WoW v EQ2

[Resvrgam]

Well now that I’ve finally been able to play both Betas, it’s painfully obvious which title would have my monthly subscription if I bothered to invest into one of these two products:

World of Warcraft:  Some claim this game is targeted toward the Battle.Net crowd while others feel it’s designed to recapture the magic lost from the original EverQuest.  The quality of aesthetics may be a matter of artistic preference but the intuitive interface and game-play design is unquestionably, the easiest to pick up and play.  The categories below describe each game’s facet as I’ve found them through the eyes of the “uninitiated.”  These categories have been ranked with a scale of 1-5 (1 being horrible while 5 being Amazing):

Graphics (3): Upon initial start-up, the graphics struck me as very dated and akin to a colourful Quake 3 engine-made game of the late 1990s.  The models possessed a very low polycount and the textures were very blurry in many areas.  Within the first hour however, the graphics became less of a concern as the other aspects of the game more than made up for them (more on that later).  Despite the horribly dithered palettes that were visible within the sky box and the complete lack of polygonal detail, the “cartoon” aesthetic was pulled off rather well and wasn’t a complete eyesore when ran at high resolutions with FSAA (anti-aliasing) enabled.  The Metzen/Samwise touch was very apparent within this game’s overall look and feel and my personal artistic preferences leaned toward it.  A major flaw in this system however, is that it may not weather the years as well as products with higher polycounts and more details as its competitors.  

Performance (5):  As was the case with EQ2, I was given a glimpse of an unfinished product and thus I can only pass judgment on what I have experienced at this point.  To my surprise, WoW ran exceptionally well on my system* with nary a hiccup even though I was participating in a Stress Test designed to overload the servers and intentionally make the game run poorly.  All settings were set to the maximum and the display was forced into an 8xFSAA.  My average frame rate teetered between 35 -70 FPS depending on the graphical traffic imposed by additional characters within the scene.  I did experience a few lag spikes within day 8 or 9 but the overall performance was as smooth as silk (very surprising for an internet-based game).

Sound Effects/Ambience (5): The mood established by the audio tracks within this game is very impressive.  It fully makes up for the limitations of the graphics by creating an immersive atmosphere full of vibrant tones and effects.  Each locale within the world was given its own distinct palette of audio cues.  Players will know where they are simply by the beautifully designed atmosphere established by the background sound effects.  From the eerie song of the evening-peepers in Darkshore to the calming bustle with distant church bells of Stormwind, players are treated to a feast for the ears.  I was also impressed with the small library of audible emotes available to players.  When tacked onto to existing actions, these vocal sound-bites added a nice touch to situations (“Attack!” My Night-Elfin Ranger exclaimed while his pet Nighsabre charged into battle).  My only regret is the complete lack of audio from any Non-Playing Characters' library of scripts.  It would have been nice to hear the reams of richly detailed lines instead of reading them.    

Music (4):  Music adds a great deal to the impact of an experience and WoW was happy to deliver.  I couldn’t help but shake the feeling that I had already heard many of the tracks from the Lord of the Rings movies but it was still a welcomed addition to the game.  The title screen’s epic score sets a great mood for the entire motif and the choral elements were very nice in some of the other tracks.  My biggest problem was that there simply wasn’t enough music to be spread around.  The songs that chimed in were randomly interspersed within the game and had no real relevance.  If the songs were prompted by certain events, the music would have had a more visceral impact instead of the confusion it inspired.  The clips also seemed to chime in and cut out with such erratic frequency that it became somewhat disheartening and felt “incomplete.”  Perhaps the developers are only using them as placeholders until a full score has been established?  In the meantime, it’s great music…just poorly implemented.

Game-Play (4): This is where WoW shines.  The very intuitive interface coupled with the fast-paced action of combat and other game mechanics will make those who seek instant gratification salivate with satiation.  The game played more like a single-player title and there was no need consult a tome of uninteresting literature in order to understand the game’s basic systems.  Many MMOG veterans have complained about the game’s accelerated progression through levels but I found it to be on par for the course and quite enjoyable.  The myriad of quests players are deluged with brilliantly disguises the grind inherent with these types of games and most won’t notice the treadmill they’re on or even care.  The addition of Player vs. Player combat was also a welcomed touch and added to the sense of a world at war.  Since neither side may communicate with one another, players are free to act as distant sentries for their kingdom’s borders when enemy units cross into their territory.  For those who do not wish to engage in combat with player-controlled opponents, an interesting flag system has been implemented to protect those who do not wish to fight.  Players are given the option to proclaim themselves soldiers of their faction and may “go aggressive” against the other faction’s units.  This act flags them as targets for other Players to engage and lasts for a short duration after acts of war have been made.  So far, the system has been great to separate those who wish to battle other players from those who were content with battling the AI-driven bots of the world.      

