PvP shenanigans.

[Ratman_tf]

Probably an old topic I missed, because I'm slowpoke, but anyway.

I'm in the 30-39 bracket for Battlegrounds, and it's business as usual for an Alliance PvPer. Lose a lot of Battlegrounds, occasionally get a victory, and grind marks until you can get a blue.

So last night I got "rogued". I haven't played Rogues much, but apparently they can stun you from another server and all your characters on your account get stunned for about a month and a half. (I may be slightly exaggerating here)

Oh, and I'm starting to feel the Warlock hate too. They are tied with Druids as my nemesis now.

Mostly, I'm just grouchy that I can spend all my fightin' time Crowd Controlled, and doing absolutley nothing.

[/gripe, whine, moan...]

[Dren]

Try being a healer in BG/Arenas.  I am specced to optimum healing capabilities.  I have collected a rather impressive set of gear for healing.  I get into BGs/Arenas and spend most of my time trying to avoid/trinket/hide/bubble from being stunned/spell-locked/cycloned/sheeped/blinded/sapped/stunned/stunned.  Did I say stunned?  If I do make it through all that, I'm out of mana from mana burn, mana drain, or viper sting.

Most of the time, I'm getting maybe 1 or 2 heals out every 30 seconds.  These are the small heals because I long ago gave up on waiting 3-4 seconds for a big heal.  It just never happens.

To cap it all off, I get blasted for "NOT HEALING" by the rest of the raid.  They say this while happily going after warriors  and ignoring the fact that I'm being raped.  Once in a great while I get into a group that understands that their healers need to be protected and everything goes smooth as silk.

[stu]

Ratman, what class to you play?

[Nebu]

I've been playing my shaman exclusively the past few months.  Last night I went back to my old server and played my rogue for about 2 hours.  I was laughing the majority of the time at just how easy the class is to play by comparison.  With crappy green gear, I could still hold my own in pvp playing the rogue and PvE was a joke.  Killing 4+ level 70 mobs was trivial.   Rogues have so many toys, good cc, high dps, and more.  Going back to the class was a real eye opener.

I'll probably give my mage a try in the next few nights.  My initial impression is that Blizzard a) balances classes for PvE and b) considers most of class balance in endgame gear that few people will ever actually get. 

[Merusk]

I'll probably give my mage a try in the next few nights.  My initial impression is that Blizzard a) balances classes for PvE and b) considers most of class balance in endgame gear that few people will ever actually get. 

a) They keep it fairly balanced between pvp/ pve power across the class.  Across specs is way off on lots of classes.  Prot War vs Arms War in PvP then in PvE.  One shines one place one shines the other.. so the class is 'evenly' balanced while spiked in one direction or another.

b) Yes, this is exactly what they do and it continues to be insipid.

[Ratman_tf]

Ratman, what class to you play?

Hunter.

[Selby]

Try being a mage with your Victim Hat and your "Free Honor" sign stuck to your back.  Some classes are just better at PvP than others.  I can at least teleport across the world instantly and everyone else has to walk, so I have the last laugh in that aspect.

[Ralence]

  I think there is just a lot of rock/paper/scissors that goes on, depending on class/spec, pretty much everyone (aside from healers*) has someone that they can just whip ass on.  The problem, especially in the non-70 brackets, is that 99% of the players are rogue/warlock/druid/hunter, the classes with the least amount of people that can kick their asses.  As for being a hunter, just wait until you get to play in AV, and hide in the pack, you'll find nobody gets close enough to attack you most of the time, and you can just rack up free honor, same thing with mages.  The smaller BG's have a lot more 1v1, 2v2 fighting, once you can join the zerg in AV, it's a whole different game.
  I actually did some random testing of honor gains, and my paladin gets almost 2x the honor per AV by throwing on healing gear, and pay attention here, ONLY healing hunters/warlocks/mages.  Screw the melee classes that need it, they only get 3-4 kills before they die, range classes, they live FOREVER.

