f13.net forums - EQ2 beta look from a casual perspective.

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April 24, 2024, 07:24:23 PM

we're back, baby

To use a crappy analogy that my friends on the phone insisted sucked, EQ2 is like going to a party. You're at the this party and everything's fine, you're having fun, until people start breaking out the heroin and slamming it into their arms. At this point, you figure, they're having fun, but this party is no longer something you're interested in. You just wanted a beer with some conversation. Replace slamming heroin with "playing dance-dance remix" and you get a similar effect. This is not the party you want to be at.

This game is not for the casual, it's not for the solo oriented. The intial experience may be dazzling, but if you're of the casual/solo vein; you're in the wrong place. The game has its merits and its moments, but the complete incompatibility between my play style and the options set in front of me make this game an unlikely box purchase.

EQ2 I believe, has a number of strong points going for it. It pulls off environment and mood better than anything in the industry. Freeport is perfection. The quests, the attitude, the audio and visual of the city are unparalled by games currently on the market (and in beta). The quests are gritty and mean, with crispy and witty dialog for the most part. They're as Stewie might say, "deliciously evil". The coolest quest I ran across was a case of mistaken identity where you get pulled into a cat and mouse conspiracy where you have no clue what the hell is going on. They're just a joy to complete and most help tie you in to the overall vibe of the city.

The voice acting in most areas is superb. This adds a lot to the game, especially where it is well done. There's nothing quite like listening to someone try to call you on your bluff then melting into fits of contrition when your countdown to their ass getting pummeled hits one. Hopefully they close some of the gaps in the voice acting, because when it's missing, it makes the character interaction feel frightfully empty.

The newbie experience, especially the tutorial are fantastic. The opening sequence is just great. If the game had more sequences like that it would probably get me to buy the box

The problem, at least my major gripe, is that it is eventually a terribly unfriendly gaming experience toward the more solo oriented and casual player. In Everquest, although not optimal in most situations, it was completely passible to be a solo player through a combination of creativity and player skill/knowledge. You could split a group of monsters with pulling techniques. You could use your fear spell and dots to take on multiples at once. The end result of your combat wasn't a result of a simple equation. For EQ2, look underneath a monster: solo = 95% of the time you're good to go, group = 95% of the time you're going to be high tailing it to a zone line (unless they're a bunch of no exp greys).

The major hitch with all of this is that the group content is heavily dispersed with in the solo content. Combine this with ri-fucking-diculous aggro ranges and you've got a recipe where attempting to solo is just fraught with all sorts of hassles. In addition, whomever designed the monster populations of some of the zone I've been in, needs to be kicked in the temples. Sticking randomly high content in front of low content or putting monsters that are 3 levels higher than the stuff you're fighting within a foot of aggro range goddamn infuriating.

Another part of this appears during questing. A good deal of the quests I've been assigned cannot be completed at their appropriate level without a group. You'll be able to eventually complete most of them, but you'll need to do it when the mobs are sufficiently wimpy enough. One horrendous example of this is the starting scout quests in Freeport. Your first quest you're tasked with killing a mob that's going to require a group. This mob isn't especially strong, it just as a metric shitton of hitpoints. So, in order to progress at all as a scout, you're going to need to group and track down a fairly rare spawning monster. Big deal you say? Well, come six months into the game, this will be a thorn in the side of a new subscriber that may affect player retention negatively, must like schild mentioned with the newbie isle orc quest.

The camping in the game is ridiculous. You're indoctrinated to the nature of this very early with the goblin mastery quest. The crux of this quest is to collect parts of goblins and study them. Yet, the parts are obscenely rare drops, so you could spend your entire time on goblin isle slaughering the green menace and you would still not complete this. Enough people have the "Hunter of Goblins" title above their heads to confirm that the tollerance for this crap is still alive and well. There are collection quests like this for every subspecies in the game.

No automaps outside of the main city. I hope this is an oversight. Now, maybe I've been coddled too much by the newer offerings in the MMORPG genre, but if you don't have this, that's an automatic strike against your game. I don't want to spend all goddamn day trying to find a location in the Commonlands because you jackasses are even too lazy to provide me with at least decent interspersed signage.

