Ah heck, let's talk about EQ1

[Tale]

Magician was hard to get cause nobody wanted to go that far through the Plane of Sky/Air and then sit there and camp mobs until that piece finally dropped.

Surely that comes down to how the guild is run? Ours was focused on equipping members, to increase the power of the guild and progress further in the raiding game. It made tactical sense to get almost everyone their epics (until later loot surpassed epics for some classes), so we did those annoying bits because it brought us closer to being able to kill bigger bosses.

[Tebonas]

To get better Equipment to kill even bigger bosses.

Thats why I quit Everquest, not all those evil things SOE did, but the retardedness of the raid endgame.

[Tale]

To get better Equipment to kill even bigger bosses.

Thats why I quit Everquest, not all those evil things SOE did, but the retardedness of the raid endgame.

I was well aware we were getting equipment to kill bosses, to get even better equipment, to kill even bigger bosses, etc. That was where I wanted to go in EQ1 as an explorer type - the places I couldn't yet reach. It required me to behave like an achiever type though. I wasn't particularly good at that, so I was among the lesser tanks in the guild, but we were always going somewhere.

Again, being an Aussie-based guild in a non-instanced game probably added some motivation - our peak evening hours were the US early morning (pre-dawn) so as the dominant guild in our time zone we could go around killing everything that was up. The US guilds tried to keep respawns within their own hours and shut us out, but they couldn't keep it up. So there was also a kind of "PvE as PvP" motivation - Aussies vs Americans, and a smaller nation is always prouder to beat a bigger nation.

[Merusk]

You were on Trib, too, weren't you Tale? I know someone else was and I seem to remember it being you.

[krazyk]

Your experience was atypical.

Atypical in the sense we had enough foresight to plan shit? It was stupid to camp ragefire. He can be tracked from the spider area right before the fire giants. We set a tracker there, checked it periodically, and if he was up we called in our guild and raced to it. If we got there before others we won. Turns out when he spawned we were the only guild there, the dude who was camping it couldn't find any help. We did the same thing with the stupid green dragon for my friend's warrior epic. We put a lowbie on a separate account at the dragons spawn point, and if he died we knew the dragon was up, then port guild in and kill before anyone else. Did the same thing with my necro epic. I found out when the golems died in plane of fear, then I organized a raid to take them down when they spawned (they had a static 3 day spawn). I call that being smart, and being efficient with my time.

Seriously it was never the designers intentions for people to camp shit. I wish people would quit blaming the developers for their own sloppy play. If you camped shit (especially for days at a time) you were doing it wrong.

Honestly there was a lot of fun in EQ, but it seems like a lot of you who played it found every way possible to make it hard, or boring. How many of you ever crawled through a dungeon? That was how they were meant to be played and thats how me and my friends went through just about every dungeon. We did that at least once for every dungeon and it was fun as hell. If you sat at the docks in oasis and pulled crocs, and then south karana with aviaks, then onto the next shitpile outdoor zone to level then again you were doing it the most shitty way possible. You should have tried going to najena, or befallen, or sol a.

If you just tried to level as fast as you could, then get mad at every death then again thats your fault. Me, and my group of friends explored, took our time to level, made sure to see as much content as possible. We still leveled fast as hell though because we were actually in dungeons where the exp was better. We approached the game like a session of D&D. We crawled through dungeons, got some loot once in awhile, and had a blast kicking back, slamming mountain dews, while shooting the shit with each other in party chat or on special occassions I would even host EQ lan parties now that was fun as hell.

Now the whole point of my post here is to show the other side of the coin. To show how EQ was fun, and I feel bad for you guys that never got to experience it.

[HaemishM]

Your experience was atypical.

Atypical in the sense we had enough foresight to plan shit? It was stupid to camp ragefire. He can be tracked from the spider area right before the fire giants. We set a tracker there, checked it periodically, and if he was up we called in our guild and raced to it. If we got there before others we won. Turns out when he spawned we were the only guild there, the dude who was camping it couldn't find any help. We did the same thing with the stupid green dragon for my friend's warrior epic. We put a lowbie on a separate account at the dragons spawn point, and if he died we knew the dragon was up, then port guild in and kill before anyone else. Did the same thing with my necro epic. I found out when the golems died in plane of fear, then I organized a raid to take them down when they spawned (they had a static 3 day spawn). I call that being smart, and being efficient with my time.

