honor grind inc... someone shoot me

[Zetor]

You can trinket cyclone, yeah. Also, if you're already bubbled, you are immune to cyclone, so if your reflexes/ping are good, you can pre-bubble right when you see the enemy druid cast it on you.

That said, there are few more helpless healers than a pally who's used their bubble... :P


-- Z.

[Dren]

You can trinket cyclone, yeah. Also, if you're already bubbled, you are immune to cyclone, so if your reflexes/ping are good, you can pre-bubble right when you see the enemy druid cast it on you.

That said, there are few more helpless healers than a pally who's used their bubble... :P


-- Z.

Exactly.  I did my 2v2 last night and felt this straight up.  I've found I can do quite well in the first 15-20 seconds of the fight.  If we haven't downed one of the other team players by that point, we're through.  I can stretch it out longer if the other team is dumb enough to not CC me somehow. 

Anyway, I found that our losses were mostly due to me being too conservative with my trinket and bubble.  The reason?  I know that once I blow both of those, it is only a matter of time and luck.  If I can hang onto my "escapes" long enough, we have a much better chance at winning.

I also figured out that if I lend a hand at the initial DPS push on one target, we are much more successful.  So, I start by stunning the healer and then dumping my two holy burst damage powers on the target kill right away.  Then I go into healer mode for the next 10 seconds or so until my timers are back up.  I can lock out the healer and add around 3-4k damage to the target.  If my partner keeps his damage up, this usually gets a win.  Luck plays a big role due to getting a cc off late or the target resisting a spell or two.

[RUiN 427]

Pro tip: Turn off the party/battleground chat channel when joining AV. 

It makes the games really quite fun and more battle-ish.

you ever have one of those flawless Av's where no one says anything in chat, because they know exactly what to do and where to g and they do it perfectly, resulting in a 10 minute game? god i love those

maybe turning of the chat will help... great idea

[Xanthippe]

you ever have one of those flawless Av's where no one says anything in chat, because they know exactly what to do and where to g and they do it perfectly, resulting in a 10 minute game? god i love those

10 minute AVs are perfect games?

Those are races to the finish to see who can take objectives quickest with few or no defenders on the other side.  Perfect for honor farmers, sure.  For those of us who actually like to do battle with the enemy - you know, engage in the pvp portion of the pvp battlegrounds - I wouldn't call them "perfect" games.

Perfect games are games where I have fun.  Fun is that thing that too many WoW players have forgotten how to have, because they're too busy working at their objective - whether it's honor farming, raid farming, rep farming or resource farming.

Bring back classic AV.

[Merusk]

Perfect games are games where I have fun.  Fun is that thing that too many WoW mmo players have forgotten how to have, because they're too busy working at their objective - whether it's honor farming, raid farming, rep farming or resource farming.

I adjusted your quote, since this isn't an exclusively WOW problem.  It's linked to the Achiever mindset/ setup of the games, and starts at the devs, who hold the same mindset.  The funny thing is when it breaks-down to exactly this in the endgame, the devs act surprised that people are min/maxing and gaming their systems.  It hasn't been set-up to be anything BUT that.  It's not likely to for a while, either.  The devs interested in 'fun' moved on to consoles a long time ago.

[stray]

This may be simplifying it a bit, but I think achievers have gotten too old for games (devs and players alike). Totally missing the fucking point.

[Oban]

Care to expound on that?  I find your idea interesting but have been unable to find your newsletter.

[RUiN 427]

you ever have one of those flawless Av's where no one says anything in chat, because they know exactly what to do and where to g and they do it perfectly, resulting in a 10 minute game? god i love those

10 minute AVs are perfect games?

Those are races to the finish to see who can take objectives quickest with few or no defenders on the other side.  Perfect for honor farmers, sure.  For those of us who actually like to do battle with the enemy - you know, engage in the pvp portion of the pvp battlegrounds - I wouldn't call them "perfect" games.

Perfect games are games where I have fun.  Fun is that thing that too many WoW players have forgotten how to have, because they're too busy working at their objective - whether it's honor farming, raid farming, rep farming or resource farming.

