Re: WAR - another newsletter - more RvR, less sport PvP- Hockey Derail

[cmlancas]

Since we are talking in hockey terms, each position is stratified, much like an MMO. Penalty killers, power play players, bruisers, shut-down defensemen.... the list goes on.

 

[Draegan]

People still watch hockey?

[Dash]

Hockey is one of those sports you need to be at the game or play yourself.  In fact all sports are like that for me now other than American football which I can enjoy watching on TV, in person or playing myself.

[cmlancas]

People still watch hockey?

Duh? It's not my fault if you hate fun.

Hockey is one of those sports you need to be at the game or play yourself.  In fact all sports are like that for me now other than American football which I can enjoy watching on TV, in person or playing myself.

No. You are quite wrong. A few beers, a nice HDTV, and a decent sound-system and I'm happy. (I do far prefer attending games though).

And how the fuck would you say American football is more compelling than hockey? The action is SO stop and go, much unlike hockey.

[Hoax]

Actually Dash is 110% right here, Hockey is completely fucking unaccessible until you've seen at least two games in person or I suppose have played the sport yourself.  Football can be explained from the couch and in fact isn't worth going to live unless you are a huge fan.  Hockey tv coverage sucks cock, its worse even then real Football in terms of things the camera misses.  But there is no way to figure out the sport of hockey without seeing the full ice throughout an entire game.  This is based off everyone I know, my own experience and everyone I've ever spoken to on the subject.  Which is less then 25 people but still, there were a few Canadians in there. 

The rest of this thread is pretty meh.  Nice derail with the hockey thing!

[WayAbvPar]

Agreed. Watching hockey is actually a learned skill- TV coverage (especially American) is not good. Attending a few games and learning the flow of the game, how to find/follow the puck, etc goes a long way toward making TV viewing enjoyable. Wide adoption/broadcast in HD will help too- I don't think there is another sport that benefits as much from HD broadcasts as does hockey. The widescreen presentation makes it SO much easier to see the majority of the ice and to follow the puck.

Hockey TV viewing tips for n00bs-
1) Watch the players and see where they are looking/skating. The puck is going to be there (if it isn't already)
2) When watching long shots or scrambles/rebounds in front of the net, watch the net itself. When it moves, the puck is in it. You can also watch the players react, but then you are even further behind =)
3) Watch a Canadian broadcast if at all possible. Hockey Night In Canada has a double header every Saturday night on CBC, and it is treated with as much or more reverence as Monday Night Football was back in the old days with Cosell/Gifford/Meredith. Jim Hughson is a great PbP guy (he usually does the late games on CBC, especially if they involve the Vancouver Canucks).


And now, WAR-

Sure would like to get a hands on look at it sometime soon. Like before the sun goes cold. 

[Draegan]

I've been to plenty of Ranger/Devil games in my time.  I know about the game.  I don't lose the puck.

I still never watch it.

[Dash]

I used to go to Devils games back in the day when they flat out sucked balls.  A friend had season tickets (I'm a Rangers fan) It was great though.  We'd go down to the glass and watch them just brawl.  TV though it's so meh unless you really care about the game.  Most friends totally tune out and cant find the puck etc, you dont get the sense of flow with shift changes.  In my experience, taking them to a game is totally different, they always love it.  New Prudential center is awesome btw. 

Football OTOH I find much more watchable for some reason.  Maybe it's the fact that it's a more tactical pace and not just running/skating up and down over and over.  That and each game is so critical and only once a week.  I mean Rangers Ottowa skate to a 1 1 tie... yawn.  Whatever. 

EDIT:

And now, WAR-

Sure would like to get a hands on look at it sometime soon. Like before the sun goes cold. 

Ditto to your whole post but this especially.

P.S. Who remembers that puck tracking thing with the red highlight they put on it to try and make it easier to watch heh.

[sidereal]

I've been to multiple Bruins and Canucks games.  I've watched 20-30 games on TV, mostly in support of my fantasy players.

