WoW at the WCG

[Cosmik]

Some interesting observations.

Given that this was the World Cyber Games there were a lot of First Person Shooter experts and they stuck out like a sore thumb. These players were constantly circle-strafing and jumping over the monster they were fighting. They demonstrated considerable dexterity with the keyboard and mouse trying to contantly jump over the monster they were fighting, circle strafe it, and advance forward and back off from the monster - timing their character's swings so they were only close to the monster during an attack animation. All of this under the impression that any of this made any difference.

And...

Often when somebody tells the player they have to get back to their body to resurrect or get back to a Spirit Healer, that's when the player decides it's easier to just quit.

I'm with you, buddy. Corpse run for teh suk.

[Mesozoic]

That made my day.

[jwinston2]

Even better was this:

I'd say a good 95% of players who were obviously new to MMOGs clicked the attack button repeatedly. In WoW, clicking the button once enables auto-attack. Clicking the button a second time turns OFF auto-attack. This was confusing for so many people as they hammered on the "1" key trying to get their character to attack faster. Your initial attack rate is so slow, it seems natural that somebody would want to speed it up. Little do people realize that hammering on the "1" key actually makes you attack slower. I saw a lot of people die because they kept turning off their auto-attack.

That is just too funny.

[Liquidator]

I'm with you, buddy. Corpse run for teh suk.

Yeah, even the smallest death penalty such as a corpse run is crap!  What an outrage!  They should be giving you gold and XP upon death!

/sarcasm

[doubleplus]

I don't mind the concept of the experience penalty or the corpse run, but not both. I have to give that to WoW, you get to choose. I believe EQ2 is the same way with their soulstone deal.

[Cosmik]

I'm with you, buddy. Corpse run for teh suk.

Yeah, even the smallest death penalty such as a corpse run is crap!  What an outrage!  They should be giving you gold and XP upon death!

/sarcasm

Did I say any type of death system is crap?

Optometrist can be found under "O" in your phonebook. Use it.

[Sky]

Yeah, get it straight, corpse runs are FUN! Especially when it's 1am and you have a presentation to make at 9am! Repeat it until it's true, works for the Bush administration!

They demonstrated considerable dexterity with the keyboard and mouse trying to contantly jump over the monster they were fighting, circle strafe it, and advance forward and back off from the monster - timing their character's swings so they were only close to the monster during an attack animation. All of this under the impression that any of this made any difference.

Imagine expecting to actually /play/ the game!?! Silly gamers, you just click your little button and sit back and wait for the results! Expecting to play the game, pshaw!

Well, it's true that the genre has progressed a long ways in combat. Now you get to press a couple buttons while you sit back and wait for the results.

[SurfD]

Actually, you CAN play CoH fairly effectively in almost EXACTLY that maner.

I spend lots of time as a blaster running about, popping in and out of Line of Sight of the mobs (to get that few extra seconds where they cant launch a ranged attack), running real close to fire off a mele range attack and then jumping back to safety, or running from that Freak Tank like a sacared little girl.

[Samwise]

Before they nerfed bleeds beyond all recognition, SWG had elements of tactical combat.  You could put a bleed on a mob and then run like hell to keep a large object between you and it.  I have fond memories of running around my house with bleeding ravenous tortons in hot pursuit, like some demented game of Musical Chairs.

[Nebu]

I'm not sure where I stand on the whole concept of a death penalty.  I guess it's never really caused me to leave a game nor was it a decision item in choosing a game.  I can see why it's in place and I kind of peacefully coexist with it.  I will agree that it has been a bit stiff in some games, but I've learned to cope with that as well.  If I find the penalty unreasonable, I guess I'd quit the game.  It is just a game afterall and games are easy to walk away from.