Seriously it was never the designers intentions for people to camp shit. I wish people would quit blaming the developers for their own sloppy play. If you camped shit (especially for days at a time) you were doing it wrong.

And yet your ENTIRE explanation for how you got around the camping is that you metagamed the system with lowbie alts on separate accounts. You DID camp the fucking spawn, you just didn't do it with your active character. You were doing it wrong TOO.

The intention of the developers was that you wouldn't get so fucking obsessive about the epics that you camped everything. Clearly that was a delusion, because the game was tailor-made for obsessive compulsives.

Honestly there was a lot of fun in EQ, but it seems like a lot of you who played it found every way possible to make it hard, or boring.

See above. The game was built for obsessive compulsive behavior.

How many of you ever crawled through a dungeon? That was how they were meant to be played and thats how me and my friends went through just about every dungeon. We did that at least once for every dungeon and it was fun as hell. If you sat at the docks in oasis and pulled crocs, and then south karana with aviaks, then onto the next shitpile outdoor zone to level then again you were doing it the most shitty way possible. You should have tried going to najena, or befallen, or sol a.

I ran a sort-of casual guild. I made specific guild events that would gather groups for the sole purpose of crawling dungeons that most people didn't get to experience. I tried to lead my people away from the typical Guk or outdoor camps, because they really bored me to tears and they were overcrowded. Out of a 60-person or more guild, we would usually get enough people for 1 not-full group. It was easier and more efficient to find a spawn in a dungeon or outdoors and camp the shit out of it. And yes, it ruined the game for me (along with the lewt whoring).

But once the developers started tuning all the new content for raid-equipped groups with the release of the Kunark expansion, there was no going back. You either had to equip with medium to top end gear, or you were never going to see even normal dungeons in Kunark, much less raid content.

Now the whole point of my post here is to show the other side of the coin. To show how EQ was fun, and I feel bad for you guys that never got to experience it.

I did experience it, and I tried to make sure others experienced it too. I led server-wide initiatives to do dungeon crawls, and often got 30 to 40 people to turn out. I led an open dungeon crawl raid into Najena for anyone from levels 15-20 to join, as a sort of "early raid training" and had a blast. I did the same for Mistmoore in the 20's, and a few other dungeons that were less populated for the level ranges I was targeting. But the vast majority of the servers all geared towards camp/level/raid as fast and as efficiently as possible.

People wanted that easy camping experience, and part of that was the raiding gear requirements. The other part was the very punitivie death penalty which forced you into NOT DYING as the only means of decent progression.

[Merusk]

Your experience was atypical in that:

1) You didn't give a shit about who was in Fear when the next 3-day timer was up.  This kind of stuff got to vandetta-level shit quiclky like intentionally wiping another guild the next time they were in Fear, which wasn't hard.
2) You had enough folks on at any given moment to take-down a raid spawn.


I did the crawl thing many places. Befallen, Sol A, Mistmoore Castle, Karnor's, Plane of Innovation, Ssra Temple.  Hell, all of ToV could be called a Crawl since you "had" to do it that way.   It was fun, yes. It still wasn't a game I'd want to play again, now that I'm older and have other things required of my time.

[krazyk]

Good I am glad I am not the only person who got to experience crawling through the dungeons the way they were meant to be done.

You're right I suppose in a way we were camping stuff, but we never actively just sat there doing something boring waiting for a spawn thats insane.

As for the way my guild operated. The whole server operated on a might makes right basis. If you arrived first in force you got the mob. We had no rotations like other servers, and I think it worked out pretty good. Sometimes you lose, sometimes you win. When I led my fear raids there was noone else in the zone. I never steamrolled anyone. The rules were simple. If you got there first with a force that could take out the mob you got it. Sitting at a spawn by yourself that you can't kill by yourself gave you claim to jack shit on my server. Had I arrived to kill the golems and there was already a force there capable of taking them out we would have left.

