Starting Over

[Viin]

This is just today on TheLadders, all 100k+ and virtual/regional travel.

[Merusk]

Merusk, I approve of your bold planning, but I think it needs to be bolder.  Get the fuck out of Cinci.

I would love to do this, but my Dad has had lukemia for the last 7 years, and it's flared up again recently.  Since I don't know how long he has, but I know it's not very very long I plan on staying at least close enough that I can still get-together at all the family holidays.   Yes, it limits me greatly but I think it's better that I get some time with him and he gets to see his grandchildren as often as we can get together.

Tho my Uncle lives in Atlanta, and my parents both make frequent trips to Montgomery to check-in on my recently-widowed grandmother.  That area, IS a possibility.

[Yegolev]

Family wins here, Merusk.  Sorry to hear that.

SAP is certainly a German product.  I think most of the documentation has been translated to other languages by now.  I was just making a comment on how most of our SAP people are now Indian contractors, plus that they don't know crap, plus that I know a guy who owns a contracting firm but he gets his meat from India and is almost certainly not interested in paying me enough.  I sort of know a guy who was just hired by SAP AG, though, so I might be able to do something with that.  The biggest problem is that I am incredibly comfortable with my current job... which isn't actually a problem.

[Jimbo]

What school were you planning on going back to?  I'm actually excited about it, I will miss the money and actually working (hey I do love what I do), but to be on a real schedule that isn't nights, to actually have a bit more time with my child, and the long range goal of doing something even better in the medical field is pretty awesome.  Heck, I turned down the chance to be a flight nurse and to be a SRT(SWAT) Medic, which are killer jobs but shitty pay, was cool that they came and said we would like you to do that, but had to say no.

I find that some universities will take certain classes for transfer credit, but won't count on your GPA, then some want you to redo many of the courses, the funny thing is that the more the university cost, the more classes they want you to take at their institution.  I'm still pissed they want me to take a gym class, but then again, it might be fun (tight shorts and 18 year olds    )!

[Calantus]

Ironically I had the same "fuck this" moment as you, only I'm in the field you're wanting to get into. I was so thoroughly sick of coding I could die. It's beyond boring and mindless if you're doing it right (ie. everything has already been planned out by the time you're coding), you're basically a glorified typist. If you want to get into IT make sure it's not one where you're coding unless you know for damn sure you've done it and loved it. And learning is not a good indicator. Learning it is fun, you're still at the stage where it's new and fresh and you ARE figuring things out and thinking. No, what you need to do is learn a language then write a small program. Then write it again. Now write it again. Now once more. That feeling you're getting like you've done it all before and all you're doing is typing out shit to a set plan and making sure you don't forget to put the semi-colons on the end of every last statement (or whatever)? That's coding. Unless you're still loving it you'll want to be the one planning what the code monkeys are going to write or managing the code monkeys as they write it.

I worked as a contractor which meant I was often designing and coding on the same projectt so I was able to resist the soul destroying truth for a while but it eventually caught me. Fortunately a friend of mine has a company that's doing well and needed a senior programmer to step in and manage his handful of monkeys. It's a lot higher work load but I'm having a lot more fun now that I'm no longer handling code directly all that often.

[naum]

Ironically I had the same "fuck this" moment as you, only I'm in the field you're wanting to get into. I was so thoroughly sick of coding I could die. It's beyond boring and mindless if you're doing it right (ie. everything has already been planned out by the time you're coding), you're basically a glorified typist. If you want to get into IT make sure it's not one where you're coding unless you know for damn sure you've done it and loved it. And learning is not a good indicator. Learning it is fun, you're still at the stage where it's new and fresh and you ARE figuring things out and thinking. No, what you need to do is learn a language then write a small program. Then write it again. Now write it again. Now once more. That feeling you're getting like you've done it all before and all you're doing is typing out shit to a set plan and making sure you don't forget to put the semi-colons on the end of every last statement (or whatever)? That's coding. Unless you're still loving it you'll want to be the one planning what the code monkeys are going to write or managing the code monkeys as they write it.

It seems that the industry has been harsh to the people who cherish building/programming systems.