The reason this game fails for a more solo oriented player and partially for casuals is the individual building block of this game is not the single player. It's the group. The class design, while idiotic, lends itself to this. All warrior derivatives will have taunt; all priest like classes will be able to heal; and all mages will have some sort of crowd control (so I've heard, yet to see this in practice). So you're left with a generic feeling class selection of similarly powered dullness. All content is designed around this. Group content isn't tucked away for a group to sally forth and combat. Solo monsters aren't going to band together to assault a group but group monsters have no problem gangbanging the lone adventurer. What you're left with is a very uneven feeling game with zone populations that defy any sort of logic. You can't build your game with a "group or die" mentality and expect to be able to tack soloing on to the end product, it just doesn't work and EQ2 is proving this with zeal.

When you build the game with the lone player as the individual building block, you come up with a game that has content with a more rational monster deployment that doesn't shit all over the soloer because their content was added in as a marketting ploy.

I won't really delve to far into the class mechanism, because quite frankly, it's horrid and only deserves a sentence or two. Playing as a some sort of mundane base class before actually playing what you're paying for makes me stabby. Look, if I want to be a monk, why the fuck are you having me swing a sword for 10 levels? Why do I have to be a pre-monk for another 10. JUST LET ME BE A MONK. This is a real kick in the ass for the casual that wants nothing more than to skip the initial foreplay.

Overall, I'd say Everquest 2 might be a fantasic game if you're into some of the more group and power guild oriented aspects of the original. If you love camping, grouping, and generally powergaming to crush, I think this is your game. The game very early on will appear that it's catering to both aspects of the casual/hardcore and solo/group scales, but the illusion doesn't last for long. I'll continue to play the beta off and on, maybe to try out the Qeynos goodie-goodie side and partially to provide some feedback and bug reports that will likely fall upon deaf ears.

PS. Don't respond with a critique of my opening analogy. I LIKE IT. IT MAKES SENSE TO ME.

That is disappointing to hear. With my casual approach and hatred of the vast majority of humanity, a catass+grouping= teh win formula ain't gonna cut it for me.

Quote from: WayAbvPar

That is disappointing to hear. With my casual approach and hatred of the vast majority of humanity, a catass+grouping= teh win formula ain't gonna cut it for me.

It's more disappointing to play. There's just a ton of potential here, but it all got thrown into a direction that completely opposite of what I want. I really really like some parts of this game, which makes it all the worse that the parts I don't like are completely irreconciliable.

This game sounds like it is made for old EQ guilds to reunite - which is exactly my situation. We shall see. I have a lot less time these days.

Quote from: Rasix

PS. Don't respond with a critique of my opening analogy. I LIKE IT. IT MAKES SENSE TO ME.

I will not be mocked!

Anyhoo, in theory, I can see the appeal of the archetype system. I think the idea is to give you something to strive for, some kind of distinction to achieve through hard work and patience. This same idea infused SWG, where you started as Generic Adventurer #47,981, and someday hopefully would arise to a more specialized profession. Then, when you finally reached Master Whatever, you would feel like you really earned that title.

If you take the long view and consider that EQ2 has been designed to be played over the course of years, the vast majority of the time you spend in-game will be as your chosen profession. You just have to suffer through the first 20 levels of Generic Adventurer to get there, which only counts for a few days to a few weeks, a miniscule segment of the total time you will take to play the game.

Anyway, that's the theory. I can see where Rasix is coming from in the practice, escpecially as it's a common complaint that the 10-20 versions of the archetypes have little to no difference between them. Maybe this is something that will improve as the game matures.

The game was made for old EQ guilds to unite. The NPC social hierarchy has that built in to each city.

I'm not as far along the curve of disillusionment as Rasix, but will say his impressions are easy to agree with ingame. I won't go point-by-point, but will say that the only thing I somewhat disagree with is the comments on the mobs.

