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Author Topic: Spore/Mass Effect Requires A Virgin Sacrifice on Western Coast of Easter Island  (Read 140864 times)
Nerf
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Reply #35 on: May 11, 2008, 02:32:39 AM

Don't be stupid Snakecharmer, if you hack into my bank account and take money out, that means I no longer have access to that money, of course it's stealing, you have deprived me of somtihng.

And really, traffic isn't tangible? That's a fucking retarded comment, you should know better.
Azazel
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Reply #36 on: May 11, 2008, 02:33:37 AM

If I hack into your bank, and (digitally) transfer all your money to my account, it's not stealing since I didn't take the actual physical dollars from it?

You're being deliberately obtuse and you know it.


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Azazel
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Reply #37 on: May 11, 2008, 02:36:31 AM

On the comedy channel here, there's an Aussie comedian with a bit that they keep using as a promo. It goes like this. (sorry, couldnt' find a video link).

Quote
I was watching a DVD the other day, and it had all this anti-piracy information at the beginning of it, you know? It was saying things like, “You wouldn’t steal a car, would you? You wouldn’t steal someone’s wallet, would you?” And I was thinking, “You know, that’s right! I wouldn’t steal a car.” But you know, if a mate of mine called me up and said, “Hey, I just got this new car, would you like me to burn you a copy??” I reckon I might consider it …

http://azazelx.wordpress.com/ - My Miniatures and Hobby Blog.
Wasted
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Reply #38 on: May 11, 2008, 02:39:07 AM

Breaking a law which you think is unjust is a valid means of protest, it may get you fined/arrested but it is a valid form of protest.  How valid it is will generally be determined by how others interpret and approve of your actions.  Trying to start a movement in favour of Grandmother assault would probably only get you a load of trouble and derision.  It is testimony to the validity of filesharing arguments that so many people around the world are in support it.

Not buying the product is one form of protest, telling the relevant people why supports it.  Actively altering the product to address your concerns, and going even further to actively distribute that altered product IS another form of protest as it shows conclusively that you support the product as something of worth, just not in its current iteration.

And on another note, any gaming company that doesn't consider each 'illegal' download as a protest against pricing, distribution restrictions, copy protection measures or rights restrictive EULA bullshit is missing valuable insight in how to better design, distribute and market their products to gain an advantage.  The larger corporations can spend lots of money to enforce what they think are their rights and control distribution channels, the smaller companies have to find other more creative ways to engage the market and its expectations.

« Last Edit: May 11, 2008, 02:44:47 AM by Wasted »
SnakeCharmer
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Reply #39 on: May 11, 2008, 02:47:10 AM

Don't be stupid Snakecharmer, if you hack into my bank account and take money out, that means I no longer have access to that money, of course it's stealing, you have deprived me of somtihng.

Pretty much the same thing as depriving the developer a sale via piracy?

Sure thing.

Quote
And really, traffic isn't tangible? That's a fucking retarded comment, you should know better.

There's no ads here.  No tshirts for sale (anymore?).  He's not lost anything. 

You're being deliberately obtuse and you know it.

Yeah, I am.   Either way, it's stealing.  But all this 'tangible' bullshit is exactly that.  Bullshit. 

It doesn't matter the method in which it's obtained - via a datastream off some torrent search engine (software piracy) or breaking into the vault and taking the dollars directly from it, it's theft.

Making some consumer statement about antipiracy software by pirating software isn't going to stick it to The Man.  The Man is going to stick it right back to you (generally speaking) in terms of higher game purchase cost and more antipiracy measures.   So yeah, feel free to pirate away in some protest whilst fucking over the people that purchase it legitimately.  The wheels on the bus will continue to go 'round and 'round. 

Theft in protest is still theft.
Trippy
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Reply #40 on: May 11, 2008, 02:48:00 AM

I'm still at a loss to understand how consumers are getting bent over by this.