[Tebonas]

Fuck might makes right. Up the ass. Until it bleeds. And dies from blood loss.

[HaemishM]

I was on a rotation server. I fought hard against and with other guilds to keep the rotations active because my guild and a lot of others would have been shit out of luck on raid content without rotations. Hell, we had to ally with 2 or 3 other guilds to actually do any raid content simply because we were casual about leveling speed and took anyone who wasn't a complete tool as a member.

What the rotations DID do positively is they allowed a lot more people to experience some decent raid content (that isn't an oxymoron) without having to suck uber elitist guild cock to do it. Unfortunately, the rotation tended to wear down to a nub anyone brave/stupid/unfortunate enough to have to keep track of it. It turned the fun of dungeon crawling and tactical execution of raid strategy into a science of tedious project management and social networking with OCD douchecunts.

[sam, an eggplant]

Heh, I remember the rotations. We had a website called something like rathecalendar.com where all the guilds planned out who would take each day in fear weeks in advance. Good lord that was some ridiculously stupid fucking shit.

[Mrbloodworth]

When i betad Vanguard it was like this. Walk all the way down to the bottom if a dungeon (cuse the 5 groups killed everything already), and wait in line.

Fun, and immersive.

[Stephen Zepp]

Couple of quick remarks:

As a Game Player

--it sounds as if all those complaining about the death penalty taking "hours/days/weeks" to recover from simply were either a) idiots who couldn't do risk vs reward assessments, or b) playing way beyond their characters level. I played an enchanter old school (back when even level mobs would kill you within 10 seconds or so depending on the zone), and I rarely died. Maybe I was just a better/more skilled player.

--epics: note the word--I'll type it again: epics. With the one exception of raid guilds and the cleric (and arguably enchanter pre-PoP), no one -had- to have their epics. Verant screwed up with the cleric epic and how it was required for raid wipe recoveries, but other than that, they were intended to take a long time, and not be something everyone had.

As a Game Developer

--I've mentioned this before, but not having some sort of death penalty that rewards those that play conservatively is like not having some form of travel cost--it limits, and in some cases destroys, mid- and end game mechanic availability. You can't not have a death penalty, or you get PvE griefers, "1 in a million chance" item campers, and quite a few others issues. Without a travel cost of some sort, you limit anything that is territory based, from area/region sovereignty to a viable location based free market economy, to siege warfare (look at how shadowbane worked--ONE stealth summoner could seed an entire raid force to attack in under 5 minutes).

--you can make a game to cater to the masses, or cater to the skilled. You can't do both reliably without severely restricting the game itself. WoW did an admirable job of trying to do both, but it has many core issues as well.

Just my thoughts, being an experienced EQ player from 1999 all the way through this year (off and on in some cases, I admit!).

[Fraeg]

Was a monk on Tallon zek pvp server

1) naked casters
2) item loot that hurt melee far more than casters
3) cross teamers = pvp immune healers
4) training zone lines
5) long ass run across the karanas(sp?)
6) zone plugging in pvp
7)  yeah i remember de-leveling
8) WTB a bind plz
9) endlessly practicing skills, I can remember the direction skill and not knowing where the fuck i was going because my compass skill or what not was too low.
10) The jungle/forest of Death outside of high pass keep/hold the one with the undead skelly warriors/captains that came out at night..... Holy shit that was by far the most evil zone i have seen in any mmo.  If you wanted to go from the west side of the continent to the east you simply had to pass through this zone, and if it was nightime oh god the pain.

despite that as my first mmo (i played UO less than a week), I have a lot of fond memories.

One thing i really enjoyed was the smack talk that would occur on the pvp servers. with chat open to everyone regardless of faction/race etc.  that made for some fun times.  I can understand why games have done away with it, but it was very satisfying to be able to send a tell to someone you just kiilled :)

[Mrbloodworth]

Couple of quick remarks:

As a Game Player

--it sounds as if all those complaining about the death penalty taking "hours/days/weeks" to recover from simply were either a) idiots who couldn't do risk vs reward assessments, or b) playing way beyond their characters level. I played an enchanter old school (back when even level mobs would kill you within 10 seconds or so depending on the zone), and I rarely died. Maybe I was just a better/more skilled player.