Bring back classic AV.

i think you missed the title of the thread...

[stray]

Care to expound on that?  I find your idea interesting but have been unable to find your newsletter.

I don't have time to expound on it in detail (it could get very convoluted...hell, even this short bit might), but my point comes down to... umm.. well... some people have been indoctrinated so much with ideals about success, production, efficiency, being goal oriented, etc.. by the time that they're adults, that they forget to just stop and smell the roses. They lose their sense of adventure and fun if it dominates their life too much. It's bad that people like this are playing games... Even worse that the fuckers are designing them. They should develop anti-virus software or something. Anything else, please. Because they are not right for the job.

I mean... Spreadsheeting video games? Come. The. Fuck. On. That says it all right there.

Eh, perhaps I'll better articulate in another thread in the future. Sounds like I'm just ranting right now.

[Dren]

Are you saying spreadsheets aren't fun?

You are wrong sir.  Just plain wrong.

I have a spreadsheet up right now that proves it in fine detail.

Feel the powah of the charts!

[stray]

One more thing..

If not adulthood, then I might just blame it on the fact that RPG's are very number and character building oriented in general. As opposed to other games, which are generally level and puzzle oriented.

NOT that all RPG's are bad though. The numbers game is well hidden behind the scenes -- whether it's crpg or pnp, it's wrapped in an engaging story and adventure -- and that encourages players to just stop and smell the roses, like they should. Rarely do I see people trying to maximize effiency in a single player RPG too much.

MMORPG's, on the other hand, do not have story. And they have fuck for presentation. And they rarely place a player in exciting enough circumstances to engage them just on those things alone. They just don't. Especially by modern gaming standards. So it's no wonder that some people start focusing on the numbers instead, on their character's effiency, on getting this or that uber loot, on getting some title next to their name. It's all pretty sad really. Maybe players like this can be excused.

The developers are still on the shitlist though.

[Fordel]

Perfect games are games where I have fun.  Fun is that thing that too many WoW players have forgotten how to have, because they're too busy working at their objective - whether it's honor farming, raid farming, rep farming or resource farming.

Bring back classic AV.

Well one thing to remember with WoW PvP in particular, is since it's so heavily geared based, you *can't* have 'fun' until you've done your base minimum pvp grind to get the baseline gear, so you're something more then a HonourPoint Pinata. So the 10 AV game becomes fun, since it brings you closer to the potential for actual 'fun' in the PvP game. DaoC suffered from this issue as well. As do most Gear based PvP games do.


Is that in itself fucked up game design? In almost every way. Eventually, enough people just stop trying to deal with it and quit, either the PvP system or the entire game itself if there isn't anything else to do. (IE: See ToA for DaoC  )


But really, a classic six hour AV isn't fun when everyone around you is in Season 1 or better while your in AH Greens and Dungeon Blues.

"Which area of the map can I be two shot in now?  "

[Ingmar]

One more thing..

If not adulthood, then I might just blame it on the fact that RPG's are very number and character building oriented in general. As opposed to other games, which are generally level and puzzle oriented.

NOT that all RPG's are bad though. The numbers game is well hidden behind the scenes -- whether it's crpg or pnp, it's wrapped in an engaging story and adventure -- and that encourages players to just stop and smell the roses, like they should. Rarely do I see people trying to maximize effiency in a single player RPG too much.

MMORPG's, on the other hand, do not have story. And they have fuck for presentation. And they rarely place a player in exciting enough circumstances to engage them just on those things alone. They just don't. Especially by modern gaming standards. So it's no wonder that some people start focusing on the numbers instead, on their character's effiency, on getting this or that uber loot, on getting some title next to their name. It's all pretty sad really. Maybe players like this can be excused.

The developers are still on the shitlist though.

The problem I have with this theory (more your previous post than this one) is that there are new players - young ones, old ones - joining the MMO world all the time, and most of them don't have all this "achiever" baggage. Despite that, WoW seems to attract and *retain* them. Doesn't that clearly mean that they're fundamentally doing something very right with their design?

[Register]

One more thing..