And I don't see the correlation that antipiracy software means you don't own something.
It can depending on the way the DRM system works. Here's a concrete example. Songs purchased through MSN Music are DRM-encumbered. You have to "validate" your songs if for some reason it thinks the music is no longer being played on an "authorized" device. For example, if you upgrade your computer, it may no longer think the computer is authorized (similar to the way Windows XP validation works). The validation process is handled by special validation servers. Microsoft is shutting down those servers, just because. This means that customers who bought music from MSN Music that for whatever reason need to have songs revalidated/reauthorized are screwed. Microsoft's suggested workaround? Burn them to a CD and then copy them back. Unfortunately circumventing DRM is illegal under the DMCA which is what that workaround is doing. That means MS is advocating their customers break the law to get around the fact that MS is shutting down their servers. What if you forget to (or didn't know you were supposed to) burn them to a CD before upgrading/changing systems? Sorry you are screwed -- no refunds.

Stephen Zepp
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Reply #41 on: May 11, 2008, 02:49:10 AM

Game developers didn't start putting in copy protection until people started stealing their products en mass. MosesandStick mentioned growing up in SEA--I didn't grow up there, but I spent quite a bit of time, and have seen the "stores" where you can walk in and by any game you wanted, including photocopied manuals, for a buck or two, back before they were routinely protected.

I've watched the evolution of copy protection, from having to hunt for passwords based on page number and line/word number, through "spin wheels" (couldn't be as easily photocopied), to boot sector/track offsets to break being able to raw copy floppies, all the way to what we have to deal with today--I've played games for 28 years now, and been involved in making them for 3.

Consumers have been fucking over game developers from the beginning--and started the whole damn thing. Trying to use the "but we're just counter-fucking the damned greedy game developers!" is circular logic--they wouldn't be "screwing you" if you wouldn't fucking steal from them.

And before you even start to say, "but, I'm not a pirate, I didn't steal first!", think about it: if you pirate software, you're a thief, and breaking the law. It doesn't matter who did it first, you are taking something that you didn't pay for, and is not yours.

I learned that was wrong at about age 4 or 5 myself, but it appears it's a lesson that isn't taught anymore?

Rumors of War
CassandraR
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Reply #42 on: May 11, 2008, 02:59:20 AM

I'm not confusing anything--but you are completely fucked in the head if you think any of what you wrote matters at all.

1) So that means that homeless people can go ahead and steal food, clothing, and camp in your living room because they can't afford to pay?
2) Ahh--the "it's not important enough to me to respect the law" argument. I see what you did there.
3) And here we have the "it's not good enough to pay for, but it's good enough to steal" argument.
4) Anarchy ftw?

What scares me more than anything else in the rationalizations you and others are giving is the mentality that "oh, that doesn't apply to me entitlement implied in the rationalizations. Once you've crossed that line, there is no stopping you. Once you, as a population group have that concept embedded in your rationalization process, anything goes, given enough time.

If homeless people could pirate food, clothing and shelter like people can pirate computer games then no one would ever go hungry. How would that in any sense be a bad thing?
Mosesandstick
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Reply #43 on: May 11, 2008, 02:59:36 AM

There are multiple shades of gray but newer copright protection measures are changing the landscape completely.

As multiple people have mentioned previously, you are not buying games anymore, you are merely renting them. Companies are taking away the right of consumers to own their goods and then charging them a full price for it. I think the right thing to do is to simply not buy games but as Wasted said, if the law is going to fuck you over then you respond appropriately. History is full of examples of people breaking the law for the right reason. I hope one of the lawyers on the board can elucidate about how the law works in these areas but I'm pretty sure current laws are not up to scratch for protecting consumers' right in the digital age.
SnakeCharmer
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Reply #44 on: May 11, 2008, 03:01:50 AM

If homeless people could pirate food, clothing and shelter like people can pirate computer games then no one would ever go hungry. How would that in any sense be a bad thing?

Overpopulation.
Wasted
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Reply #45 on: May 11, 2008, 03:05:21 AM

I learned when I was young that it is good to share as well.