What strikes me interesting about the 8 million threads I've read about the death penalty is that people often fail to address an obvious point:  Barring deaths that occur by linkdeath or poor game design (pathing, aggro through walls/floors/ceilings, deaths from griefers, etc) most other deaths are easily avoidable.  How can I say this?  Well, here are a few things people can do if they never want to die: Fight easier targets.  Know the encounter you're entering into. Don't group with idiots. Fight at a controlled pace.  Fight near an escape area.  

Sure, adhering to those things takes the excitement away... but you'll rarely face a death penalty.  If that isn't your style, simply pick a new game.  There are many to choose from and more on the horizon.  We vote with out wallets.  Don't like a system?  Make some suggestions.  If no changes come, leave. It's really that simple.

EDIT: The first time I ever played an FPS a guy circle strafed and jumped all over the place while shooting me.  This is when I became pretty turned off by the genre.  If you can kill someone/something with a gun while running in circles and jumping up and down, we need to start training the military in these tactics.  If a game can implement skill in aiming and tactics, then I'd be all over it.  I think this would be much more akin to a simulation (i.e. ww2ol) than an FPS.  Again, this is likely a personal taste thing.

[Roac]

If you can kill someone/something with a gun while running in circles and jumping up and down, we need to start training the military in these tactics.

When a PC interface is made to include peripheral vision and one's 360 sense of location (sound, etc), and allow "quick look" that's as quick and effortless as a head turn, then that kind of tactic becomes a non-issue.  Unfortunately, playing a FPS game is like playing football with blinders and with a limit to how quick you can turn.

Also, targets tend to quit hopping around once hit. and when and the chances of that are higher when people tend to carry auto and semi-auto weapons.  There's a fairly serious limitation of the display equipment ontop of design limitations.  Further there's the fun factor; some people would argue one shot kills aren't as fun as a drawn out firefight.

[Shannow]

When a PC interface is made to include peripheral vision and one's 360 sense of location (sound, etc), and allow "quick look" that's as quick and effortless as a head turn, then that kind of tactic becomes a non-issue.  

TrackIR gives you the quick look ....and motion sickness to boot. I know a few ww2ol squaddies who use it (they swear by it when flying, infantry its not so good) and I think it maybe just a step in the right direction. Given that + advancements in surround sound you might get what you want. Well except for periphal vision.

A good number of 'realism' FPS's eliminate bunny hopping and to a certain extent circle strafing. (America's Army, ww2ol, you couldnt bunny hop in DoD and I found a nice burst of thompson smg stopped the circling pretty quick.:). And still the point is that with a bit of thought of planning you can defeat the bunny hopping fool. When I play an FPS I know I dont have the quickest hands so I learn the map well and pick out a position from where I can ambush the l33t hopper. I like to refer to it as offensive camping.:)

[Sky]

Sure, adhering to those things takes the excitement away... but you'll rarely face a death penalty.

...and end up with the majority of mmog combat: predictable, staid and boring...or punitive. I DO vote with my dollars, btw. Since the turn of the century, Planetside has done very well by me, and CoH is doing pretty good, though I still chafe at the lock on combat, death penalties and longish treadmilling (which is at least alleviated a bit by questing, I only gain xp by doing missions).

The first time I ever played an FPS a guy circle strafed and jumped all over the place while shooting me. This is when I became pretty turned off by the genre.

This isn't what I mean by adding in twitch elements. This is borderline exploitation of the game engine, or more accurately, a crappy game engine design. I, too, dislike the Quake paradigm of deathmatch fps. Great netcode and can be fun in small doses in an arcadey way.

Battlefield 1942 is one of the best implementations of an fps I've seen, though it still has plenty of room for improvement. Every bunny-hopping mullethead in the world gets his own pine box from a tactical player who uses cover and concealment and will kneel/prone and fire in controlled bursts.

Further there's the fun factor; some people would argue one shot kills aren't as fun as a drawn out firefight.

I agree with this. The fun is in the firefight, not the kill. The kill ends the firefight. I have a thing against snipers in bf1942, but that's from too many public servers with half of both teams being snipers, half of those camping your airfield for a plane, the other half camping the enemy's airfield, trying to snipe plane campers...