 



*That are not druids

[Ratman_tf]

  I think there is just a lot of rock/paper/scissors that goes on, depending on class/spec, pretty much everyone (aside from healers*) has someone that they can just whip ass on.  The problem, especially in the non-70 brackets, is that 99% of the players are rogue/warlock/druid/hunter, the classes with the least amount of people that can kick their asses.  As for being a hunter, just wait until you get to play in AV, and hide in the pack, you'll find nobody gets close enough to attack you most of the time, and you can just rack up free honor, same thing with mages.  The smaller BG's have a lot more 1v1, 2v2 fighting, once you can join the zerg in AV, it's a whole different game.
  I actually did some random testing of honor gains, and my paladin gets almost 2x the honor per AV by throwing on healing gear, and pay attention here, ONLY healing hunters/warlocks/mages.  Screw the melee classes that need it, they only get 3-4 kills before they die, range classes, they live FOREVER.

 



*That are not druids

I'm actually alternating AV/WSG for the marks. Honor isn't a problem, it's the damn marks. Speaking of AV, I had a really great one today, where we rolled the horde back to their graveyard and won 2/1 on resources. Was nice for a change. 

Er. I meant AB, not AV.  Nvmd.

[Chimpy]

  I actually did some random testing of honor gains, and my paladin gets almost 2x the honor per AV by throwing on healing gear, and pay attention here, ONLY healing hunters/warlocks/mages.  Screw the melee classes that need it, they only get 3-4 kills before they die, range classes, they live FOREVER.

I used to (and still do to an extent) HATE Warsong on the hunter. It was terrible before they removed the deadzone, it is only mildly bearable now. But I took my noobsauce resto shaman in there with a MS warrior the other day and was having fun being WF bitch and tossin earth shield/chain heals around.

[Merusk]

How can you hate WSG on a hunter? All kinds of space to kite idiots with concuss/ frost trap/ wing clip.  Yeah, if you're against a group that actually forms-up and stays together your're fucked, but then games like that wind-up being over in 10 mins anway.

[Ratman_tf]

How can you hate WSG on a hunter? All kinds of space to kite idiots with concuss/ frost trap/ wing clip.  Yeah, if you're against a group that actually forms-up and stays together your're fucked, but then games like that wind-up being over in 10 mins anway.

Unless you're up against a guild and/or premade farming honor. While I haven't been in a WSG that lasted longer than AB, they can drag out when both sides flagturtle.

[Chimpy]

How can you hate WSG on a hunter? All kinds of space to kite idiots with concuss/ frost trap/ wing clip.  Yeah, if you're against a group that actually forms-up and stays together your're fucked, but then games like that wind-up being over in 10 mins anway.

I honestly really don't care for PvP that much. I really really liked AV at the beginning, and I still have fun when I can get in a group with people I know and do stuff to piss off people on alliance (I play alliance) while making it the most worthwhile time for me.

And the only place worse than WSG is EotS for me. Just my feelings.

[murdoc]

Rogues are ridiculously easy to play in the 30-39 BG. I have a decently tricked out hemo rogue in that bracket and there isn't a single class that, if I get the jump, gives me any trouble. Hunters, Mages and Warlocks can take me down, but only if they see me from range. I can go through a game of WSG or AB with only dying a couple of times.

Bored, I rolled an Enhance Shaman and now end up dying much more, but I'm having a blast with LOLWINDFURY

[Xanthippe]

I hate rogues particularly on my hunter.  I have 3 friends who play rogues who all think it's so easy for a hunter to kill a rogue.  Well, it's not unless we spot them first, and how often does that happen in pvp?

So use flare and traps constantly.  Put pet on aggressive.  Don't stand still for long.  Don't run or ride in a straight line.  If a rogue does stun you, don't bother with your trinket; it'll just stun you with one of the other 293 ways of immobilizing you and your trinket will be down for the mage ahead.

And in the world, if you see a rogue, kill it no matter what level it is or what it's doing.  I can't tell you how many times I've ignored a rogue thinking it won't bother me if I don't bother it only to have it come gank me in the middle of a mob pull.  In fact, of all the classes out there, rogues are the most likely to gank, at least in my experience.

[Xanthippe]

Speaking of shenanigans - last weekend I played in the 19 battleground with my son and stepson (on the Shattered Hand server - not sure which battlegroup it was).  We faced practically all twink teams.  I looked up some of them - netherhide leg armor on one!

So these assholes would get the flag and then just hold it, and farm hks.

Way to get people starting the game to never want to play in the battlegrounds at all.

I wish Blizzard would match people according to enchants/gear.  Or disallow high enchants and leg armor on 19s.  It's ridiculous.

And to those people who say twinks do it to play other twinks - not these guys.  They would have gone for the quick win so they could face a twinked team if that was the case.  They were going for pure soul-crushing domination - which they got.  We ended up not playing anymore.