--epics: note the word--I'll type it again: epics. With the one exception of raid guilds and the cleric (and arguably enchanter pre-PoP), no one -had- to have their epics. Verant screwed up with the cleric epic and how it was required for raid wipe recoveries, but other than that, they were intended to take a long time, and not be something everyone had.

As a Game Developer

--I've mentioned this before, but not having some sort of death penalty that rewards those that play conservatively is like not having some form of travel cost--it limits, and in some cases destroys, mid- and end game mechanic availability. You can't not have a death penalty, or you get PvE griefers, "1 in a million chance" item campers, and quite a few others issues. Without a travel cost of some sort, you limit anything that is territory based, from area/region sovereignty to a viable location based free market economy, to siege warfare (look at how shadowbane worked--ONE stealth summoner could seed an entire raid force to attack in under 5 minutes).

--you can make a game to cater to the masses, or cater to the skilled. You can't do both reliably without severely restricting the game itself. WoW did an admirable job of trying to do both, but it has many core issues as well.

Just my thoughts, being an experienced EQ player from 1999 all the way through this year (off and on in some cases, I admit!).

All of this assumes people are competing against one another. Most people do not care that you have X armor and it took you X hours to do. Some of us play to have our own fun, and could really care less about competition between other players that, frankly, have no bearing on my enjoying the game (Except in games like EQ and Vanguard, see my other post in this thread).

This: no one -had- to have their epics.

Your right, and wrong IMO. Some people don't care (i'm going out on a limb here, and saying the majority.) Others do, and i think you did say this. But i dare to say, that breed of player is gone, or has grown up. BUT, i have never equated Time with Challenge. Implying that skilled = those with time to over come such cockblock, kinda makes me sad. Reading your thoughts on Epics, and the death penalty, and travel times basically implied this.

So, i think you are talking about a minority that like to compete against others in some sort of MMO fashion show (Barring the side affect of developers creating objects like the one you talk about in shadow bane, thats not the problem, its a side affect.). I think your first line in the "as a developer section" really only matter to this type of person. Everyone else just wants to have fun, play the game, and adventure with others ETC...


There is no reason, EVER for an accomplishment to take hours in one sitting. EVER. and i bet none can come up with a valid reason for it. The only people who would EVER do it, are people who want to compete VS. other players in "The uber fashion show" race..

Anyway... let the ripping apart begin. 

[Merusk]

Also.. you were an Enchanter, Stephen.  One of THE most imbalanced classes ever in any game.  Or did we alll just choose to forget that whole "holy trinity" and the times that Enchanters were soloing whole sets of Planes-Level spawns thanks to mez/ charm?

Not to mention Enchanter was the one class with almost all of the "OH SHIT" cards in regards to grouping. The only one they didn't have was Feign.  If a group with an enchanter died, he had critical resists or the group was in way, WAY over its head.  It was quite different from being a warrior wandering around and getting wtfpwnd by a green mob, or a mage who could distract with the pet and run for the hills.

[Venkman]

To get better Equipment to kill even bigger bosses.

Name a diku that isn't this exact model. They're all about getting better in order to become more efficient about getting better.

-it sounds as if all those complaining about the death penalty taking "hours/days/weeks" to recover from simply were either a) idiots who couldn't do risk vs reward assessments, or b) playing way beyond their characters level.

I'd maybe agree if EQ1 did anywhere near an adequate job of telling you what you had a reasonable chance again and you were rewarded with meaningful advancement at greater frequency. EQ1 went too far into the land of "don't try anything even questionable" and only improved at later levels when players were conditioned into thinking "don't try anything risky without a Cleric with clickstick and a 'chanter".

Or, said another way: WoW with EQ1's death penalty still wouldn't be as sadistically punitive as EQ1 was.

[Numtini]

Or did we alll just choose to forget that whole "holy trinity"

I'd say one in ten gamers knows that the holy trinity was tank/heal/CC and not tank/heal/dps.

[HaemishM]

Your right, and wrong IMO. Some people don't care (i'm going out on a limb here, and saying the majority.)