[Nebu]

Ack... I've been SB'ed.

It's funny that you bring up bf1942.  Other than the few obvious flaws, this is one FPS that I really enjoy.  The tactical advantages to play and the utility of being an assault troop make this fun to play in short bursts.  I do admit that the people on the public servers do a good bit to try and ruin the game, but it's still a good go-to on those days when you just want to "blow shit up".  

For me, bf1942 is close to what I want from an FPS.  It's a good combination of skill + strategy.  By the way, some of the pilots in this game are amazing.

[Sky]

Yes, I was a pilot in my clan ;)

Public bf1942 is good, but after a couple months I was looking to quit, because of the smacktards. But then I remembered a guy had asked me to join his clan because he thought I was a devious engineer (I was), and I emailed him and got into league play, first as an engineer, then as a pilot.

League and scrimmage clan v clan bf1942 is a beautiful thing. No plane campers, few lamers, just two teams working toward the objectives, each team working in harmony with good communications...I've been resisting getting too involved with Planetside because I was playing in two league matches a week plus at least a couple scrims plus practice nights, bf1942 was sucking up way more time than a mmog.

In fact, I'd say the difference between a good and bad public experience with bf1942 boils down largely to the same thing as it does in mmogs: accountability. Without it, the asstards come out in force and do their thing.

Two quotes is hardly a sirbrucing :P

[HaemishM]

Actually, you CAN play CoH fairly effectively in almost EXACTLY that maner.

It's amazing what that game has done for my lack of patience with typical MMOG combat paradigms. I STILL have fun with CoH combat, unlike any other MMOG PVE combat. When CoV releases, if it's even slightly balanced, that game will be the MMOG to be beat for fun factor.

[Sky]

I have to agree with Hammy. I don't know what it is about CoH (well, I do have some ideas, heh) but it is totally set in traditional mmog combat ways but manages to be a hell of a lot of fun. Even the leveling doesn't bug me, because just following the missions and goofing off is plenty good enough to keep leveling at a decent pace, albeit at the early twenties for me. Enough content introduced to keep things feeling fresh.

I just hate cave missions. Really, really hate 'em. Luckily, it fits my character, who is an interstellar traveller, being all cooped up like that isn't good for a being who's traveled the cosmos!

Anyway, CoH and PS are why I stress the importance of fun gameplay. The gameplay alone is enough to keep me coming back to both games (really, I've only unsubbed each for a month and each of those was a fluke). Like a lot of folks, I wish there were some more meat there in each game, but I think games should be built up from the bones anyway.

[Shannow]

I hope clan BF1942 is better because I found public to be horrible.

And maybe its just me but I found the retarded monkey controls and viewable distance as long as my arms made flying planes awful in BF1942..A situation where ww2ol actually spoiled me..boggle.

But I think the biggest thing missing is playing on organised teams, preferably using TS, makes a huge difference...Now if we could just add a little persistance, a few RPG elements and bam BF1942Online..

[Sky]

What do you use to fly? I use a gamepad and it's wonderful, when I was playing regularly I was damned scary with a plane, almost uncanny. I never had much of a problem with the view distance, set at max, though I did like when there was a hack to push it out to a ridiculous distance and remove fogging. More of a problem for me were maps like Kursk that were really a little too tight for good aerial maneuvering, even a smallish map like Kharkov can have decently effective air cover.

Clan play is night and day from pub play. TS and coordinated effort met by the same. Good stuff.

[Shannow]

I use a joystick and Im used to a bit more fidelity in my flight model after having played ww2ol. The problem with clan nights is there not suited to the casual gamer. I played a bit of the Joint Ops demo and thought it was absolutely fantastic...as long as you could have 15-20 guys playing on TS with you, otherwise it was an exercise in frustration. Thats why someone needs to make a persistant game using a series of bf1942 or joint ops arenas, I'd pay for a game like that done half well.