[SurfD]

yep, nothing like a level 19 twink with 1500 health and 65% physical dodge rate....

[Ratman_tf]

So these assholes would get the flag and then just hold it, and farm hks.

This is what burns me up. I have more honor than I can spend, because it's marks that are hard for the Alliance to gather. And I'm as good as my teammates in the getting of marks, which means it's a complete RNG.

Thankfully I haven't seen too severe honor farming, especially after getting out of the 19 bracket. It still happens from time to time though. 

[Koyasha]

And in the world, if you see a rogue, kill it no matter what level it is or what it's doing.  I can't tell you how many times I've ignored a rogue thinking it won't bother me if I don't bother it only to have it come gank me in the middle of a mob pull.  In fact, of all the classes out there, rogues are the most likely to gank, at least in my experience.

The reason rogues are most likely to gank is because they are the least likely to have revenge taken upon them, since, when you come back, they're either gone or hiding.  And you're not likely to catch them anytime soon.  Even if you do catch them, they'll just Vanish.  And ever since Cloak of Shadows, can't even count on dotting them to break their vanish because they can just CoS then vanish.  The end result being that rogues are much more likely to gank you because they know they're far less likely to have you gank them in the future in retaliation, either immediately or down the line.

Killing them first doesn't help either.  They'll just come back and get you while you're engaged, if you can beat them straight up.  If there's a hostile rogue in the area your options are pretty much to leave, outnumber him, or outskill/outgear him enough to be able to defeat him AND any mob you pull.

[Nebu]

Stealth and stun are the two dumbest things anyone could put into a PvP game.  Being unable to react and unable to see your opponent simply allows too much of an initiative advantage. 

I saw this on the WoW forums about shaman vs rogue and it made me chuckle.  Especially the last bit.

This has always been a classic bad matchup, and probably always will be.

The only time you have some advantage is early and if there's any distance. Do what you can to create distance. Save all your tricks to either maintain distance or burst heavily. Again, this is a very tough matchup.

Otherwise, stand there mashing and rolling your face against the entirety of your unresponsive keyboard for a while till you die. Status quo really.

[Zetor]

I put on my pvp gear when I farm, now (including pvp trinket) and farm conservatively when I know enemy stealthers are in the area. Sure, it hurts effectiveness a bit, but frying a stupid rogue who thinks me an easy prey [as alliance warlocks in pve gear are, considering about 99.897% of horde rogues are undead] is definitely worth it. Most of them are simply not prepared to have their 'victims' fight back and a lot of them are not exactly 'skilled'.

WOW's pvp is pretty darn flawed at every level [and that's putting it lightly], but it can be fun in small doses.


-- Z.

[Ratman_tf]

Stealth and stun are the two dumbest things anyone could put into a PvP game.  Being unable to react and unable to see your opponent simply allows too much of an initiative advantage. 

As a Hunter, stealth doesn't bother me too much. I have Track Hidden and Flare, and usually have a few seconds to react to a stealther before they get behind me.

Stuns and CC in general should be on some kind of diminishing returns system. Getting shut down by a 'lock/Rogue heavy team is just painfully frustrating.

[Dren]

My biggest issue with stuns/cc right now is the fact that they have handed these abilities to classes that are also able to kill you effectively.  So, not only are you unable to react, they can single-handedly kill you while helpless.  It wouldn't be such a big issue if CC classes were just that, a CC class.  Otherwise, the CC needs to be able to be broken by damage.

At this point, every healer class can be solo'ed by a lock, mage or rogue within seconds.  They shut down healing and proceed to burst damage on top of it.  The way Blizzard has set things up, PvP is truly all about the zerg and blast mentality.

I'm also developing a true hatred of arcane specc'ed mages.  They can single-handedly protect a node by spamming arcane explosion for what seems like ever.  The damage and mana use just don't seem balanced considering they are taking out everyone at the node at once.  Their total damage summary must be insane.  As a healer, I just cannot keep up with that kind of output.

Also, is there a school that trains these mages to jump everytime they hit arcane explosion?  It makes me want to choke them.

I'm coming to the conclusion that alliance loses BG's purely from the fact that we don't seem to ever have any mages that can solo defend anything.  I typically see 40% rogue, 40% hunter, 10% warrior, 10% all the rest.  I got into a EoTS last night that had that exact make-up.  We got stomped soundly.  I was the only healer.