A few years back, as a lead developer for a major shipping company that's swallowed a whole bunch of other companies, including a Seattle outfit that I worked for, I encountered one of those moments too. I typed a resignation letter and quit without any job lined up. The pay was good. I loved my team, they were all good even the curmudgeony old fart who tended to a prehistoric 10 year behind current version, ancient IBM EDI system. The whole IT structure was an absurdity — one of the guys on my team, who migrated from Seattle, took care of the mainframe systems and I would spend just about all of my time (except for the bouts tending to the UNIX servers I migrated, for which the "Unix team" had no *nix experience and I would have clean up when know -nothing operations folks would tamper with server architecture…) - I would spend most of the day writing emails, explaining how things worked to senior management, and increasingly, correcting my boss, who hadn't the first clue about the systems he lorded over. I would also field requests and be required to go into excruciating detail in specifications for which it would be farmed out to an inhouse unit which would then be assigned to an offshore team, to be coordinated with a QA team. And the hilarious thing was, time after time, my guy would take 15 minutes - 3/4 hours to actually make the change, yet it would take weeks/months for the change to be "actually made" in production…

We had a web site that had docs and support info (though most of my team used my homebrew wiki to track info), in addition to the useless HP problem tracking software (and there a couple of other packages that I was trained on that would "make our job easier", even though contractors had no access to them and that they were missing all the information in the problem tracking software) — yet I had to submit page updates to another group (after filling out forms).

It was really too much. Again pay was great, team was great, even bossman, clueless as he was, was respectful and basically nodded his head when I would rattle off status and how this issue was resolved or what happened here, etc.…

Then one day, he pulls me aside and the conversation went something like this:

Bossman: you're not pushing your team hard enough. I want you to really take the lead, crack the whip, and drive this team into shape.

Me: Do you have any idea of what they actually do, how they go above and beyond in putting out fires, and how tough it is to keep things afloat (one of the systems, like I said, was an IBM mainframe EDI package reliant on VSAM files, that was 10 years out of date, and would need 2+ major version upgrades, including a DB migration (to DB2), and all this was supposed to go away anyway and be migrated to a fancy GE (GSX) / Java system (that 3 years later, from what I am told, is still not reliable enough to run any more than replace a few token test minor systems) - there were crashes in the vendor software for which there were no solution except data cleanup as we didn't have the source, and even the IBM guys brought in at exhorbitant rates shook their head and chuckled…)?

Bossman: I prefer to be an ostrich.

Few days later, I couldn't help grinning ear to ear as I handed resignation letter to him.

Life is too short for that shit.

A month later, I went to work for an internet startup.

I spent 8 years at American Express, and liked my job there, for the most part, until the outsourcing^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Houttasking (a executive memo forbid us to use "outsourcing" as "outtasking" was the preferred vernacular…) sent most all of the application support / development  to India (or here at a facility where the offshore vendor has stocked H1B programmers "on site")… …the department I was in reduced from 200 to like 1. My old bossman retired as VP though, and just bought a 75 foot yacht… …my friend who brought me in as consultant after I resigned as employee and came back as consultant for 4 years after a few years is still there, but he's in the driver seat, a SME (subject matter expert) who increasingly does want he wants to do - goes up to the mountains all summer and works from there, mainly just babysitting bridge calls and managing relations with IBM managed data center teams (there's another story there…)…

[Merusk]

Oh yeah, I see lots of you speaking of Coding, so perhaps CS isn't where I should be looking.  I've learned enough about coding over the  years to know that that's not where I want to go.  Network Admin/ on/ off-site support and other such matters, yes.  Code monkey typing out/ designing programs? No.

Anyway: All of this is on hold a few weeks at the least.  I need to put-in my App to the Veteran's Program to see if I qualify for the benifits my brother & sister did since Dad was declared a casualty.  Plus my wife's mother just died Saturday (Massive coronary at 50 yrs old.) and I'm having to deal with all of that right now.

[KallDrexx]

Oh yeah, I see lots of you speaking of Coding, so perhaps CS isn't where I should be looking.  I've learned enough about coding over the  years to know that that's not where I want to go.  Network Admin/ on/ off-site support and other such matters, yes.  Code monkey typing out/ designing programs? No.

You have two main degree choices from what I see.  This is going by the University of Central Florida (where I got my degree)

Information Technology Degree.  This degree focuses more on the actual technical side of IT and I think you get a good amount of hands on experience with IT hardware and software.  The degree does have a decent amount of programming to it but it also covers things such as network/OS setups and information theory classes.

Management of Information Systems.  This major focuses more on the business side of IT instead of the technical.  There is a tiny bit of programming, but it's much much less then IT (and my MIS courses used vb.net instead of C, which IT used).  I would say that MIS focuses more on creating business and systems analysts rather than pure implementors.  It focuses a lot on business needs, requirements gathering, system design methodologies, etc.  My school also had elective SAP certification classes.

Personally, I went with MIS because I enjoy analysis type of roles more then implementing and coding every day.  However, since I am college age I also have time to get settled and move up with experience.  IT might be better for you because you will have more quantifiable skills when you come out, as you can say school gave you experience with X networks, you created Y programs for your classes, etc...  It might be easier to get a job at your age with IT then MIS.

There are some IT branchoffs, like IST, but I don't really know the difference between those and IT.

[bhodi]

Just so you know, MIS is looked at as IT (or CS) lite, getting you almost as much ridicule as having a degree in art history.