I'm looking at the legally purchased 'The Witcher' DVD on my desk that has 'Do not lend or make illegal copies of this disc' printed quite plainly on it.  Its this do not lend bullshit that is driving the movement, even if its not the motivation behind a lot of the downloading only participates.

Making and distributing digital copies of media not for profit but to share is only defined as stealing because publishers spent lots of money to convince people that it is. This is far removed from the sort of property rights and concept of stealing most 4-5 year olds get taught.
Azazel
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Reply #46 on: May 11, 2008, 03:07:19 AM

An interesting point related to Mosesandstick's post is that Companies in recent years seemingly want things both ways.

What I mean is the mindset that we're "buying a licence" to use the software/game/movie/music applies on one hand. Not a copy of the media, but the right to watch/use/access it.
But on the other hand if you lose or have stolen the physical media it's stored on, well, tough shit. Buy it again.

This is one aspect where the much and oft-maligned Steam is in fact totally unfucked.



Oh, Snakecharmer. Did you read my reply last page on how legitimate users are being bent over/inconvenienced by this particular copy protection? You didn't reply to that at all. And I'm asking in a non-confrontational sense.


And on another note, any gaming company that doesn't consider each 'illegal' download as a protest against pricing, distribution restrictions, copy protection measures or rights restrictive EULA bullshit is missing valuable insight in how to better design, distribute and market their products to gain an advantage.  The larger corporations can spend lots of money to enforce what they think are their rights and control distribution channels, the smaller companies have to find other more creative ways to engage the market and its expectations.

I have to disagree with this bit - most game piracy isn't a protest of any sort, it's just people who don't want to pay for something or can't afford something they want so use other methods to aquire.

« Last Edit: May 11, 2008, 03:15:05 AM by Azazel »

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Stephen Zepp
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Reply #47 on: May 11, 2008, 03:12:21 AM

An interesting point related to Mosesandstick's post is that Companies in recent years seemingly want things both ways.

What I mean is the mindset that we're "buying a licence" to use the software/game/movie/music applies on one hand. Not a copy of the media, but the right to watch/use/access it.
But on the other hand if you lose or have stolen the physical media it's stored on, well, tough shit. Buy it again.

This is one aspect where the much and oft-maligned Steam is in fact totally unfucked.



Totally valid point--but it still doesn't make stealing the license morally/ethically "ok".

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Trippy
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Reply #48 on: May 11, 2008, 03:15:56 AM

I learned when I was young that it is good to share as well.

I'm looking at the legally purchased 'The Witcher' DVD on my desk that has 'Do not lend or make illegal copies of this disc' printed quite plainly on it.  Its this do not lend bullshit that is driving the movement, even if its not the motivation behind a lot of the downloading only participates.

Making and distributing digital copies of media not for profit but to share is only defined as stealing because publishers spent lots of money to convince people that it is. This is far removed from the sort of property rights and concept of stealing most 4-5 year olds get taught.
The "not for profit" part has nothing to do with whether or not it's stealing. By your logic if you take a copy of say, the latest Harry Potter book, photocopy a bazillion copies of it and give them away for free, that's not stealing cause you didn't make any profit on them (in fact it probably cost you a bazillion dollars to make those copies).

Going back to your "Do not lend" comment, Borland way back when had the best software EULA which basically said to treat the software as you would a physical book. A physical book can only be in one place at one time (running on one computer at a time) but you can move it around from place to place (move it from computer to computer as long as multiple copies of it aren't running at the same time), lend it out to other people (again as long as only a single copy is running), and so on.
Nerf
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Reply #49 on: May 11, 2008, 03:16:02 AM

Steam doesn't fuck me in the ass if I upgrade my computer, or want to install a game on every computer in the house.

Snakecharmer, I think perhaps you need some binoculars to read what everyone has been saying from up there on your high horse.