Sorry, hockey is not watchable enough for wide adoption.  The only people that grow up with it live in Canada or the bordering states.  Hockey way overplayed its hand with the prurient interest in fights, and now it's suffering with an audience that isn't particularly interested in watching the action stop so two idiots can pull on each others' shirts.  The NHL should cut the bullshit with the fights, move to more Olympic/European rules on clutching so the play is more wide-open and higher scoring (yes I know the Canadians love their goons and will hate this), and retreat north of the Mason-Dixon line.   Pucks that don't glow aren't the fucking problem.

[cmlancas]

Actually Dash is 110% right here, Hockey is completely fucking unaccessible until you've seen at least two games in person or I suppose have played the sport yourself.

Totally disagree. My girlfriend and I have been watching the Bolts for quite a long time and, being from Florida, haven't ever played. She understood it quite well without attending a game. She tends to have more problems with football -- she didn't know the difference between a bunt and a punt.

I suppose this is a big heaping dose of YMMV, but your generalization fails the 110% test.

[Nebu]

Since this has become the hockey thread, I'll add my 2 cents.  Having grown up in Minnesota, I played hockey during most of my formative years (kids in Minnesota come out of the uterus with skates on).  I think that the game is much more enjoyable to watch with some background or live experience.  I personally find the NHL unwatchable and prefer either collegiate or international hockey.  The fighting and hooking crap that the NHL has become famous for is better kept in films like Slapshot. 

Live hockey is always best if you have a choice.  There's no substitute for being there.  This is almost the exact opposite of football for me. 

[cmlancas]

Live hockey is always best if you have a choice.  There's no substitute for being there.  This is almost the exact opposite of football for me. 

One time my girlfriend and I were on the first level on the glass, and Ruslan Fedotenko put this guy from the Hurricanes into the boards so hard that his face planted up against the glass and the oil from his face and a little bit of spit remained after he hit the boards. It was fucking awesome.

Oh yeah, and Martin St. Louis winning a game on a breakaway with :04 left in OT with a sellout crowd. Absolutely electric.

[Nebu]

I just want to say: Most efficient mods ever. 

Carry on. 

[Dash]

One time my girlfriend and I were on the first level on the glass, and Ruslan Fedotenko put this guy from the Hurricanes into the boards so hard that his face planted up against the glass and the oil from his face and a little bit of spit remained after he hit the boards. It was fucking awesome.

^ Thats what I'm talkin about...  that's great stuff.  Nebu also hit on something that I've seen too, that being if you have gone to a game or actually played it's much much easier to follow on TV because of that background.

[Phildo]

And the last time I went to a Bolts game, they lost to Pittsburgh 4-1 

[Fordel]

Apparently us Canadians are just born with a hockey watching gene or something. Bonus racial feat!


I'm guessing most of yea haven't actually watched a NHL game in awhile. Or maybe you have but lack [Hockey Watching Mastery] or whatever. There hasn't been a tie in years (all regular season games will end with a shootout after 1 OT period), and even holding the idea of putting your stick on a player gives you a 2 min minor these days.



The real issue with NHL level hockey, is they've coached the hell out of the game. Where as in the NFL, all the video, stats, specialized coaching and new ways of playing only allowed the game to become more exciting and interesting... It has done the exact opposite for hockey. It's been a long time coming for the NHL, but it started with butterfly goal tending and it's probably going to end with the Trap at this rate. Players are taught to play the percentages, and they are taught well.

It's technically, very effective... but it's boring as shit to watch. They've managed to remove the fucking flow from hockey.  Glorified Pong.



ps. In case anyone wants to know wtf I'm referring to.

Butterfly Style - Basically, someone figured out 90% of all shots end up in the lower 3rd of the net. Protect that, and anyone can be an 'average' goalie. The above average goalies are the ones that can rely on a raw skill and reflex for the other 10% or so. Is every goalie using this style? No. But every goalie knows the angles/zones/percentages regardless of style and the style just lets 'anyone' play those numbers.

Neutral Zone Trap - Fuck offense, who needs that? You can't lose if the other team can't score! NJ Devils are probably the most infamous trap team. If you've ever watched their games in the last decade or so, you know exactly what the 'trap' is, even without actually knowing what the 'trap' is. It was supposed to be fixed by calling all the little hooks and shit, but it's done fuck all to fix it.


pss. Go Leafs Go! 