There's plenty of solo mobs. Group-marked mobs are doable alone if they are light blue, and the right class. This is true of EQlive as well. But what EQ2 lacks is any way for players to creatively problem solve. They're going to pull everything or one. They're going to fight, CC, heal or die. They're going to have problems if adds show up, and running if those adds are also marked groups. The downside of Locked Encounters is that the encounter is locked and balanced based on it being the only encounter. Add another encounter and balance seems screwed.

Otherwise, what EQ2 has become is exactly what should be expected of a game where the first testers were the alpha dogs of EQlive. The game literally smells like the bunch of Legends subscribers that were the first to post about it on the forums, though of course, that was before my time.

Not that this bothers me that much. EQ2 is the EQlive I can actually play, because it does require less time and it does play much faster. Certainly not as fast as WoW, which is why I'm still not sure which way I'm going. If SOE can't nail the large capacity zone lag problems, then it's WoW I go. I won't pay for bad code ever again.

But if they do fix it, and it's gotten better of late, then that makes the decision harder.

Thanks a million for posting this. You saved me some cash. I only play 6-8 hours a week and I don't have time for camping or finding groups. I enjoy playing games that provide me with the option of some solid productive solo play. Sounds like EQ2 is an easy pass for me now.

If it wants to lure the EQ1 guilds then it's a weird choice to halve the maximum raid size from the current EQ numbers. Likewise as far as I know there is zero demonstrated high end content in the game. Nor do the archetypes, or the pace of play, seem suited to much diversity in high end content.

I decided a while ago that I'm far too casual these days to get much of anywhere in MMOGs. I enjoy them and play when I want and I don't worry about how far ahead everyone else is. I won't play games that demand too much attention from me. No more Shadowbanes, no more SWGs. I won't let a game pressure me or make me stressy anymore.

EQ2 is ok. If my friends leave me behind in regards to levels, I'll simply group with lower level strangers or I'll solo. If I find I can't solo anymore, I simply won't play. I have plenty of time to game, I'm just happier when the MMOG I'm playing doesn't have an attitude.

I always know I'm going to be the low totem pole when I play these games nowadays and especially in level based systems, I progress very slowly. That's pretty much why the newbie experience for me is so critical. Unlike most people, I may spend a decent amount of time at the newbie level trying out classes I may like. I'm also a fickle bitch when it comes to the class I'm going to play. I've been playing WoW beta for a while now and my final choice is still between 4 classes with a couple more still a "maybe" (if I end up playing, one crucial friend is still on the bubble on his playing status).

So, when I can't get a complete feel for my character because my end subclass is still a week of playing away, I have issues. EQ2 would probably be a better game for me if you picked your first subclass at 6 leaving newbie island and your final was at 10. That's like 2-3 days of play for me.

Hell, I just hit level 24 last night in CoH. With my main. From release. Played all but one month since release. Level treadmills just aren't my thing. Time investment as a whole really isn't my thing.

Ras, that's not such a bad thing, being particular about what class you're going to play. You're kinda stuck with it for a looong time, unless you want to start over from scratch.

Quote from: Jamiko

Yep, I'll echo that.

Excellent write up, I was just about to ask what you guys thought about this game re: solo play and casual play.

I dunno what I'm doing wrong, but I've soloed my way to a 17 bard so far, part time on a friends login just doing quests. Why is my experience so different from everyone elses? I've got a few quests lined up that need me to group but it's a 5 minute thing. For example I need darkpaw rune casters which are in group of 3, theres always someone asking for people to help in this so I can go over and kill a few casters until my quest updates then leave.

It's not like EQ1 where you sat for 3 hours LFG people, the grouping is very 'casual' in the game - and thats coming from someone who hates to group with 99.9% of people.

Quote from: Luxor

I dunno what I'm doing wrong, but I've soloed my way to a 17 bard so far, part time on a friends login just doing quests. Why is my experience so different from everyone elses?

Most people go into it expecting Everquest 1. So they got Everquest 1. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Edit: Removed a bit about WoW. It had no place here.