A vast number of us will /not/ purchase a game with cockstab DRM

If I I'm not willing to pay for your product, you havn't lost anything.  For you to lose a sale, I would have to be willing and able to purchase the product, but didn't because a pirated version was available.

So no, it's not like taking money out of my bank account, because you deprived me of money.
If I refuse to purchase your game, you're not getting any money out of me.
If I continue to not purchase your game, or pirate it, you're /still/ not getting any money.

If the reason I'm pirating is your stupid fucking DRM, you just lost yourself a sale, because of your DRM.

And developers screaming "We're not making money because of pirates!1!1!!ONE1!" was just their excuse for shit sales numbers for shit games.  If you didn't make shit games, or priced them at the level of which a shit game should be priced at, people wouldn't pirate them.
Nerf
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Reply #50 on: May 11, 2008, 03:19:20 AM

most game piracy isn't a protest of any sort, it's just people who don't want to pay for something or can't afford something they want so use other methods to aquire.



Important part is bolded.  If the person pirating is unable or unwilling to purchase your game, you're not losing anything when they pirate it.  They aren't going to buy it anyways.
Azazel
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Reply #51 on: May 11, 2008, 03:21:09 AM

here's a question for you.

If I were to buy a copy of, say, Bioshock (since it's available) and decided that I wanted to play an unDRM'ed version of it, and so downloaded the cracked ISO and played that while my legitimately-bought copy sat in my shelf, unopened. What would you think of that?


And it's been brought up in the past - but why on earth a Steam-bought copy of Bioshock still has the 4-install limit applied to it is just a total head-scratcher.


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Tale
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Reply #52 on: May 11, 2008, 03:27:25 AM

But sure, go steal something tangible like gas or a book. And then say to the cops, "What's happening here? I used videogame piracy logic to do this. Its totally legit and on the up and up.

But go steal a videogame and say to the cops, "What's happening here? I used videogame piracy logic to do this. Its totally legit and on the up and up."

The only thing in your favour is that it's harder to catch you stealing the videogame if you do so via illegal download. If the cops fail to catch you stealing a videogame, it's exactly the same as if they fail to catch you stealing gas or book.

Stephen Zepp is correct.
Nerf
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Reply #53 on: May 11, 2008, 03:30:31 AM

Triple tap and I'm off to sleep.

If game companies are losing so much money to piracy, maybe they need to first look inwards and ask the question "Why aren't people buying our shit?"

If your game sold 40,000 copies, and 400,000 copies were illegaly pirated, then you did something very, very wong.  Maybe your game just isn't worth $50, if it's a $20 game, then very few are going to be willing to pay $50 for it.

If publishers would look inwards to figure out the root of piracy, they would end up profiting from it, not pissing off their customer base and losing even more money.  If there is a such a large demand for the games (as proven by aparently the millions upon millions of illegally pirated copies out there, which is the reason your game isn't selling), but it isn't selling, then you know that it's popular, and you're not off on the taste determinant of demand.

Tale:  If I steal a videogame from Gamestop or EB, I have deprived them of the ability to sell that game to someone else, so yes, it would be a clear-cut case of theft. 
However, if I'm not going to buy it anyways, and I'm depriving you of the ability to sell it to someone else, you havn't lost anything as a publisher/developer.
Trippy
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Reply #54 on: May 11, 2008, 03:58:09 AM

here's a question for you.

If I were to buy a copy of, say, Bioshock (since it's available) and decided that I wanted to play an unDRM'ed version of it, and so downloaded the cracked ISO and played that while my legitimately-bought copy sat in my shelf, unopened. What would you think of that?
I don't have a problem with it. To me if somebody is fucking with my legal rights (e.g. "fair use" and/or "first sale doctrine") I have no qualms about restoring them back.
Venkman
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Reply #55 on: May 11, 2008, 04:24:34 AM

The problem here isn't copy protection unto itself. It's that so far the copy protection systems have either sucked outright or only screwed those trying to use the system legit.