As a former guild leader of a pretty casual, fun-focused guild, I would say it WAS the majority, at least of those who hit level 40 or higher.

[Triforcer]

On the subject of wandering rare supermobs, I read somewhere (far too lazy to find) that WAR plans to bring this back in a limited fashion.  I believe the example was a newbie area where a cave complex has a tunnel leading to a small room empty almost all the time.  Using a varying combination of static and randomized spawns, a powerful vampire might spawn there and have a trophy (char. decoration, no stats) or a quest.  This is to encourage veterans to explore all areas while avoiding the Son of Arugal problem. 

[Tale]

You were on Trib, too, weren't you Tale? I know someone else was and I seem to remember it being you.

Yes. You can also blame me for the other Aussies being on Tribunal - I suggested it.

In 1999, before web messageboards took off, there was an Aussie EQ mailing list called EQOZ. We were spread across all servers and there was nobody to group with in our time zone. There was a small Aussie guild on Tarew Marr called Southern Legion and some wanted to unite there, but that meant abandoning lots of levels to start at level 1 in a guild where others were already in the 30s and 40s. I pointed out there was a new server called Tribunal where we would all be equal, and we had a vote ...

The Tarew Marr Southern Legion guys knew how to make a guild, so SL was born on Tribunal, based purely on nationality/time zone, with more than 200 members by Christmas 1999 (and me as a strict asshole officer trying to police guildchat spam). Eventually our level 50s joined a raiding alliance, then started raiding themselves, got sick of having to discuss loot rules with people who were still level 20, and split to form Aurora Noctum as a "STFU and raid" guild.

[Azazel]

Bullshit. In the long term, you decide to play the game based on whether it's a good game or not. It can have a tough or weak death penalty and still be a good game.

EQ1 was at its best during the era when they completely ignored the bitching on the forums. I left when they started changing the game in response to the message boards. If you're a professional game designer, it's because you're good at designing games - you should trust your instincts, not those of the players. I want to play what you think up, not what my peers want.

A vast community of whiners is probably a sign of a healthy game. It means people are playing and being challenged.

What a load of steaming shit. Especially that last paragraph I didn't bother quoting. I expect better from you of all people than such blatant e-peen measuring.

EQ in terms of the system was at it's best when Brad et al were long gone, and the designers had fucking alienated the majority of the playerbase with GoD and decided to react by making the game far less punitive and fucked up in the expansion that followed. Unfortunately, it was too late as WoW and EQ2 came along and decimated EQ1 a few months later.

EQ the experience was at it's best when I was a newbie, playing with my friends in an entirely new kind of game - a computer 3-d Dungeons and Dragons where you jumped on whenever you like, explored a huge world, didn't need a GM and so forth. If WoW was my first game, I'd probably feel the exact same way about it.

EQ1 was the best thing going for a long time, in spite of the harsh death penalty and other bullshit like that, not because of it.

[Xilren's Twin]

We put a lowbie on a separate account at the dragons spawn point, and if he died we knew the dragon was up, then port guild in and kill before anyone else. Did the same thing with my necro epic. I found out when the golems died in plane of fear, then I organized a raid to take them down when they spawned (they had a static 3 day spawn). I call that being smart, and being efficient with my time.

No offense but I hardly think paying for an extra account as a way to work around to an intentional limiting game design should ever be considered a good thing, whether it's this or RvR spying in DAoC.

Seriously it was never the designers intentions for people to camp shit. I wish people would quit blaming the developers for their own sloppy play. If you camped shit (especially for days at a time) you were doing it wrong.

Actually, i agree with this to a point.  I dont think the developers had any idea how many people would in face, camp for not only hours but DAYS just to get whatever items was considered a must have.  But, the reason why so many of these items were considered must haves that people were willing to camp for was due to trying to lessen other punishing designs factors in the game.  i.e. JBoots for travelling speed that didnt suck, rez sticks so death penalties and raid wipes were bearable, Rubicite, FBSS, SSoY, etc etc  I think once people figured out how much of a difference equipment made in EQ, they started justifying the most insanse behavior to get it because at the end of the day, i think most players did enjoy EQ, they just wanted to lessen the painful parts to enjoy it more.