[Teleku]

Just so you know, MIS is looked at as IT (or CS) lite, getting you almost as much ridicule as having a degree in art history.

Which is how I sort of looked at it as well, when I was looking to transfer majors to something other than CS (was just getting burned with it, and our schools program wasn't so good).  That degree is what was recommended for many CS students who wanted to stay with computers/programming but not have to deal with taking Calculus 3, Physics, and other courses that have almost nothing to do with the major.  IE, CS Lite.  Several of my friends went that route.

After only a few years out of college, they are making 65-85K, while CS friends have been fighting for what ever code related job they can get, or just resorting to stuff that has nothing to do with their major.

IT, MIS, IDS (that's what it was at my school), or what ever you call it IS big in demand right now.  Almost all the computer related jobs I see want those skills, and that degree in particular.  The only programming jobs I see all want 10+ years experience at least.

[KallDrexx]

Just so you know, MIS is looked at as IT (or CS) lite, getting you almost as much ridicule as having a degree in art history.

Who does?  Certainly not companies from my experience.  Out of the 20-ish people in my graduating class (by class I mean physical classroom, cause you are usually with the same people for the last 2 years) 5-6 got $50k+ salary jobs (located from Orlando to Atlanta) without previous experience at major IT consulting companies.  I would be getting more but I decided to take a game design job in Australia (and we all know how lawl).  Most other people in my class that I talk to got jobs in the mid-high 40s. 

If it's random college dudes looking down at the MIS major, then who cares?  Now that SAP is part of our MIS program (and not part of the IT program) MIS majors will be even more in demand from companies. 

[bhodi]

In "high-tech" comanies, telecommunications, etc., MIS is seen as someone who wants to be technical but didn't have enough technical knowledge to be employable.

Anyone can land jobs with IT consulting companies, where being able to talk the talk is more important than being able to walk the walk. Their services are sold to upper management, and MIS people can impress upper mangaement.

[Zephyr]

Could always try Denver.

http://denver.craigslist.org/egr/
http://www.jobsearchusa.org/index.php?action=search&92=193&93=339&6=&25=&2=cad&search.x=0&search.y=0&search=Find

(Also feel free to use my LinkedIn network to look around too, though I don't think I know many folks in the CAD industries).

I'd agree with this and stay in architecture if you enjoy it.  I made the move from Jersey to Denver and was able to keep the same salary with almost half the cost of living.  I think you are being underpaid for living in a major city like Cincinnati and found the key to higher salary was changing firms.  I think I am finally ready to settle down after working at 6 other firms and finding a great company out here that is still growing despite the economic downturn.  As a civil engineer who will be taking the PE exam in October, I am making a little under $60k and always felt architects were paid quite a bit more than engineers. 

Even with things slowing in the housing market out here, the bonds for the school districts still seem to keep getting passed.  So there is plenty of work out here.   You just have to ignore the No Vacancy bumper stickers.   

Viin, you don't happen to know anyone in the county health departments?  We have been out her for almost a year and my girlfriend keeps getting turned down at Tri-County, even with all of her experience as a health inspector.

[Viin]

Viin, you don't happen to know anyone in the county health departments?  We have been out her for almost a year and my girlfriend keeps getting turned down at Tri-County, even with all of her experience as a health inspector.

No sorry, though I know someone who's working at the Denver Country Morgue if that helps any?

[Selby]

As a civil engineer who will be taking the PE exam in October, I am making a little under $60k and always felt architects were paid quite a bit more than engineers.

Not in my experience ;-)

[Paelos]

I revamped recently and I'm getting my Masters in Accounting soon. All jobs are the same shit if you're never going anywhere with it. You are either moving forward or you're hating life. Just pick something you actually want to move forward with, and that you think you can move forward with.

[Merusk]

As a civil engineer who will be taking the PE exam in October, I am making a little under $60k and always felt architects were paid quite a bit more than engineers.

Not in my experience ;-)

Yeah, Engineers make more. Cinci has a co-op program and I knew a few Mech and Civil engineers while going to school.  When I was getting jobs at $6.50-9.50 an hour, they were making $10 to 15.  The same ratio occurs after graduation.

Paleos: That's really what this whole shift is all about.  It's not so much about the money (although I do bring it up a lot so it is about it in part) but that I hate what I'm doing for the rate I'm going to make.  I can live on what I make and be happy doing it, just not for the risk of lawsuit & hours involved with being an Licensed Architect.

The really raw nerve is that I love homebuilding, but my profession is treated more like a necessary evil at all companies while it's one of the more important parts.  There's no advancement in the company unless you're in sales or the field building stuff.  This applies to all homebuilders, as I've worked for several and talked to folks who work for others.  If you're in Arch you're going nowhere unless you track into one of those other divisions.