We don't have nearly this problem on consoles in the west because nobody tells MS and Sony what they're allowed to installed DRM-wise. Meanwhile, try any of that in Windows and there'll be rioting and Fox News special reports.

It's stealing. No amount of justification changes that. You're just not getting rundown. And you're not because the companies either don't want to take the time to bother, or have largely shifted over to the hardware where it doesn't happen to nearly the same degree. The rest are making online games with subscriptions or xtrans, for that call-home goodness in a different form.

I do agree with Nerf when he said on page one about calling it a rental rather than a purchase. DRM call-home isn't renting per se, but if you call the game a service then that opens up what you can do somewhat. Of course, the only people reading the EULAs are the lawyers that wrote their underlying boilerplates*, so you need some way to clearly tell consumers what's going on.

And you better damned well have some permanent DRM unlock in place for when your company goes bust or gets sold or gets bored with supporting that title.

* the rest are arguing with the Gamespot clerk because they're trying to return an opened MMO for which they didn't like the EULA they could only read after launching the game awesome, for real
Margalis
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Reply #56 on: May 11, 2008, 04:50:01 AM

People pirate. Deal with it or go out of business. Here you have people telling you exactly why they might pirate something. Try listening.

F13 is not composed of the people who pirate everything just because they are cheap bastards, it's composed of people who want to give you money. If you can't find a way to extract money out of them you're fucked.

You don't have the right to stay in business and nobody is compelled to buy what you produce. It seems that at some point the PC game industry simply forgot that the way to make money is to create products that people want to buy, instead of creating products that turn people off then berating them for not buying them enough.

Morality is a two-way street. If you sell me something and tell me I "own" it then I find out that it self-destructs after a while you've essentially stolen from me. I don't see any developers complaining about that. How exactly is it "moral" that I buy a product and I go back and play it two years later, the authentication server is down permanently and it no longer works? (Even though it has no online component) How is it "moral" that according to your EULA the software doesn't have to do anything at all, and can erase my whole computer with liability?

If your EULA says the software doesn't do anything why should I pay for it exactly? Can you imagine someone selling books with the disclaimer "may not contain words" or a TV set "not guaranteed to display video"?

Most EULAs are a total joke. If you want to talk about morals lets talk about those too.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
eldaec
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Reply #57 on: May 11, 2008, 04:54:30 AM

I'm still at a loss to understand how consumers are getting bent over by this.

Consumers are getting bent because of the privacy implications and the history of these tools putting hard to remove junk on PCs which screws up other functions (pretty much the same reason consumers get irritated by other forms of software virus).


As regards the stuff about why not everyone sees piracy as theft, that's because theft is the taking of someone else's property with the intent to permanently deprive them of the property, wheras software piracy is just fare dodging. Piracy is analogous to sneaking into the cinema because you don't like the fact that the bouncer punches everyone in the face as they queue to pay for a ticket. It is not analogous to stealing a physical object.

Doesn't stop it being illegal, doesn't make it ok, but this difference is why shrill protestations about pirates "stealing" EA's product don't have much impact on most people.


All that said, it's usually possible to find "third party" patches to turn off the DRM nonsense, so if the mechanism bothers you enough, there are morally legitimate ways to avoid the punch in the face, but still play the game.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2008, 05:19:19 AM by eldaec »

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Merusk
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Reply #58 on: May 11, 2008, 05:17:51 AM

I do agree with Nerf when he said on page one about calling it a rental rather than a purchase. DRM call-home isn't renting per se, but if you call the game a service then that opens up what you can do somewhat. Of course, the only people reading the EULAs are the lawyers that wrote their underlying boilerplates*, so you need some way to clearly tell consumers what's going on.

And you better damned well have some permanent DRM unlock in place for when your company goes bust or gets sold or gets bored with supporting that title.

I'd rather just not see the locks at all.  Even if you make available a digital unlock after the fact, there's no guarantee you'll be able to find it 5, or 15 years later.     I'm not obsessive enough to regularly create "patch disks" for all my games, and keep those disks along with the game disks.  Fuck, there's also no guarantee I'd be able to install off that media later. My latest computer doesn't have a floppy drive, so I had to get a 'pirate' version of Mater of Magic, despite having the disks for it.