[Ratman_tf]

Everquest was a clownshoes example of what was "intended" versus what actually happened in the game. The disconnect from reality was simply amazing.

[WindupAtheist]

All you guys who were playing EQ instead of UO (yes even the ganky pre-Tram game) are cockmunchers responsible for ruining the genre.  That is all.

 

[Tebonas]

Well, I started with UO, but it was not really fun being ganked and killed the minute you step out of town and getting taunted with "Everybody has a rune to escape that situation, noob."

The Sociopaths in EQ had to rely on more indirect measures to ruin your day. And it started later (I guess starting in not so populated Halas helped some). So maybe you should direct your anger towards people who think it should be fun being their victim.

Everquest was a clownshoes example of what was "intended" versus what actually happened in the game. The disconnect from reality was simply amazing.

Thats why I always say the players ruined the game for themself. No sane person could anticipate what lengths players would go to to achieve the ridiculous goals and epeen contests they set for themself. It was in concept a roleplaying world, and we made a skinner box out of it because we liked the shiny and the ding sound too much.

[Azazel]

Everquest was a clownshoes example of what was "intended" versus what actually happened in the game. The disconnect from reality was simply amazing.

Yeah. Not only things like Alchemy working as intended, but things like Kiting, FD pulling and so forth that were unintended and nerfed repeatedly before the devs eventually just gave up and realised that some shit was out of their control, and later embraced the game as it had evolved rather then fighting the playerbase every step of the way.

[Tale]

All you guys who were playing EQ instead of UO (yes even the ganky pre-Tram game) are cockmunchers responsible for ruining the genre.  That is all.
 

Also WoW Blood Elves rule. Anyone who played EQ is an old nerd like Gary Gygax. He's dead. AC is for Armor Class, there's no game called Asheron's Call. AO stands for Adults Only. UO must be Marvel Universe Online without a Spiderman license?

MUD! Yeah, mud wrestling is oldschool, from when they used to drink beer and get stoned.

[WindupAtheist]

Well, I started with UO, but it was not really fun being ganked and killed the minute you step out of town...

I have it on good authority that all you needed to do was L2P and STFU, newb.

OH GOD WHAT HAVE I BECOME?!

So maybe you should direct your anger towards people who think it should be fun being their victim.

You're right, I should probably make a thread about that someday.   

[Azazel]

Also WoW Blood Elves rule. Anyone who played EQ is an old nerd like Gary Gygax. He's dead. AC is for Armor Class, there's no game called Asheron's Call. AO stands for Adults Only. UO must be Marvel Universe Online without a Spiderman license?

MUD! Yeah, mud wrestling is oldschool, from when they used to drink beer and get stoned.

Been drinking tonight? Nice rant, but it doesn't make much sense...

[Tale]

Been drinking tonight? Nice rant, but it doesn't make much sense...

I was just emphasising how irrelevant we and this thread are in the face of 10 million+.

But yeah.

[Dtrain]

Shameful confession time:

I met my girlfriend on EQ 

And we were previously members of competing uber-guilds 

This was us: http://www.fohguild.org/forums/retard-rickshaw/4416-gm-grog-what-fuck-shit.html 

[Venkman]

The thread in that link is the very essence of why instancing was conceived and is now the standard.

You can want players to police themselves. And heck, some of them even will. But you can't expect all of them to. And all things being equal in a game, power goes to who gets there first and/or griefs the best.

[Ratman_tf]

Thats why I always say the players ruined the game for themself. No sane person could anticipate what lengths players would go to to achieve the ridiculous goals and epeen contests they set for themself. It was in concept a roleplaying world, and we made a skinner box out of it because we liked the shiny and the ding sound too much.

Well, shit. As an old D&D grognard, I could see that Everquest wasn't about role playing and adventure. It was about dinging and gratzing. The only mechanics that existed were ones that made combat and advancement happen. Tradeskills were anemic and "the world" consisted of polygons and reputation tracking.

If you provide a baseball field, baseball bats, and baseballs, it's kind of nutty to expect people to then play poker.

[Tebonas]

In this case the players realized its easier to club the other team over the head with the baseball bats.