If not adulthood, then I might just blame it on the fact that RPG's are very number and character building oriented in general. As opposed to other games, which are generally level and puzzle oriented.

NOT that all RPG's are bad though. The numbers game is well hidden behind the scenes -- whether it's crpg or pnp, it's wrapped in an engaging story and adventure -- and that encourages players to just stop and smell the roses, like they should. Rarely do I see people trying to maximize effiency in a single player RPG too much.

MMORPG's, on the other hand, do not have story. And they have fuck for presentation. And they rarely place a player in exciting enough circumstances to engage them just on those things alone. They just don't. Especially by modern gaming standards. So it's no wonder that some people start focusing on the numbers instead, on their character's effiency, on getting this or that uber loot, on getting some title next to their name. It's all pretty sad really. Maybe players like this can be excused.

The developers are still on the shitlist though.

I don't think its the lack of story and presentation that leads to gear fixation.

In single player games, you are the single player - there is no other person to compare to. All content is available for you to access regardless of your gear.

In WOW (or insert random MMORPG), you are one of the many - and very often it is the gear that sets one apart. Raiding guilds often recruit based on player's gear - if you don't have epic gear, you ain't qualified to get better epic gear. No raiding guild membership = no chance to visit epic raiding zones.

And then you have the PVP angle, where you get matched against players with gear - and you get eaten if your gear sucks. And you spend most of your time in BGs waiting to rez at the spirit healer or riding to your next death...

It doesn't matter if you start with a blank slate - the game soon hammers the message into to you - Gear is very important...

[RUiN 427]

hey Stray,,, your avatar is epic... GONZ!

[stray]

 

[slog]

Well one thing to remember with WoW PvP in particular, is since it's so heavily geared based, you *can't* have 'fun' until you've done your base minimum pvp grind to get the baseline gear, so you're something more then a HonourPoint Pinata. So the 10 AV game becomes fun, since it brings you closer to the potential for actual 'fun' in the PvP game. DaoC suffered from this issue as well. As do most Gear based PvP games do.

I don't agree.  I've been doing 2v2 with a Rogue who hit 70 3 days ago and we won more Arena matches than we lost.

[Zetor]

Not all classes are equally gear dependent. Rogues can get away with low resilience (in fact, most high-end rogues use mostly pve gear for better damage) due to how crazy Cheat Death is when combined with the usual rogue toolkit of Vanish / COS / SStep / sprint / prep / etc. 2-dps gib teams like shadowpriest/warlock can do fairly well with high damage low resilience gear, too (well, at least until the 1800s).

The only REALLY gear-dependent classes / combos in 2v2 are healer+dps... but 2v2 is a bit atypical. In any other arena (3v3 or 5v5), having low resilience is a huge liability (unless you're a paladin or maybe a rogue). If the enemy team figures out that "hey doods, that warrior only has 20 resil and 8k hp", they can just train him and either gib him in a few seconds, or force healers to blow all cooldowns and mana frantically trying to keep him up (putting the entire team on the defensive), THEN gank him. :p


-- Z.

[slog]

Not all classes are equally gear dependent. Rogues can get away with low resilience (in fact, most high-end rogues use mostly pve gear for better damage) due to how crazy Cheat Death is when combined with the usual rogue toolkit of Vanish / COS / SStep / sprint / prep / etc. 2-dps gib teams like shadowpriest/warlock can do fairly well with high damage low resilience gear, too (well, at least until the 1800s).

The only REALLY gear-dependent classes / combos in 2v2 are healer+dps... but 2v2 is a bit atypical. In any other arena (3v3 or 5v5), having low resilience is a huge liability (unless you're a paladin or maybe a rogue). If the enemy team figures out that "hey doods, that warrior only has 20 resil and 8k hp", they can just train him and either gib him in a few seconds, or force healers to blow all cooldowns and mana frantically trying to keep him up (putting the entire team on the defensive), THEN gank him. :p


-- Z.

Ok.  The point still stands. 

[Phred]

One more thing..

If not adulthood, then I might just blame it on the fact that RPG's are very number and character building oriented in general. As opposed to other games, which are generally level and puzzle oriented.

