that str is now the best threat stat (after being the worst at 70).

They increased it from 20 str to 1 bv to something like 2str->1bv.

Yeah.

[Merusk]

Prot pallys doing damage feels weird, too.   I still have a shitty 41.2dps spelldam weapon and I'm hitting for 300-400 with my hammer spell.  Yarr!

[Fabricated]

It's the str-block conversion that you're seeing.

I tank in dps gear at 80 and the difference is that str is now the best threat stat (after being the worst at 70).

They increased it from 20 str to 1 bv to something like 2str->1bv.

Yeah.

I crafted the whole level 70 green tank set you can make with Blacksmithing, including the shield and tanked Utgarte Keep in it. Worked perfectly. Wasn't OP, wasn't gimpy.

[Fordel]

Prot pallys doing damage feels weird, too.   I still have a shitty 41.2dps spelldam weapon and I'm hitting for 300-400 with my hammer spell.  Yarr!

Do you have Holy Shield slam yet? Everything I've read points to that being 

[Ingmar]

Your devastate damage sounds high to me, unless you're remembering crits. Even with the 80% change I'm not in the 400s with it at 76 I don't think.

Hm, maybe now I need to log in and check.