Social Aspect (3): As the test wore on, I found myself more and more inclined to chat with the others within the game.  The ubiquitous “WTS X Item” and “LFG to kill X Monster” were littering the dialogue boxes but I found that many of the people within the game weren’t veterans of the genre and actually took the time to sit back and chat instead of trying to optimize their pursuit of the glass ceiling.  It was a refreshing change of pace from many of the other MMOGs I have tested/played and I enjoyed the fact that the game wasn’t targeted as a power-levelers’ haven.  The casual approach was welcoming to those who didn’t have 8+ hours a day to invest into the game and it opened the door to people who wouldn’t otherwise play these games due to their time demands.   The flipside of this was the game’s lack of compelling reasons to group.  The few occasions I found myself grouping with other players left me confused as to the relevance.  Most of the quests I was issued could be completed on my own (which I had no problem with) and the more complex quests that forced me to rely on fellow players for support, seemed less rewarding.  In the more crowded areas, I constantly found myself being Camp-Stolen and desperately needing instanced zones to complete monster-hunting quests.  

Fun-Factor (4): With all that WoW had to offer, I really enjoyed my stay in Azeroth and am looking forward to the Open Beta and possibly the retail product.  I approached this title no expectations and left pleasantly surprised.  With Blizzard being a new-comer to the MMOG genre, it was refreshing to see their contributions that transcended some of the more established paradigms.  With a selective PvP system, zone-less travel and an audience not fully invested in just the grind, WoW has proven to be a great contender for this next wave of MMOGs.  The Quests were straight forward and a pleasure to participate in and the “go dance around and kill a few thousand monsters in order to even attempt the quest” attitude was not present.  If the enjoyment is projected to be short-lived, who cares?  I’m more concerned with what is fun now and not how long the fun will last.

Longevity (3) – MAY CHANGE:  Though this game may keep me interested beyond the first 30 days,  I can’t help but forecast that the game wouldn’t last more than a few months on my hard drive.  To remedy this, Blizzard had best keep on top of the expansions and production of new content because I won’t “create fun for myself” when I’m paying them a monthly fee to do so.  If the course isn’t added to or changed, the game would last no longer than a single-player game on my system and be promptly cancelled upon “completion.”   This may not be the case but only time will tell.

EverQuest 2: The sequel of one of the most popular and best selling MMOGs in North America, EQ2 is set to “attract those who left the original because they were no longer interested in it.”  With expansions and a graphical overhaul already planned for the original, it’s perplexing to see what SOE’s business strategies were with this product.  Is it simply a way for SOE to cut its losses with a now dwindling franchise or has lightning struck twice with this powerful computer-demanding sequel?

Graphics (4): What can I say? High-Poly character models and Pixel-Shaders galore.  The terrain and atmosphere is breathtaking and the views feel more realistic than artistic.  It was very clear that SOE was aiming to try and create realism with their new graphics engine and, for the most part, has accomplished that with their beautiful vistas and water effects.  
  Now on to the rest of the content: the character models appear out of place in this world and only look like realistic action-figures instead of people.  Their plastic “hair-caps,” which look terrible to say the least, completely destroy whatever realism the high-poly body models attempted to create and the uniform appearance of every character is painfully obvious after the first 20 or so clones of yourself you come across.  To its credit, WoW also suffered from a lack of character options but Blizzard did not promote their system as “Photorealistic Characters (with) Unparalleled Customization” as SOE has stated.  
  The uninspiring artistic technique feels like a disorganized “wouldn’t it be cool if we chucked one of these in?!” approach instead of an artistic vision of a great artist’s design.  More polys do not make great graphics.  Clothing is reminiscent of the ancient roman “wet” look by their conforming to every feature as if they were made of spandex two sizes too small.  There are also some serious collision problems with quite a few of the outfits in this game. Legs and arms poke through the ugly robes and dresses the characters are forced to wear and some collisions aren’t even clothing related.  After viewing the impressive list of emotes (of which none possess any audible bites), I discovered that the “applause” social-emote appeared more like an impersonation of a bird shadow puppet due to poorly setup motion-capture calibration.  Characters’ hands would pass through their heads and weapons float upside down and several inches away from waists when they are not in use.  
   I find myself thoroughly unimpressed with these graphics and perhaps it was the fact that I have seen many of the latest first-person shooter games’ graphics that are on par or better than EQ2’s offerings or that I am a graphic artist as well and know many of the shortcuts taken to create this game.  For the ungodly high system requirements needed play this game at acceptable frame rates, I expected more.  