Quote from: schild

Quote from: Luxor

I dunno what I'm doing wrong, but I've soloed my way to a 17 bard so far, part time on a friends login just doing quests. Why is my experience so different from everyone elses?

Most people go into it expecting Everquest 1. So they got Everquest 1. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy - think of it as EQ1 and it makes the WoW fanboism that much stronger.

That said, I don't really care about either game at this point.

Which we can argue is the same thing you did with WoW, Schild.

I went in to both expecting something vastly different from EQ1, because both promised it. Instead I found they're both more iterative than rewrites, not a big surprise in retrospect. One drew me in, one didn't.

In the end, aside from a few things like progression times and different methods of handholding the games are both very similar. I like WoW because it doesn't tax my system as much, it's more vibrant (Colors matter. I'm an eyecandy whore of a different type. Browns & Yellows made me quit DAoC, and don't interest me in EQ2 that much.) it's progression is something I don't have to ignore my family for and it's a world I'm not as familiar with as EQ, so my explorer side is piqued more.

Really, being so similar I wonder how it's going to turn out for both games.

You can't argue I did that with WoW. A bunch of people were selling the game up, so I sold the game down. When I finally got a chance to sit down and play it at length - guess what - I was right to sell it down. There was not a damned thing to get excited about with that game. At least EQ2 delivered teh shineh. WoW couldn't even do that for me - Warcraft III was shiny when it came out though.

Oh well, I rest my case on the ninja edit I made while you were typing your reply.

I have stopped playing EQ2, much of why is echoed in the beta forums. In EQ2 (as of this point), you cannot have a completely unique character. They base this all on grouping, if a group needs a mage type character, any mage or mage subclass will work. Thus all the class are too similar, it's not so fun when i'm doing the same stuff as everyone else. In CoH I could pick my powers and then enhance them, thus making me useful in different facits (like putting all power enhancers on snipe), but in EQ2 i'm just another cookie cutter mage. The worst part (for everyone who says this is beta) is that, from what the devs indicate, this will never change.

BTW: I never had a really big problem soloing (that is all I did my entire time in the game, only grouping to kill that head troll on refuge), but at level 12 it was starting to become a big problem. Much of why I didn't have trouble was probaly because of Arcane Bindings, I could kill anything provided I didn't run out of mana.

I think the MMORPG population will be able to differentiate between the two games. Let's use a simple test to start with, the amazon.com sales ranking for the two games;

WoW CE: #22
WoW: #46
EQ2: #626
EQ CE: #844

Damn, virtually neck and neck. But I guess the fact that the game is getting panned across the MMORPG community will really push those numbers up up up. And that's also with Blizzard managing to screw themselves out of virtually all international sales.

Quote from: Ookii

Thus the difference between class and skill/arcehtype based systems. Sure, you pick a "class" in CoH, but that is merely to give you a set of skills to choose from. It's a hybrid of sorts, but it works rather nicely and still keeps players in a semi-role while they get a little bit more freedom within that role to play how they enjoy. In EQ2 (and EQ1), it is straight class-based. You choose a class and you get these spells/skills. Yes, it does feel restrictive, especially moreso now that players have had a chance to experience different systems in different MMOGs since the release of EQ1.

I don't think the fans of a class based system would really put forward EQ2 as a good example. Given it only has three classes (tank, heal, DPS) with some minor variations and many of the powers being iterative upgrades it's unusually restrictive.

It is hilarious watching all the EQ1 class sites going into convulsions though, so I guess it was worth something.

Quote from: Ookii

I The worst part (for everyone who says this is beta) is that, from what the devs indicate, this will never change.

I would just point out that 'never' means; "until we think our revenue stream is being impacted by this issue."

My prediction is that this is thier least expensive and most likely expansion path.

Quote from: Ookii

...

I didn't know you spoke engrish. :)

Quote from: schild

Quote from: Luxor

I dunno what I'm doing wrong, but I've soloed my way to a 17 bard so far, part time on a friends login just doing quests. Why is my experience so different from everyone elses?

Most people go into it expecting Everquest 1. So they got Everquest 1. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Edit: Removed a bit about WoW. It had no place here.