As to the 'pirate' issue. You all are wasting breath trying to convince people who have long-since rationalized their criminal behavior.   Remember: "It's a crime if it happens to me, but not to a faceless bastard company!"   That's the mindset, so no examples or illustration is going to turn these guy's heads. 

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cironian
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Reply #59 on: May 11, 2008, 05:20:10 AM

I think EAs true intention here is to kill off (or at least seriously cripple) the second hand games channel. Whatever the exact limitations in their code might be, that wont stop a completely cracked image from appearing on the usual sites within hours.

However, with the limited installs, the resale value of the box drops dramatically as soon as it is opened. Especially since the buyer has no way of telling how many installs are left for the serial number. The only way to find out if it still works would be to install it, and that burns another install. At least with MMOs or Steam games you can sell the account info...
Ratman_tf
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Reply #60 on: May 11, 2008, 05:41:32 AM

And it's been brought up in the past - but why on earth a Steam-bought copy of Bioshock still has the 4-install limit applied to it is just a total head-scratcher.

DRM companies need to make money too.

I'm pretty sure at this point they have advocates that storm into the big game companies HQ's brandishing glossy full color pictures of aborted babies screaming "THIS IS YOUR GAME WITHOUT COPY PROTECTION! WHY DO YOU HATE BABIES?"

One of the features of software is that it is easily portable, easily copyable, and easily installed on multiple machines. Easily uninstalled and reinstalled. The publishers don't want us to have access to that feature because it makes piracy easy.

BUT

NO COPY PROTECTION TO DATE HAS PREVENTED PIRACY. None. Nada. Zilch. Zero. If you make video games, your game is going to get pirated.

The question put to you is this: Are you going to make your product unattractive to legitimate users in order to fail to prevent it being pirated?

Stardock's answer to that question is interesting.

Instead of asking how they can annoy and inconvenience legitimate users, maybe they should start asking how they can actually reduce piracy? (Hint: DRM is not the answer)
« Last Edit: May 11, 2008, 05:45:38 AM by Ratman_tf »



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Strazos
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Reply #61 on: May 11, 2008, 05:46:37 AM

You guys COULD buy the game, and Then crack it.

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Trippy
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Reply #62 on: May 11, 2008, 05:51:14 AM

Stardock's answer to that question is interesting.

Instead of asking how they can annoy and inconvenience legitimate users, maybe they should start asking how they can actually reduce piracy? (Hint: DRM is not the answer)
Stardock's answer is not interesting because they are selling a niche product to a niche audience. A more interesting example is what Epic does with their games. Those games are sold with copy protection but sometime after release they release a patch which removes it. Basically their strategy is to try and slow down piracy during the first few critical weeks of a game's release and then after that they don't worry about it anymore.

Edit: I should say it's not interesting in this discussion since the games we're talking about here have much larger markets than the Stardock titles do.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2008, 05:58:56 AM by Trippy »
Trippy
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Reply #63 on: May 11, 2008, 05:53:28 AM

As regards the stuff about why not everyone sees piracy as theft, that's because theft is the taking of someone else's property with the intent to permanently deprive them of the property, wheras software piracy is just fare dodging. Piracy is analogous to sneaking into the cinema because you don't like the fact that the bouncer punches everyone in the face as they queue to pay for a ticket. It is not analogous to stealing a physical object.
No your analogy doesn't work. To use your movie example software piracy would be the same as somebody stealing a copy of the film, making copies of that and then you getting one of those copies and watching it whenever and wherever you feel like. If you wanted to you could make copies of your copy of the film as well and give/sell it to people.
Ratman_tf
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Reply #64 on: May 11, 2008, 05:58:50 AM

You guys COULD buy the game, and Then crack it.

