Second Shadowbane expansion available

[HaemishM]

It is unrestricted PvP. It's just not without consequence. It seems that your definition of unrestricted would = no consequences. Griefing abounds in that atmosphere. ;)

PvP should not have any artificial consequences outside of loosing any given battle and failing your goal associated with that battle. You are probably talking about killing unwilling or helpless player or PKing.  PKing should not be possible in well-designed PvP game since nobody should be entirely helpless and nobody unwilling should be forced to PvP, unless you are talking unwilling to face risks associated with PvP rewards. Ether way your response about L2 clearly shows me that ether PvP is afterthought there or you don’t know what you are talking about. I personally wouldn’t know since I can’t stand the grind for long enough to get to the point where you get to PvP.

In a game with levels, like Shadowbane or L2, there is no way to achieve the type of PVP you speak of. It requires that new characters have a one-on-one chance against veterans. No game has this, other than maybe old school UO.

PKing is entirely possible in every single MMOG that allows PVP out there, according to your definition.

[Threash]

What more consequence do you want than being able to hunt down and kill whoever killed you? If you kill someone there is always a consequence, they dont like you. Consequence does not mean "instant revenge", it does not mean if i kill you im automatically at a disavantage. Unrestricted pvp means i can kill you and you can kill me, anything other than that just gets in the way of pure pvp.

Yes, and consequences get in the way of unrestricted car theft, too. You know, there is unrestricted PvP in real life, too. You can walk over and attack your neighbor if you so choose. But there are consequences. If we view it the other way, we can say it is restricted because there are laws that say you go to jail if you do it. That would still be a consequence of an action. Foreknowledge of it means that you have a choice of whether you want to face those consequences or not. Either way, it's the same. It states that it is unlawful.

So I think the issue here is not whether PvP is unrestricted or not, but whether unrestricted means a lawful state or chaotic state. I will concede the definition to you that unrestricted would mean no stipulations, no restraints, no conditions. Therefore, we can not definitively call L2 PvP unrestricted.

Why don't you see unrestricted PvP? Because the games are trying to emulate some level of societal involvement and player accountability. Do you really believe someone could be held accountable in an unrestricted PvP environment? Or is it just that you don't want to be held accountable since it is an escape from real life? If that's what you want, Unreal Tournament has fantastic, unrestricted PvP. Probably the best. And there are many other games like it. But that's a cheap shot.

So we're looking for a virtual world with unrestricted PvP then? An MMOG with it? Can we say SB has it? Possibly at times. Honestly, I doubt any dev is going to bother with true unrestricted PvP because it has been done by other games and from the looks of it, many MMOG devs are trying to create a virtual world with their games as well. And let's face it, people are inherently evil, selfish pricks. To think that players would not use an unrestricted PvP environment just to harass others is foolish. Granted, perhaps only those who enjoy doing that to each other would be attracted to it.

And not to get muddled in terminology, but a quick note on PK. This was another term bastardized over the years. Back in my MUD days, it was used to classify a MUD that had PvP combat. Instead they simply called PvP, PK. Player Killing. It's what happens when a Player vs. Player encounter ends. One kills the other. Now, perhaps some MUDs turned it into a term meaning a griefer, but not the ones I played and administered. Ah well, the more I write, the more there is to pick apart so I'm done now.

What you are missing here is that there ALWAYS are consequences wether they are hard coded to the game or not.  What you want is a system where the game automatically penalizes you for killing someone (keyword:game, you dont respawn in rl thats why the penalties are a bit more severe :P), i want a game where the person i killed has to come back and penalize me himself.  Killing other people should be the point of the game, adding hard coded penalties to punish those who do this goes against everything a pvp game should strive for.  There ARE consequences to killing people in Shadowbane, they can make your guild KoS, they can destroy your cities, they can make life hell for you if they so wish, and if you want you can do it right back to them.  All this without silly rules to punish those who dare to do what you are supposed to be doing in the first place.