I didn't really go in expecting anything. I knew basically nothing about the game. What I got was a game that just rubbed me the wrong way. It was a very visceral reaction to the game, it just felt like I was playing something that was pretty cool, yet total wrong for me. I haven't felt like that playing a game since AC2.

I would caution people to take this as more of a reaction to the game rather the a case study. I would welcome from 1-2 hours a night crowd to pipe in their two cents.

Edit: I didn't really have any difficulties leveling solo. It was just a pain in the ass and terrifically slow (and not fun /shrug). Plus there's only so much Freeport zone loading I can handle in one night (my one gripe against the quests).

Quote

I would welcome from 1-2 hours a night crowd to pipe in their two cents.

I'd like to pipe in with my 2 cents :p

Quote from: Sky

Quote

I would welcome from 1-2 hours a night crowd to pipe in their two cents.

I'd like to pipe in with my 2 cents :p

I'd use the word chime, but your musical carcass would probably get all snarky with that too!

Quote from: Rasix

I would welcome from 1-2 hours a night crowd to pipe in their two cents.

All of my impressions of both games, and most games, are from the position of 1-2 hours a night. I don't consider myself "Casual" though, since I live on forums as much as I do these games. That is, in fact, mostly what keeps me from playing 3 hours a night like I could. The first hour is generally lost to catching up for the day.

In any case, I have had as rewarding a game play session in EQ2 as I have in WoW. The rewards are just different. I can attain more tangible rewards in WoW (tangible in a virtual world of course) whereas my rewards in EQ2 are more experiential. The classes in WoW are much more diverse, and arguably more fun. The interdependency in EQ2 rewards grouping more. I feel it's easier to group in EQ2 than WoW because, at least right now, more testers in EQ2 are experienced MMORPGers. They know what to do already, and their classes force them into a more rigid box.

I couldn't care less about the quality of the graphics. It's more about the style. There's a grandeur in EQ2 that's lacking in WoW. I like the world of Azeroth, but I feel like I'm living the world of Norrath. That's role-play nonsense, to be sure, but something that affects what games I enjoy.

The decision for myself is complicated by liking both games equally. I don't have multiple active accounts. I like to dive into a single game and play until boredom, and will be playing either WoW or EQ2 in December.

I still don't know which. There's a few unanwered questions that will affect my decision. As I've said, I'm already sold on WoW, so the open questions are more about EQ2 fucking up or fixing things:
[list=1][*]Will they get the lag fixed? It's gotten a lot better, and I really do have faith in it improving more so. But a full fix is critical. I won't pay for incompetence anymore.
[*]Will they charge $14.99 a month? EQ2 isn't worth any more. If SOE tries to charge more, I'm headed to WoW.
[*]Will the NPC social hierarchy be integrated? Guilds right now can build status in an NPC society, but except for Horses, I haven't seen any of the promised metagame with Qeynos or Freeport rewarding Guilds of a certain status. This matters to me because it's one of the only points of departure between the two games that matter to me. [/list:o]
The other glaring faults with EQ2 (retarded vendor system that should have died with EQlive, class linearity due to incompleteness, somewhat ignored endgame) are stuff I expect them to fix in time, but which have no direct affect on my game play in December or January.

Quote from: Darniaq

Will they charge $14.99 a month? EQ2 isn't worth any more. If SOE tries to charge more, I'm headed to WoW.

I saw 30-day gamecards in the local Hastings the other day for ~$15 (I think $14.99), supposedly good for EQ, EQ2, or Planetside.

Quote from: Rasix

Quote from: Sky

Quote

I would welcome from 1-2 hours a night crowd to pipe in their two cents.

I'd like to pipe in with my 2 cents :p

I'd use the word chime, but your musical carcass would probably get all snarky with that too!

I was only being smarmy ;)

Quote from: Merusk

I went in to both expecting something vastly different from EQ1, because both promised it. Instead I found they're both more iterative than rewrites, not a big surprise in retrospect. One drew me in, one didn't.