Performance (2): This was one of EQ2’s biggest strikes against it.  It was clear that WoW was further along in their development stages than EQ2 due to the abundance of crashes, server lag and graphical glitches found throughout the game.  The sad part was, even through all of those issues, the game still ran like a snail on a saltlick when I lowered the graphical settings to make the aesthetics appear ugly and equal to WoW’s.  
  The boasftul claims of this game being designed for future hardware that’s never been tested with is laugh inducing.  I could have made a model within the Quake 3 engine that contained a few million polys and when it choked a system, explain that the game is designed for “future hardware.”  It is a poor design to make an engine not perform well with today’s hardware.  The sad fact of the matter is: this engine isn’t designed very well or with performance in mind.  Models are rendered beneath clothing and Level-of-Detail (LOD) models do not transition very well to their higher poly counterparts (hair disappears, clothing changes colours, etc). If the screenshot graphics were what the game looked like when performing at comparable levels as games released recently (Doom3, Farcry, etc), it would have been understandable but with the awful performance levels and dumbed-down details needed for play, this product just feels sloppy.  
   In defense of the “But MMOGs aren’t FPS games and can have 100+ people on the screen!” one must keep in mind that LOD meshes could compensate for that and what’s the excuse of why the game runs so poorly when there’s only a few people on the screen?  My average frame rate was 10-35 FPS with my current system* and I have seen the count drop into the single digits when in certain zones as well as combat with group members.  

Sound Effects/Ambience (3):  EQ2 has some of the greatest atmosphere I have had the pleasure to listen to but has some of the most annoying sound effects as well.  To begin with; what’s with the extremely loud footsteps?  It sounds as if a 300 lb. person in combat boots is sprinting through gravel.  The combat sound effects were nice but were varied enough and became very annoying.  Characters sound as if they just endured un-anesthetized groin surgery when they jump and attack.  There’s only so man “HAHs!” and “OWs!” I can bear listening to when they all sound exactly the same.  Combat starts to sound less like a battle and more like a mish-mash of “HAHs!” and metal strikes.  
  The voice-overs were a new edition to this genre but have been received with mixed results.  Some of the dialogue is delivered very well while some of it sounds like an amateur reading from a napkin.  I think this may be in part because the actual script is so poorly written in some places.  Qeynos dialogue comes of as cheesy and embarrassing to those of us not into musicals or Barney the Purple Dinosaur.  Still, having to listen to speech instead of reading thousands of lines of script is a nice change.  I just wish the content of the speech was a little better and not a repetitious as it is.  I grew tired of listening to merchants bellowing the same lines over and over and the “quest-giver” NPCs vomiting up the most uninspiring lines I have ever heard in any game since the “all your base are belong to us” days.  
  Who cares if Count Dooku and Fellicity Shagwell are voicing characters in this game?  Most players will probably end up disabling or ignoring the voices after a few hours of hearing the same lines regurgitated over and over anyways.      

Music (4): When the game loaded I was certain I had heard that score somewhere before.  After about 3 hours of playing, it suddenly dawned on me how similar it sounds to the old “Amazing Stories” intro of the mid-1980s.  
   The music felt fitting and added an impact to the encounters within the game.  When battles were initiated, an urgent score interrupted the mellow loops of a zone’s background music and returned when combat ceased.  The lack of choral arrangements was a bit disappointing but the orchestral presence was appreciated.    

Game-Play (2): Is there a game in this grind?  If there is, I can’t find it.  How this design was ever passed-off as a game is a mystery to me.  Players are issued uninspiring quests that leave much to be desired.  The “Here’s a quest but you’ll need to go grind a few hundred monsters for hours on end before you can even start it” attitude saturates this product.  Where WoW’s experience was gained through the quests, EQ2’s experience points are more of a requirement for the quests.  Mandatory grouping is enforced or certain early quests are simply impossible to complete.  
   My biggest gripe is; despite the Sesame-Street-like tutorial, the game’s mechanics aren’t even fully explained.  The entire game is based on the implicit premise that you’ve already played the original EverQuest and are familiar with its system.  The combat wheel was never explained in any of the narrations nor was it even covered in the “help” system conveniently placed in the EQ2 Start-Menu.  
   Combat was reduced to hitting a single button and watching your character whack –a-mob until it (or your character) died.  There was no strategy of multiple maneuvers nor were characters allowed to try different tactics as found in WoW (opened with a stunning blow and followed by a “Damage over Time” attack and concluded with a Powerful Blow…and looped until a victor arises).  Characters may only function as one piece of the combat equation and, when they’re alone, it’s obvious that the rest of the pieces are missing.  