[sinij]

In a game with levels, like Shadowbane or L2, there is no way to achieve the type of PVP you speak of. It requires that new characters have a one-on-one chance against veterans. No game has this, other than maybe old school UO.

PKing is entirely possible in every single MMOG that allows PVP out there, according to your definition.

Not to defend SB in this regard since it is very unfriendly to newbies, but new player will always tend to loose to veteran even if everything else is equal. Only solution I can see that would work is to artificially separate new players from established player base until they learn the ropes. Again with regards to SB, if you play it correctly you should join a guild right off newbie island and in that situation you are not PKed, you lost PvP battle.

[Soukyan]

What you are missing here is that there ALWAYS are consequences wether they are hard coded to the game or not.  What you want is a system where the game automatically penalizes you for killing someone (keyword:game, you dont respawn in rl thats why the penalties are a bit more severe :P), i want a game where the person i killed has to come back and penalize me himself.  Killing other people should be the point of the game, adding hard coded penalties to punish those who do this goes against everything a pvp game should strive for.  There ARE consequences to killing people in Shadowbane, they can make your guild KoS, they can destroy your cities, they can make life hell for you if they so wish, and if you want you can do it right back to them.  All this without silly rules to punish those who dare to do what you are supposed to be doing in the first place.

Most of what you stated there is your opinion about what a PvP game should strive to be. And that's fine, but it is just that. An opinion. It's unfortunate, but what will end up happening is that someday, someone will design a game as you described from the ground up. Until then, players will just bitch about PvP implementations. I've given up looking for answers to it because we will never see everybody agree on how it should be done, or "the right way". The best we can hope for is a niche game that caters to the vision you have (which, by the way, is multiplayer FPS ;).

[sinij]

Originally Wolfpack quoted 50K subscriptions to generate positive cash flow, now SB is run by UBI and this number might be a bit lower due to brining support costs 'in-house' and absorbing publishing costs for expansions.  According to SirBruce SB peaked at 50K subscriptions with current number of subscribers unknown. Comparing number of active players at peak hour I’d guess that total number of active accounts fell to somewhere around 25-27K accounts before big round of cancellations around SB expansion's and WoW/GW beta times and further to 20-22K presently. All of this suggests that SB is currently very close to loosing money. This could mean possible immediate cancellation or elimination of all future development and eventual cancellation due to lack of interest.

[doubleplus]

Originally Wolfpack quoted 50K subscriptions to generate positive cash flow, now SB is run by UBI and this number might be a bit lower due to brining support costs 'in-house' and absorbing publishing costs for expansions.  According to SirBruce SB peaked at 50K subscriptions with current number of subscribers unknown. Comparing number of active players at peak hour I’d guess that total number of active accounts fell to somewhere around 25-27K accounts before big round of cancellations around SB expansion's and WoW/GW beta times and further to 20-22K presently. All of this suggests that SB is currently very close to loosing money. This could mean possible immediate cancellation or elimination of all future development and eventual cancellation due to lack of interest.

Call me crazy, but who develops an entire expansion for a game "very close to loosing" money? Last ditch efforts are only done by stupid people so it's either doing better than you thinking or Ubi is-- oh, shit.

[TheInsider]

Originally Wolfpack quoted 50K subscriptions to generate positive cash flow, now SB is run by UBI and this number might be a bit lower due to brining support costs 'in-house' and absorbing publishing costs for expansions.  According to SirBruce SB peaked at 50K subscriptions with current number of subscribers unknown. Comparing number of active players at peak hour I’d guess that total number of active accounts fell to somewhere around 25-27K accounts before big round of cancellations around SB expansion's and WoW/GW beta times and further to 20-22K presently. All of this suggests that SB is currently very close to loosing money. This could mean possible immediate cancellation or elimination of all future development and eventual cancellation due to lack of interest.