I went in TRYING to find something different from EQ1, mainly something in the gameplay which was interesting and new to someone who is burned out on MMOG mechanics. And I found more of the same old boring shit.

Quote from: Soukyan

Yes, it does feel restrictive, especially moreso now that players have had a chance to experience different systems in different MMOGs since the release of EQ1.

From what I understand, according to the beta boards of course, is that you had much more class freedom even in EQ1. Of course I never played EQ1, so feel free to chime in if this is wrong.

Indeed in the original EQ, I found the most fun with the *massive* assortment of utility spells. You chose a class at level 1, and you immediately started collecting an arsenal of magic options. Druids had silly spells like "tree form" to use as party tricks, and enchanters had tons of shape-shifting spells. I had fun just rolling a ton of toons and playing them into the teens/20s, whenever you would get most of the unique abilities of that class. Then I'd get very bored, once the spells started becoming mere upgrades of lower versions.

The voice-acting and graphics sound like nice eye and ear candy, but the overall flavor sounds like a dumbed-down, prettier EQ. And frankly the voice stuff is a double-edged sword, making it harder to add new content on the fly. Unless of course, the high-end game ends up being text-only, and the voice stuff is just there to hook the mythical "MMO newbies" that are supposed to flock to this thing.

I haven't logged into EQ2 for several days. When I do, I enjoy myself but I am not really inspired by anything I see or do. I have a group of friends that will be playing in release so I'll hang out with them for a bit, but I don't see this being the game that breaks my 10 month record for a continuous subscription. It's certainly not an awful game and, for those who fancy this sort of entertainment, I think they'll be quite happy with it. I have found that more than standard combat, crafting, questing, etc... all those things that come with most games these days, I enjoy customising my character with a large variety of diverse skills with PvP in mind (ala SB) more than anything else. That option just isn't in EQ2.

I think that SOE has built a good game, with lots of content, a large area to explore, and a multitude of things to do, but it's just not my cup of tea. Fun, yes... compelling, no.

Quote from: Ookii

From what I understand, according to the beta boards of course, is that you had much more class freedom even in EQ1.

You do. But two things here:

1) You didn't have more options at EQ1 at launch. Now it does. It has more options per class and skill-template than any other game I've played. But it's had five years to grow that way, and honestly, a good chunk of stuff each class can do is rather lame or irrelevant.

2) Smed posted on Saturday that the limitations in the early game are on purpose. Our classes come into their own after 20. I can see that, given that we theoretically will have Base, Sub- and Sub- Sub- abilities after 20. But unfortunately, it's still not enough, and it still takes too long for the less patient to get there.

And there's nothing wrong with being less patient. Five years ago you had three games all with glaring faults. If you went EQ1 after AC and UO, you liked it and stuck with it for you had no choice but to quit the genre altogether (for the most part). Nowadays there's too many games for any one to be such a burden on one's patience.

EQ2 is a fine game. I do not think it has a prayer of hitting EQlive like numbers. Part of that is due to the genre being saturated. The other part is that there are games that reward players for less time investment. Like WoW. Which happens to be launching with EQ2 :)

I've seen that point rebutted somewhat with people saying post 20 class differentiation is also weak, and is in fact the primary burn-out point for hardcore gamers. One of the designers apparently stated that true class identity is acheived at level 46+, which is fine because it's a game with 200 levels. It's not a bad thing to plan for the future, in terms of both hardware and systems, but they must have realised how risky it would be. Perhaps when EQ2 went into development the idea of viable challengers was not seen as an issue.

Well the original point of my misery is no longer relevant, so now it's time to replay my mage with all his mage specific spells. The second point, on how I wish I could choose my spells and not just have them given to me (or customize them with enhancers like CoH), seems to have been addressed also (somewhat).

Now my last two gripes are:

1) Grouping, this wouldn't be a problem if more people I knew were on, I really hate grouping with random people (unlike Signe who is a grouping slut).

2) You walk out of Freeport and you're in fucking Africa, I mean this is a fantasy game, what is with the lions, rhinoceros, and elephants.

Oh and I wish I had superjump....