I actually had to do this with a Sims 2 expansion. The copy protection (arrr harrr harrr) made it so the game would no longer run on my computer. I had to use a crack to bypass the copy protection in order to play my legitimatley purchased copy of the game.

I THINK THAT'S IRONIC OR SOMETHING!  DRILLING AND MANLINESS



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Ratman_tf
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Reply #65 on: May 11, 2008, 06:03:22 AM

Edit: I should say it's not interesting in this discussion since the games we're talking about here have much larger markets than the Stardock titles do.

Quote
With over 12 million downloads on CNET’s Download.com, WindowBlinds is a utility that allows users to change the look and feel of the Windows desktop experience by applying skins to the user interface.

Is 12 million a niche?



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Trippy
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Reply #66 on: May 11, 2008, 06:10:55 AM

We're talking about video games here. Also 12 million downloads does not mean that 12 million people purchased a copy.
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Reply #67 on: May 11, 2008, 06:27:52 AM

I think EAs true intention here is to kill off (or at least seriously cripple) the second hand games channel. Whatever the exact limitations in their code might be, that wont stop a completely cracked image from appearing on the usual sites within hours.

QFT


Quote from: Trippy
No your analogy doesn't work. To use your movie example software piracy would be the same as somebody stealing a copy of the film, making copies of that and then you getting one of those copies and watching it whenever and wherever you feel like. If you wanted to you could make copies of your copy of the film as well and give/sell it to people.

Fair enough, but that still wouldn't be theft, merely non-payment of royalties, which in most cases is a civil issue rather than a criminal one.

But anyway, the resale issue would only really be significant if the DRM scheme impacted commercial scale pirates, which it doesn't.

It only really impacts resale of originals or friends sharing games.


Again, I'm not saying it makes piracy ok, I'm just saying it explains why people don't get excited about it.


"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
IainC
Developers
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Reply #68 on: May 11, 2008, 06:37:30 AM

Morality is a two-way street. If you sell me something and tell me I "own" it then I find out that it self-destructs after a while you've essentially stolen from me. I don't see any developers complaining about that. How exactly is it "moral" that I buy a product and I go back and play it two years later, the authentication server is down permanently and it no longer works? (Even though it has no online component) How is it "moral" that according to your EULA the software doesn't have to do anything at all, and can erase my whole computer with liability?

How is that functionally different to any other item you might purchase? If you buy a car you have a reasonable expectation that it will last you for a certain amount of use and after that it is likely to be unusable as parts wear out and are irreplaceable. Are manufacturers who build in obsolescence also stealing from you?

People are acting like the software industry are pioneering the field of selling you a limited licence but that isn't true. If you buy a car you are permitted to do what you like with the physical media of the car but you aren't given any licence to any of the IP or reproduction rights. Same with games, you buy a game and can dispose of the physical media as you like but your use of the IP is limited by the rights the publisher gives you. I agree that these should be explained up front pre-purchase so that consumers can make an informed choice about what they are getting for their money but in essence you've always only been buying a limited licence regardless of any DRM measures implemented.

Breaking the law because you disagree with the right of a company to determine how it licences its IP to a customer is not going to get the law changed.

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eldaec
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11839


Reply #69 on: May 11, 2008, 06:48:00 AM

How is that functionally different to any other item you might purchase? If you buy a car you have a reasonable expectation that it will last you for a certain amount of use and after that it is likely to be unusable as parts wear out and are irreplaceable. Are manufacturers who build in obsolescence also stealing from you?

I'm struggling to think of anyplace in the car industry or another manufacturing industry where active steps are taken build in obsolescence and people don't get reamed for it.


Most talk of built in obsolesce is tin foil hattery outside of IT industries.

Certainly car and other industries plan on the basis of releasing steady improvements over time, and thereby making old products obsolete. But actively putting a clock on number of uses a product has - or actively preventing it's resale? Well, not so much.


None of this legitimises piracy, but it does tell you why nobody is interested in listening to software firms cry about it.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
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