NOT that all RPG's are bad though. The numbers game is well hidden behind the scenes -- whether it's crpg or pnp, it's wrapped in an engaging story and adventure -- and that encourages players to just stop and smell the roses, like they should. Rarely do I see people trying to maximize effiency in a single player RPG too much.

MMORPG's, on the other hand, do not have story. And they have fuck for presentation. And they rarely place a player in exciting enough circumstances to engage them just on those things alone. They just don't. Especially by modern gaming standards. So it's no wonder that some people start focusing on the numbers instead, on their character's effiency, on getting this or that uber loot, on getting some title next to their name. It's all pretty sad really. Maybe players like this can be excused.

The developers are still on the shitlist though.

The problem I have with this theory (more your previous post than this one) is that there are new players - young ones, old ones - joining the MMO world all the time, and most of them don't have all this "achiever" baggage. Despite that, WoW seems to attract and *retain* them. Doesn't that clearly mean that they're fundamentally doing something very right with their design?

Don't these players come from the modern  education system? Don't they have parents? I don't think you can blame achievers on WoW. People are indoctrinated with the achiever mindset from the minute they start school.

[Calantus]

DO NOT BUY THE BLUE 2 MINUTE TRINKET!!!!!

There's a purple one in the next mini patch (2.4.2) with 45 resil.  It will be 40k honor, so start saving now.

Are you joking?  Forty thousand honor points for twenty-five more resilience?  That's more than half the cost of a full suit of S1 armor... Are people seriously considering buying this thing?  What am I not seeing here?

It's purple.

I'm not even joking, if it was exactly the same as the blue one I'd still buy it.

[Calantus]

Yeah, no joke.  What really gets up my nose are those "better a quick loss than a protracted win" jackasses.  I've captured Stonehearth Bunker about eight million damn times, call me crazy for wanting to actually fight someone in a battleground once in a while.

Meh. I'm a quick-game guy. There's plenty of fighting either way, but I don't want to spend 45 minutes in a protracted shitty battleground when loss is inevitable. Giive me a quick win, a quick loss, or better yet, a hard-fought even game. None of this turtle-to-lose bullshit.

I'm a "just lose it" guy too but with the same caveat: I don't mind a long game, I just hate a pointlessly long game. For example, Horde are steamrolling us in AB and are constantly 4.5 caps but some chucklefuck alliance dickhead keeps ninja'ing a node. We aren't going to win. All they're doing is making the game a couple minutes longer. Just accept the loss and move on. Another example is WSG. The flags are 2/0 against us and both flags are being held. Nobody is attacking the enemy flag carrier in any co-ordinated fashion so we'll never get our flag back... just lose. Stop fighting and lose, either play in a way that can win or just stop playing. So many people think that slowing the loss is a good thing, but "losing slower" is not the way I want to play. You want to pick up your game and turn the game around? Sure, I'm all for that. I'd love nothing more than to crawl back to victory if that's a possability. Just don't slow the game down with pointless bullshit and expect me not to tell you to give up already.

[Xanthippe]

I'm a "just lose it" guy too but with the same caveat: I don't mind a long game, I just hate a pointlessly long game. For example, Horde are steamrolling us in AB and are constantly 4.5 caps but some chucklefuck alliance dickhead keeps ninja'ing a node. We aren't going to win. All they're doing is making the game a couple minutes longer. Just accept the loss and move on. Another example is WSG. The flags are 2/0 against us and both flags are being held. Nobody is attacking the enemy flag carrier in any co-ordinated fashion so we'll never get our flag back... just lose. Stop fighting and lose, either play in a way that can win or just stop playing. So many people think that slowing the loss is a good thing, but "losing slower" is not the way I want to play. You want to pick up your game and turn the game around? Sure, I'm all for that. I'd love nothing more than to crawl back to victory if that's a possability. Just don't slow the game down with pointless bullshit and expect me not to tell you to give up already.

I don't mind a quick loss.  I do mind people complaining within 15 minutes in AV about a turtle because every single person rushed to RH without bothering to cap a gy on the way, so everyone ends up back at SP due to Horde playing a little bit of D.