Social Aspect (3): Player1233 says out of character: “WTS X item” and “Wanna go Kill X MOB” littered the dialogue and everyone seemed intent on racing toward the level-cap without any regard for the people around them.  This is what ruins MMOGs and, because EQ2’s systems are almost 100% identical to its 6-year old predecessor, it seems to only attract what ruined the original.
  Nobody wanted to talk, help out or discuss the game.  It was all about the grind and who was further along the treadmill.  Grouping (which is enforced) felt like a chore and made me race through the dialogue because my group members grew impatient while waiting for me.  I also found it frustrating to endure the “Heroic Opportunities” because it was never explained and my party members became irate when I kept messing it up.  After disbanding several times because everyone in the groups wanted to get experience points as fast as possible, I found that the solo game was nearly non-existent.  

Fun-Factor (2):  I’ve had more fun playing Flash games on web-pages.  When the effects of the aesthetics wear off and players are confronted with the true nature of the game, it becomes blatantly obvious that this product is designed with trying to addict players with a dangling virtual carrot that can never be reached.  “Level 1 sucks?  Well level 10 is more fun!  Level 10 sucks? Well Level 30 is where the game starts to be fun!”  Maybe I’m not just susceptible to the “slot-machine principle?”  
   Whatever the case, this game held nothing for those who weren’t already established fans of the original LevelQuest.  For those seeking a compelling product that charges a monthly fee, you’d be better off elsewhere.
   
Longevity (4): This game would not last past day 3 of the free 30-day trial that comes bundled with the retail version.  The grind that was attempted to be hidden in WoW is embellished in EQ2 and, as a result, will only keep people interested who already enjoyed the grind of the original.  For those fans of the original LevelQuest, get set for another few years of the same grind in prettier packaging…but you’ll need a new computer to enjoy it.

Conclusion: Neither game is a “Next Generation” MMOG and have their fair share of reasons for not getting my monthly subscription.  I enjoyed WoW’s design but was turned off by its graphical limitations and, on the other side, I enjoyed the nifty pixel-shaders and high polycounts of EQ2 but was turned off by the horrible implementation and downright laughable (lack of) game-play.  If WoW was to possess the level of graphical detail EQ2 attempted to pull off, there may have been a more compelling product for me to spend money on monthly.  I’d avoid both products until you’ve tried them for yourself.  This review was simply meant as input from someone not biased by either company or previous title experience.

[geldonyetich]

With "Open Beta Signups Soon", we should get another good look at World of Warcraft before making any lasting decisions.

I'm somewhat torn.  

On one end, I've got EQ2 and Planetside under the same cushy $21.95/mo SOE pass.   EQ2 is a solid MMORPG, granted somewhat in the mold of the original EQ, but I liked FFXI so I guess that isn't damning enough in itself.

On the other end, I've got World of Warcraft.   Blizzard made a fairly interesting MMORPG.   While the style is good, EQ2 overpowers WoW's graphic engine in terms of what it's capable of - for example, clothing of vast difference and high polygonial count.   More importantly, however, is the gameplay.   World of Warcraft gains a great deal of points because they have actively endeavored to make every class play differently, including actively adding unique game mechanics to many of them.   Conversely, Everquest 2 has taken steps to make every class play more the same, by giving them all a variety of special moves that pull from the same power bar.     However, Everquest 2 redeems itself somewhat due to the heroic oppertunity system.

It'll be a close battle.   My current suspicion is will it come down to MMORPG player retention.   Oddly enough, I didn't feel I had really found my niche in World of Warcraft as well as Everquest 2.   Perhaps that's a personal failing on my part, or perhaps this is due to World of Warcraft's poor socialization mechanic.    However, without this compelling sense of purpose, combined with a subscription based plan, it could prove World of Warcraft's ultimate undoing.   Then again, it's not like City of Heroes is out of buisiness... apparently there's a niche within MMORPGs for players who don't like MMORPG level socialization.

[AcidCat]

Nice writeup Resvrgam, that was an enjoyable read.

[Toast]

Fuggit.
Just buy them both. It's only money. Hopefully the releases will be staggered by a couple of months to accomodate the burnout period of the first one to come out (apparently EQ2).

In the end, I'll roll with the one that most of my old online friends are playing. Then, I'll burn out and go back to Battlefield 1942.

[geldonyetich]

Nice writeup Resvrgam, that was an enjoyable read.

Enjoyable, but overlooking one major detail:

Re: EQ2

Combat was reduced to hitting a single button and watching your character whack –a-mob until it (or your character) died. There was no strategy of multiple maneuvers nor were characters allowed to try different tactics as found in WoW (opened with a stunning blow and followed by a “Damage over Time” attack and concluded with a Powerful Blow…and looped until a victor arises).
...
I also found it frustrating to endure the “Heroic Opportunities” because it was never explained and my party members became irate when I kept messing it up.