Combine that with watching salespeople get trips to the Bahamas and half-million dollar commissions while senior management (former sales people...) says they can't pay you more galls.  Particularly since homebuilding sales are the equivalent of Best Buy sales clerks.. and as knowledgeable.  They sit in an office and wait for foot traffic while making sales calls.  None of the driving around, living on the road bullshit other sales pros are put through. 

Meh, now I'm ranting.

[Selby]

Meh, now I'm ranting.

I could rant about IT with stories similar to naum's on dumb management and how IT\programming in general is such a shit environment, but that was just my experiences.  Definitely do what you enjoy though.  I do (I got to make a pulse charger yesterday and it was fun) and I actually enjoy going to work.  A good work environment is key to this though.

[Margalis]

"Code monkey" bah! But I can see how programming isn't for everyone.

I've been flirting with working in the video game industry for years. I was this close to biting the bullet late last year but the timing was bad. I think sometime in the next year I'll go ahead and do it. Kind of sucks as I know I'll be working more for less. What I do now is pretty enjoyable but I've been at the same place for a while and getting restless. Figure it's best to do something dramatic while I'm still youngish and single and renting.

[Murgos]

I did programming, everything from LAMP to ANSI C, to C++, for 8 years and through a failed internet startup.  I now do ASIC/FPGA Design and Verification.  It's still programming but with lab days and the chance to break things.  The math I took in college actually gets used on an almost daily basis, physics plays an important part in design considerations and I get to work at an MIT lab on programs with space applications.

Yes, I took a pay cut to make the switch and started at the bottom, it's totally been worth it and my previous experience has translated well so that I have moved up rapidly.

I'm still not happy though.  I think I may move away from tech altogether.

[KallDrexx]

"Code monkey" bah! But I can see how programming isn't for everyone.

I've been flirting with working in the video game industry for years. I was this close to biting the bullet late last year but the timing was bad. I think sometime in the next year I'll go ahead and do it. Kind of sucks as I know I'll be working more for less. What I do now is pretty enjoyable but I've been at the same place for a while and getting restless. Figure it's best to do something dramatic while I'm still youngish and single and renting.

Just be careful and try to get some internal and external opinions about whatever game company you try to work for.  The environment at Auran was really bad (at least when interacting with leads/management, most of the lower people were fun).  Going into work everyday knowing that any time you try to put forth an idea to make the game more fun, only to get it smacked down and be a spec/bug monkey quickly makes going into work not enjoyable really.  A job in the games industry isn't fun/enjoyable just because it's in the games industry.  The work environment and the people you are working with matter MUCH more than what industry you are working in.

It was enough for me to decide to get out of the games industry really.  I did have job offers to stay in the industry after getting laid off from Auran, but I turned them down due to pay cut and I realized that their culture woudln't be much different after takling to current employees there.  I know from talking with colleagues who have been in the industry for a good while that Auran really isn't a unique situation, and is pretty common.

Right now I'm working in a non-game industry job and enjoying it more because I like the people I'm working with and it's a good environment, and the only real difference in job activity is I'm working on HR systems instead of Games. 

So yeah.  Do your research before committing.

[Zephyr]

As a civil engineer who will be taking the PE exam in October, I am making a little under $60k and always felt architects were paid quite a bit more than engineers.

Not in my experience ;-)

Yeah, Engineers make more. Cinci has a co-op program and I knew a few Mech and Civil engineers while going to school.  When I was getting jobs at $6.50-9.50 an hour, they were making $10 to 15.  The same ratio occurs after graduation.

Paleos: That's really what this whole shift is all about.  It's not so much about the money (although I do bring it up a lot so it is about it in part) but that I hate what I'm doing for the rate I'm going to make.  I can live on what I make and be happy doing it, just not for the risk of lawsuit & hours involved with being an Licensed Architect.

The really raw nerve is that I love homebuilding, but my profession is treated more like a necessary evil at all companies while it's one of the more important parts.  There's no advancement in the company unless you're in sales or the field building stuff.  This applies to all homebuilders, as I've worked for several and talked to folks who work for others.  If you're in Arch you're going nowhere unless you track into one of those other divisions.

Combine that with watching salespeople get trips to the Bahamas and half-million dollar commissions while senior management (former sales people...) says they can't pay you more galls.  Particularly since homebuilding sales are the equivalent of Best Buy sales clerks.. and as knowledgeable.  They sit in an office and wait for foot traffic while making sales calls.  None of the driving around, living on the road bullshit other sales pros are put through. 

Meh, now I'm ranting.

Guess architects just dress better then.   

I know that civil engineers are the worst paid of all the engineers.

[Selby]

I know that civil engineers are the worst paid of all the engineers.

Industrial are pretty close to the bottom (as far as respect goes too).  Chemical and Petroleum seem to be the top earners in engineering these days.  Electrical is up there too.

[MrHat]

Any engineer can make 180k/year if they don't mind the chance of death.