[cmlancas]

It's only boring because your team sucks just like mine does!

Lightning hockey is super-fun to watch. When you have superstars like Lecavalier, St. Louis, Richards (well, not anymore), and Dan Boyle (I could name others, but you probably wouldn't recognize them), the players make games easy to center a night around.

The trap is beatable; you need a quick transition game. Since we're comparing football to hockey in this thread, the trap is like smash-mouth football. It's sorta nice seeing a change of pace; most of the teams in the east play aggressive forechecking and quick transition (like the Bolts/Caps/etc.), and I never mind watching a nice defensive game against the Devils.


Oh, I forgot to mention, I love hockey with all my heart. (And I've never played a day in my life -- hopefully changing by next year with the new rookie rec league that just opened up!)

[NiX]

Canadians love their goons and will hate this

I'm under the impression you don't know what you're talking about. As it stands the NHL requires you have an enforcer on your team to lay it down when someone gets too aggressive on the fore check with your team. If the NHLGary Bettman would stop fucking around and actually take the sport seriously fighting would have been "removed" ages ago. Not to mention the switch to European icing and rinks.

We don't love the goons, but we're smart enough to know that in todays NHL they're required. I'm in favour of end to end hockey over two guys with, usually, no talent roughing each other up. At least with the Edge jerseys they can't jersey each other so it ends faster. I'd also like to point out that most Canadian NHL teams really don't have many fighters anymore. Phaneuf is really the only one that stills deals shit out, but mostly in well played checks.

[sidereal]

We don't love the goons, but we're smart enough to know that in todays NHL they're required.

Well, over the last 30 years goons have been an almost exclusively Canadian export.  And to listen to Don Cherry and Barry Melrose is to believe that punching another guy in the ribs a few times is pretty much the entire point of the game.  It's hard to believe that the Canadian system was just reluctantly producing rough and dirty play because the NHL demanded it, even though no one wanted it.  Certainly watching the kids coming down to play the Thunderbirds in WHL games made it pretty clear that getting in a fight every 45 seconds was the preferred route to the NHL.  Regardless, I'll take your word for it and I'm gratified that there's no real constituency for hooking and fighting, so I'm looking forward to it going away.

[Dash]

It's really a shame that Hockey isnt bigger than it is in the states.  Along with soccer of course.  Hockey I can almost see because of the big entry barriers to play in a lot of places in the US.  At least for ice hockey, shit you had to drive an hour or two at 3am to get some damn ice time by me.  Plus the cost of pads and equipment.  It's a big entry barrier especially when you compare it to something like basketball. 

Although when roller blades made their debut I saw a ton of people playing, which was a lot of fun :)

[Fordel]

Hockey's barrier to entry is something you see even here. In Toronto, it used to be Blue and White every where you went with the kids. Now, half the kids are wearing Red and White (Raptors) and play Basketball instead of Hockey.


One sport requires 400+ dollars in equipment and arena fees. Another requires a round bouncing ball and something to throw it in. The sport is really dang expensive, even pond hockey or shinny costs 2-3 times as much as any kind of costs Soccer or Basketball would.



Of course the fact the Leafs have been shit for 40 years or so probably isn't helping hockey's popularity here 




As to fighting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmMX3XEeajg&NR=1 Who doesn't love a goalie fight? 


-edit- two n's in shinny!

[murdoc]

There's very few "heavy-weights" left in the NHL now. I think you're starting to see a bit of shift to the player that can score, hit and when needed, drop the gloves. There's still a few battleships around, but a lot of them ride the pine and only tend to play when facing another team that has a top-tier enforcer on it. The era of the pure goon is coming to an end imo.

Went to Flames game last night and got to see Iggy score his 365 goal, a Flames record. Only thing that could have made it better is if Cloutier had been able to keep a puck out of the LA net for a full 60 minutes, instead of just 57. Fucking Canucks.