You're wrong.  Shadowbane peaked much higher than 50k subscribers.

Also numbers in game in no way compares to active accounts.  Many people take a break from the game yet leave their accounts active.  This seems to be happening recently with SB and all of the new games coming out.  I expect a surge in SB with the release of their expansion.

While your estimate of 50k subscriptions may seem accurate to the naked eye, you're way off target.  It peaked much higher.




-The Insider

[SirBruce]

I had a source that gave a number that was higher for the peak (I would have to dig it up, I think it was like 68,000, 72,000, somewhere like that) and then it fell back down after that, but I could never confirm the number so I never used it.  Whatever the peak was, it is far less now.

Bruce

[TheInsider]

Well I have a source as well inside UBI that tells me the accounts peaked close to 90k at release, possibly slightly higher.

Ironically, SB's accounts currently are on the rise.  It's true a lot aren't playing cause of all  the new games (halo 2, wow, eq2 , etc), but they're also not cancelling.  This is why I expect a surge in their ingame populations with the new expansion.  New game hype will be dying down, and they will have their best expansion yet, in my opinion.

[SirBruce]

Yeah, well, tell your source to talk to me.  Until then, it's unlikely to show up on the chart. :)

Bruce

[sidereal]

I expect a surge in SB with the release of their expansion.

  What makes me think 'expect' is a synonym for 'hope', here?  I smell partiality.

[TheInsider]

My source doesn't want to let anything out so I don't think he will but I'll see.  Only reason I corrected sinij is because I hate to see people pass around false information as fact, it just bugs me especially when you know the opposite to be true.

And sidereal, I won't lie I like SB's concept although I hate its technical problems and think it's one of the most innovative mmorpgs that has come out in the past 2 years.

But anyone that has been following mmorpgs for any decent length of time also knows that expansions boost account numbers, at least temporarily if nothing else so it's only common sense.  So yeah I do "expect" the numbers to rise more when the expansion hits, like any other mmorpg that releases an expansion.

[sinij]

 Only reason I corrected sinij is because I hate to see people pass around false information as fact, it just bugs me especially when you know the opposite to be true.

What part of my posts that specifically mentions in multiple places that all information is guess and estimates you got confused with "pass around false information as fact" ?  Simple fact that every large guild that I know, including guild that I belong to, moved on from SB should make you question subscription numbers and claims like "SB accounts currently are on the rise". That and there is no reason to keep account active in SB if you do not plan to play - there is no time lost for veteran rewards or house that will collapse if you cancel.

To me you sound like PR guy trying to do damage mitigation - it is of no use right now, as a player you ether like concept or don’t and if you don’t you won’t try the game and if you like concept and frequent this web site by now you tried it and made up your opinion about it. Inflating numbers and trying to portray servers as anything but empty will not gain you any subscribers. If you want to get people back playing, and hopefully paying for SB, talk to the guild leaders and beg, bribe, plead, threaten, whatnot them to give SB another try. If guilds come back to SB so will everybody else.

[Shannow]

Call me crazy, but who develops an entire expansion for a game "very close to loosing" money? .

These guys do.

[Shockeye]

Here's a nice little review of Throne of Oblivion that should make everyone rush to re-sub.

The user interface is still clunky, sieges will still make you lag, PVE is still boring, customer service is still in the pit, Entropy players still don't have the resolution they want, and your server is still empty. The important issues have been completely overlooked. I personally won't be paying for Throne of Oblivion.

[Righ]

The user interface is still clunky, sieges will still make you lag, PVE is still boring, customer service is still in the pit, Entropy players still don't have the resolution they want, and your server is still empty.

That sounds like Shadowbane. Entropy players should buy better graphics cards, however.

[stray]

No doubt I loved this game. It's still my favorite mmog to date, but just as with everyone else, that wasn't enough for me to put up with the technical problems. If they provide the game and both expansions in a Trial though, I'll give it another shot.