It's funny how much one's opinion of the game can change because you miss out on one major aspect of the combat.    While I can see fault in Everquest 2 that you couldn't find how Heroic Oppertunities work, I can also see fault in your review of EQ2's combat dynamics that you missed the one and only thing that makes Everquest 2's combat interesting (heroic oppertunities).

Heroic Oppertunities work like this:  

Certain moves of yours can open up a chance to perform a heroic oppertunity against the mob.   What'll happen is this little dial shows up on right side with an icon.   You need to match this icon with one from your special moves in order to advance the heroic oppertunities.    Once you complete your heroic oppertunity chain, some special effect for that particular heroic oppertunity will go off.  Such as extra damage, a kind of debuff is landed, or a special kind of damage shield, ect.   It's a fairly interesting mixxed bag and interesting because it's not always just extra damage.

If you don't know the icons, try getting details on your special moves by right clicking on them on the hotbar and selecting "details" or whatever the equivilent word is.   EQ2 recently made it ludicrisly easy by actually causing the appropriate moves to glow on your hot bar when they'll sync up.   In time, you'll learn all the different combinations and effects.   In groups, you'll even get a different set of group heroic oppertunities that crop up.  

Do I find EQ2's combat mechanic better than WoW's?  Well, it's different.   The Heroic Oppertunities are very nearly Final Fantasy XI renkai in sophistication and the fun that they add, but are somewhat dumbed down and overly available so that casual players can find and use them.   WoW, on the other hand, has gone as far as to create different combat mechanics for some (though not all) of the different classes - but it doesn't have any group combination attacks like FFXI/EQ2 does at all.

If you think that's a different way of doing combat, wait until you see The Matrix Online's.   However, I'll not elaborate til they lift the NDA.

[Rasix]

Heroic opportunities can stay in EQ2.  Seriously, screw that entire idea.  In a group I don't want to worry about hitting my jumping-super-headbutt after Bill's flying-sword-chop so Jim can finish off the monster by casting summon-pie thus invoking mega-ultra-hyper combo 2.  

I'd rather have group dynamics and intelligent play dictate the outcome of a battle rather than some DDR, hit-the-flashie crap. Watching my fighter shoot lightning out of his hands after hitting taunt made me sigh a heavy sigh.

[El Gallo]

HO is way too "arcadey" for a MMOG.  It just feels corny as hell.

[Glamdring]

I moved a couple of months ago and finally got my cable modem up and running.  Great timing, eh?

I'm buying WoW and it has nothing to do with WoW vs. EQ2 for me.  It pretty much just boils down to the fact that I have yet to play a Blizzard game that I did not enjoy and I expect WoW to deliver in the same fashion.  I'm well past the days where I buy an MMOG with any delusion that I will be playing the game for more than a few months and have very little doubt that WoW will be an exception.

I think a lot of you probably share the same sentiment about the genre in general.  We're all a lot older than we were when UO came out and our time is a lot more valuable to us.  I'll never be able to play a MMOG for more than an hour or so every day or two ever again.  SOE may have made EQ2 more casual friendly than EQ but I seriously doubt it and honestly don't care to give them $50 to find out.

(I'm glad to be back.  I think I'm to the point where I enjoy reading forums like F13/WT more than actually playing the games we discuss.)

[jpark]

Resvrgam - Nice write-up.  It struck me as pretty balanced (however most folks in our world feel that unless you come up neutral on a topic you are ergo biased).

I actually don't mind the down time because of the "talking" it can encourage.  But I was disappointed that in EQII this did not have quite the community effect I am used to.  Opposite to this your points about WOW in this regard suprised me.

Again thanks for your thoughtful review.

[geldonyetich]

HO is way too "arcadey" for a MMOG. It just feels corny as hell.

Lots of new MMORPGs are getting pretty arcady these days, either following CoH's lead or just because technology is reaching that point.  I think EQ2's Heroic Oppertunity system somewhat less arcady than some of the mechanics behind some of the classes in WoW.   (For example, the Rogue's "combo" system, which I enjoy.)

Resvrgam - Nice write-up. It struck me as pretty balanced (however most folks in our world feel that unless you come up neutral on a topic you are ergo biased).

Bah, are ye trying to get my goat?  I just pointed out there was a major hole in his EQ2 review where he didn't understand or use Heroic Oppertunites.   They're not really all that hard, either.   It's a bit like trying to play World of Warcraft without understanding how your class works outside of basic autoattack and casting functionality.

But aside from that, I'll agree it was a nice writeup.