[WayAbvPar]

There's very few "heavy-weights" left in the NHL now. I think you're starting to see a bit of shift to the player that can score, hit and when needed, drop the gloves. There's still a few battleships around, but a lot of them ride the pine and only tend to play when facing another team that has a top-tier enforcer on it. The era of the pure goon is coming to an end imo.

Went to Flames game last night and got to see Iggy score his 365 goal, a Flames record. Only thing that could have made it better is if Cloutier had been able to keep a puck out of the LA net for a full 60 minutes, instead of just 57. Fucking Canucks.

God that was a frustrating game to watch. Vancouver owned the puck and completely outplayed LA. They just couldn't get a goddamned shot on net to save their lives (especially from the point- I would wager there were 30 shots wide from the D-men alone), and Cloutier made a few nice saves. I was certain they were going to lose 1-0 (even before LA scored), and promised my wife I would vomit all over the bedroom if that came true. Luckily Kesler came through for me- wow, has that line been playing well. They have had to, since the Sedins did their playoff disappearing act a month early this year.

[murdoc]

Too bad they're not gonna make the playoffs. HAAAA HA!

[WayAbvPar]

It is gonna be close. They got Mo back last night, which SHOULD help with the secondary scoring.

I PRAY they get a series against the Phlegms. That would be epic. Although I am not sure I could stand 7 games of Iginla and Phaneuf starting fights with their fucking visors on. Pussies.

[murdoc]

You wouldn't have to, the Flames would win it in 5.

[Phildo]

One of the highlights of the season for me was watching Donald Brashear and George Laraque duke it out in the first 5 minutes of the game for no reason other than they wanted to try each other out.  Quick nod of the head, the gloves come off, here we go!

[sidereal]

You're part of the problem.


This thread has inspired me to read some recent NHL reviews and it sounds like the cleanup is moving along post haste.  So I'll hunt down the next game on the Outside Versus Network or whatever and we'll see how it goes.

[cmlancas]

Bolts game tonight has been pretty action packed so far.

Not like they have anything to play for, though. 

[Phildo]

I'm joking.  Mostly.  I'm a pretty casual fan of the game, but I love watching it.  The fighting and goonery have played a part ever since my first Penguins - Flyers game as a kid and I don't think I'd want to see that taken away.

[Fordel]

One or two good clean fights per game isn't a problem. Having the entire game devolve into a drunken brawl is.


You just won't get rid of fighting ENTIRELY. Too much passion, adrenaline and pride tied up in it all. I'd much rather they drop the gloves and go face to face then the game devolve into cheap shots.

[Bunk]

I don't feel like making paragraphs tonight, so I'll just throw out some random points.
 - The NHL has fighting, the European leagues generaly don't. The European leagues have a way higher incident rate of violent stick fouls. Unlike those, fights seldom result in injuries.
 - The NHL has pretty much eliminated the clutch and grab stuff.
 - I like hockey on TV - I like my play by play.
 - Do not judge hockey on tv by Versus or NBC. Find a HNiC feed.
 - Teams like Pittsburgh and Washington are starting to bring some of the coaches around to the idea that run and gun can win again. Hopefully.
 - I hate all the calling for European sized rinks. Listen to the people who have played there - they will all tell you the trap is far more prevalent on bigger ice, because its the only effective defence on big ice. You can't forcheck when the defence has that much room to move the puck past you.
 - getting a chance to play the game, on ice or not, makes a HUGE difference in how you will see the game and enjoy watching it.
 - Leafs suck. That's all you need to know.

[Bunk]

It is gonna be close. They got Mo back last night, which SHOULD help with the secondary scoring.

I PRAY they get a series against the Phlegms. That would be epic. Although I am not sure I could stand 7 games of Iginla and Phaneuf starting fights with their fucking visors on. Pussies.

I still cry at night on occasion after having flashbacks of fucking Vernon robbing Smyl on that breakaway...

[murdoc]

Does that mean you don't want to borrow my 1989 Calgary Flames Video Year Book?

[Fordel]

 - Leafs suck. That's all you need to know.

The Leafs suck so badly, they can't even LOSE correctly.