[AcidCat]

I can also see fault in your review of EQ2's combat dynamics that you missed the one and only thing that makes Everquest 2's combat interesting (heroic oppertunities).

If Heroic Opportunities are what the game is relying on to make the combat fun, it really falls flat. Eh, I'm sure it probably becomes more critical at higher levels, but I never found FFXI's skillchains to be all that exciting either, it just seemed kind of an artificial way to increase your involvement in combat - sure it makes you pay more attention, but did that mean combat was more FUN because of it? Or was it just one extra thing to worry about?

[geldonyetich]

Well, involving combat is good.   Too many MMORPGs expect you to just hit autoattack and wait while your character's stats do all the work, a situation where you're not playing the game, the game is playing you.   So that's probably why I think interaction, and any 'artificial' means they go about achieving it, is crackerjack.

[Resvrgam]

Well, I managed to find out how to use the "Herioic Opportunities" by consulting a 3rd-party, online source on how it works.  

Ok... How is this anything new?  It's like playing FFXI's system with single-digit frame rates.

It boggles my mind how EQ2 was even passed off as a game at all.  It took me 3 tries (playing through the game until level 7 and then deleting/restarting) to finally figure out how things worked.  When this time came, the system wasn't compelling enough to keep my interest. If I end up uninstalling a Beta, that's usually not a good thing.  

Do people really find "quests" of "Go talk to this schlep in Zone X because I'm too lazy/dumb to do it myself" and "Collect X amount of baubles from X Monsters" tasks fun?  I know it got really boring for me after the 3rd or 4th time doing it (with the same character).

MMOGs really need to get out of this rutt before they end up losing more subscribers disillusioned by the uninspired designs that currently plague them.

[Trippy]

HOs have many problems.

The first one is the effect you get is a weighted random pick out of a set of 3, with one effect being "common", another one "uncommon" and the last one "rare". This means you won't always get the effect you need most when you trigger the start of an HO. A Scout can "reroll" which effect will get triggered but again since it's random you won't necessarily get what you want. I've been in combats as a Scout where I've gotten the uncommon self-buff 4 times in a row (with rerolling) when all I really wanted was the common high damage attack. As an newbie Enchanter you can really screw yourself with HOs since the uncommon effect is an AE attack which will break any mezzes you might have cast.

The next problem is that you can start an HO that you have no way of finishing. You then have to use a combat art or spell to clear the chain from the screen or wait a long time for it to time out before you can attempt to start a new HO. This is a constant problem as a Scout since the Sneak Attack combat art will start an HO that a solo Scout has no way of advancing, at least at lower levels.

The third problem is that solo encounters are designed so that you have to use HOs to be able to solo effectively, which isn't usually a problem for soloers (things like mez breaking aside) but it is for groups because HOs are hard to pull off properly in groups. People get so used to just spamming the keys to pull off solo HOs that in groups they often wipe out each other's HOs before they have a chance to complete (as implied above certain combat arts and spells that advance a chain will also clear it when used at the wrong time). Now if everybody in the group was using TeamSpeak or other Internet voice program this wouldn't be so much of a problem but obviously in pickup groups this ain't going to happen. Even if you were able to perform HOs as a group consistenly, you've reduced the combat effectiveness of the group by a huge amount. E.g. think about a group with 6 fighters. By themselevs these fighters can solo, say, yellows. As a group, though, it would be much more difficult for these 6 fighters to take on 6 mobs that conned yellow when solo (con levels change when you group which is another odd aspect of the game) because you can only have one HO up at a time for the entire group where if they were all soloing side by side they would each have their own HO so their damage output is drastically reduced when fighting as a group. SOE should've implemented a separate group combat wheel that group members can trigger and advance but doesn't interfere with the individual combat wheel and vice versa.

[Kageru]

The beauty of a MMORPG is that it represents a world. Swinging a sword, casting a spell add to the feeling of interaction. Swinging a sword such that it knocks the creature off balance and makes it vulnerable to the rogues attack is a nice representation of complex combat tactics the game can't represent directly.

Having a little meta-game pop over the top of `reality', forcing a sequence of actions that are illogical in context and that produce an effect that is entirely disconnected from the chain is just idiotic. The only possible justification being that the game is so incredibly dull that any diversion makes the experience less tedious. The fact that the other mechanics, such as the healer being forced to heal at a regular frequency, make HO completion impossible at higher levels I actually consider a mitigating circumstance.

[ahoythematey]

The beauty of a MMORPG is that it represents a world. Swinging a sword, casting a spell add to the feeling of interaction. Swinging a sword such that it knocks the creature off balance and makes it vulnerable to the rogues attack is a nice representation of complex combat tactics the game can't represent directly.

Supposedly, D&D online is going to support that kind of strategery.  It is, however, Turbine at the helm.

[Margalis]

The element of randomness sounds retarded. At least in FFXI there are set chains and you have to do a bit of planning as far as party formation, weapon use, type of enemy, is it better to save up or just go now already, etc etc....

HO to me sounds like this:

A number will appear on screen. You then have to press that number on your keyoard. If you do that X times in a row, a random good effect will happpen!

Is it really that different from what I wrote above?

How about adding some *strategy* and decision making to combat, rather than random button presses?

[Merusk]

because you can only have one HO up at a time for the entire group

Crap, that's just asanine.  A priest can set-up a HO just by healing themselves. So at the time you might MOST need one (the healer is getting beat-on) you've got the healer fucking it up because they're trying to stay alive.

Classic.

[Trippy]

HO to me sounds like this:

A number will appear on screen. You then have to press that number on your keyoard. If you do that X times in a row, a random good effect will happpen!

Is it really that different from what I wrote above?

At low levels, yes. As you get more combat arts and spells you will have more choices.

Here are some screenshots to try and show how this works at low levels (sorry about the dark shots, it was night time when I did this).

Combat Wheel 01
Combat Wheel 02
Combat Wheel 03
Combat Wheel 04
Combat Wheel 05
Combat Wheel 06
Combat Wheel 07

And here's an explanation of what's going on:

Combat Wheel 01
Here I've begun a starter chain by initiating a Sneak Attack (Alt-2 on toolbar which is now greyed out). The green cloak in the center of that "disc" is the "stealth" attribute of the Sneak Attack I just did. The two icons at the bottom are the HO attributes that can be used to continue the chain. Every combat art and spell has an HO attribute.

Combat Wheel 02
Here I've broken the starter chain by doing a Dirty Tricks (3 on toolbar) because, well, I have nothing that can continue a stealth starter chain at my level.

Combat Wheel 03
Now I've started a new starter chain by doing a Quick Strike (2 on toolbar). This one has a ton of attributes that can continue the chain (one of the advantages of a Scout). At my level any of my combat arts with the green sword icon can start a starter chain. Those are Quick Strike, Ringing Blow (5 on toolbar) or Piercing Shriek (6 on toolbar). Typically I use Quick Strike since it's fast to execute and rarely misses.

Combat Wheel 04
Here I've brought up the combat wheel by doing a Cheap Shot (4 on the toolbar) which has the coin attribute, which, if you look on the previous screenshot, is one of the attributes that can be used to continue the Quick Strike starter chain. At the bottom of the wheel we can see that if we complete it, we'll get the Ringing Blow Heroic Opportunity. To complete it all I need to do is execute a combat art with that green sword icon. Also notice how there's a green coin in the bottom right side of the wheel. This means that a Scout can "reroll" the HO by excuting a combat art with that attribute.

Combat Wheel 05
Just for grins I've rerolled the HO and ended up with...Ringing Blow. A Scout gets a lot of skills that have the green coin attribute. Right now I have 5 that can do it -- Cheap Shot, Dirty Tricks, Evade (aggro lowerer), and two bard songs that are on the Alt toobar.

Combat Wheel 06
Here I put the beatdown on the poor badger by finishing the HO with Piercing Shriek. Notice how that Ringing Blow does 42 points of damage. That's a ton compared to my wimpy 2, 4, 5 slashes. Piercing Shriek's pretty nice too but it takes a long time to execute so it's prone to interruptions.

Combat Wheel 07
Here I've started another starter chain using Quick Strike again, beginning the cycle all over again.

And for those who read all the way to the bottom, here's a video in WMV9 format (my Divx encoder is messed up at the moment, sorry):

EQII Combat Wheel Video

[schild]

What the fuck? You fight Badgers in Qeynos? Man, that sucks. I was fighting like, THE UNDEAD HORDES and they fight badgers. Hahahhaah, woodland creatures for teh win. Loosers.

[Trippy]

Just for fun I made up a video showing what I like to call "the hand wave of doom". This is one of those HOs that people are making fun of cause it makes no sense at all.

Combat Wheel 02 (WMV9, 9.53MB)

[Shannow]

You must not have played Shadowbane, where they combined all 3 of those fuckups into 1.

*snort* carebears, CRS release patches that wipe your HD. Real men patch ww2ol...

[El Gallo]

I agree with Kageru.  If people have a hard on for button mashing, and from the deep-throating CoH got around here it seems that they do, just add short term debuffs that make sense.  When the fighter shield bashes the mob, it's off balance for a second, and melee attacks do more damage to it.  Stuff like that makes some sense.

However, stuff like  "if the cleric casts minor heal, and then the rogue backstabs, when the warrior shield bashes an unexplained lightning bolt crashes down on the mob's head" is just stupid.  

Original EQ had more strategy than either of these games, because it wasn't as overbalanced or obsessed with serving everything in little newbie friendly happy meal boxes.

[HaemishM]

It's funny how much one's opinion of the game can change because you miss out on one major aspect of the combat.    While I can see fault in Everquest 2 that you couldn't find how Heroic Oppertunities work, I can also see fault in your review of EQ2's combat dynamics that you missed the one and only thing that makes Everquest 2's combat interesting (heroic oppertunities).

How can you consider "Heroic Opportunities" in EQ2 interesting? It's the SAME SEQUENCE OF STYLES every fucking time. It could be macroed, probably quite easily. I don't know how FFXI did it, but EQ2's version of it is just flat boring. It is no more interesting than AC2's flashy mob thingy. Perhaps if the sequence changed up based on mob behavior or I don't know, my warrior wasn't firing lightning bolts out of his arse, I might think it was a good system. But it's just boring. The entire melee combat aspect of EQ2 is dreadful.

[geldonyetich]

How can you consider "Heroic Opportunities" in EQ2 interesting?

See Trippy's previous two posts on this: The Heroic Oppertunities system isn't the braindead non-aspect that some make it out to be, although it is a bit easier and more rigid than FFXI Renaki.

I think what we may have here is a varying opinion of what "interesting" means.   You might be expecting something genuinely ethralling, but in the context of MMORPGs, "interesting" for me qualifies as "something more than just engage autoattack and wait while tapping the occational hotkey".

Like it or not, EQ2's Heroic Oppertunity system does succeed in providing a needed level of interaction.   Wether or not it's enough varies from person to person.

[Mesozoic]

I agree with Kageru.  If people have a hard on for button mashing, and from the deep-throating CoH got around here it seems that they do, just add short term debuffs that make sense.  

I think CoH got teh luv for its pace.  It almost behaves in a hybrid MMO-FPS manner.  Yes, there are buttons involved.  Welcome to the PC.

EDIT:  Geld, its opportunities.

[HaemishM]

"interesting" for me qualifies as "something more than just engage autoattack and wait while tapping the occational hotkey".

So interesting is that last "boop" on the heart monitor before the old guy expires? Because HO's didn't even warrant that from me. It was and is immersion-breaking. Combat's pace is all fucked up, and HO's don't help that. It all seems disjointed. The fact that HO's are pretty much required for solo play means that it's impossible to ignore it.

This is not interesting combat, not even for an MMOG. EQ1 was more interesting.

[Soukyan]

I'm somewhat torn.  

On one end, I've got EQ2 and Planetside under the same cushy $21.95/mo SOE pass.   EQ2 is a solid MMORPG, granted somewhat in the mold of the original EQ, but I liked FFXI so I guess that isn't damning enough in itself.

On the other end, I've got World of Warcraft.

I have to be honest when I say that SOE marketing made me their bitch... again. *sigh* $21.95 for EQ2 (whichs runs smooth as butter on Very High settings with my new 6800GT *yay*) and Planetside which is releasing Mechs. They win. The price is right.

Of course, I could go with WoW and UT2K4 and save 7 bucks per month. Hrm. I see your conundrum.

As to the combat pacing, it does seem a little odd and I think that's because the hits take place and then the damage numbers are floated so there's a little delay there. As to animations feeling disjointed, I hadn't really felt that way, but I know MMOGs so well (from having played every one released since M59 - god save me) that I didn't expect a Ninja Gaiden level of combat prettiness. I think the animations are pretty damn nice compared to everything else out there. And my dual wielding scout tears shit up. Damn is she fast.

I haven't found that HOs are necessary for soloing... yet. I've only reached level 8 since last night was my first night playing. I do think that styles are necessary, a la DAoC, and I wish they would refresh a bit quicker. I do try to get the HOs working a lot because it is efficient and looks cool too. Swindler's Luck is a nice little buff as well. (Can anyone else envision trash talk on a PvP server? It'd be like a gathering of pimps. "Don't make me bring out my HOs, fool!" *snicker*)

[Numtini]

I think heroic opportunities are good. And there is strategy in knowing which ones are the better ones and working with other players to make sure they happen. That's in groups.

They totally fall flat and seem completely silly when they're used solo though. Then it really is the same thing again and again and again.

[El Gallo]

ElnoLys just said this:
"In past patches grouping in dungeons was absolutely the best way to gain experience and power and it will be again, but not at the expense of eliminating solo play. "

which should go good news for everyone.