[Ratman_tf]

Horde seems to have a nice mix of healers and they tend to work together more effectivley. AB, fer instance, Alliance mostly yell and get stuck on defending. While Horde roll around, pushing everyone around and taking everything. The few AB's where we thrashed the Horde were when we were on offensive, kicking ass and pushing the Horde around for a change.

I'm so tempted to re-roll Horde, but then I can't twink anymore, since I don't have any high level Hordies. 

[Nebu]

You should reroll Horde... on Venture Co.  We need more level 70's.

[Xanthippe]

You should reroll Horde... on Venture Co.  We need more level 70's.

Yes!

We need more druids, too.

[Chenghiz]

I hate rogues particularly on my hunter.  I have 3 friends who play rogues who all think it's so easy for a hunter to kill a rogue.  Well, it's not unless we spot them first, and how often does that happen in pvp?

Lesson 1: Kill every rogue you see.
Lesson 2: Frost trap. Use it. You will win with any semblance of skill, assuming the rogue doesn't totally outgear/outlevel you.

[Montague]

Horde seems to have a nice mix of healers and they tend to work together more effectivley. AB, fer instance, Alliance mostly yell and get stuck on defending. While Horde roll around, pushing everyone around and taking everything. The few AB's where we thrashed the Horde were when we were on offensive, kicking ass and pushing the Horde around for a change.

I'm so tempted to re-roll Horde, but then I can't twink anymore, since I don't have any high level Hordies. 

My experience Horde vs. Alliance pugs in BG's:

Horde BG: (non-AV): Somebody speaks up "Make me raid leader please". It's done. "Alright, who are our healers?" 3 or 4 players respond. Raid leader shuffles groups around for optimum strength. "Alright, group one go to X, group 2 to y, group 3 to Z. Stick together and call out once the node is captured. Let's go."

Alliance BG: (non-AV): *Crickets*

Horde BG: (non-AV): Lots of warlocks. Lots of warriors. Hybrids are ALWAYS healing/support specced unless they are geared to the teeth. Off-specs are almost non-existent. Epic honor gear is the rule rather than the exception. A lot of toons were twinked and had full honor gear upon dinging 70.

Alliance BG: (non-AV) Land of Boomkin Druids, Ret paladins, and Shadow Priests. At least half of the raid is in blues and greens and just wants to take the beating and get their mark. The other half are DPS classes in a mix of honor purples and raid gear and run into a group of 5 or 6 horde and then bitch and moan when nobody heals them before they die.

[Chimpy]

Horde BG: (non-AV): Somebody speaks up "Make me raid leader please". It's done. "Alright, who are our healers?" 3 or 4 players respond. Raid leader shuffles groups around for optimum strength. "Alright, group one go to X, group 2 to y, group 3 to Z. Stick together and call out once the node is captured. Let's go."

I think a large portion of that comes from the old your server only battlegrounds and the standard considerably smaller player pool on Horde. On Garona, I basically knew 3/4 of the lvl 60 horde toons if not from direct interaction from reputation. You knew that the person who "knew" what to do would be the one in the lead 9 times out of 10 and you all knew your role because everyone had some level of knowledge.

With the cross server game, I can only assume that the horde level of cooperation is still there, just a little more watered down. On alliance, everyone bickered with people on their own server and never worked together, and with no interaction outside of the battleground, there is less incentive for them to cooperate.

[Montague]

Horde BG: (non-AV): Somebody speaks up "Make me raid leader please". It's done. "Alright, who are our healers?" 3 or 4 players respond. Raid leader shuffles groups around for optimum strength. "Alright, group one go to X, group 2 to y, group 3 to Z. Stick together and call out once the node is captured. Let's go."

I think a large portion of that comes from the old your server only battlegrounds and the standard considerably smaller player pool on Horde. On Garona, I basically knew 3/4 of the lvl 60 horde toons if not from direct interaction from reputation. You knew that the person who "knew" what to do would be the one in the lead 9 times out of 10 and you all knew your role because everyone had some level of knowledge.

With the cross server game, I can only assume that the horde level of cooperation is still there, just a little more watered down. On alliance, everyone bickered with people on their own server and never worked together, and with no interaction outside of the battleground, there is less incentive for them to cooperate.

No doubt. I play primarily Alliance but one of my Horde friends complained after the battlegroups were formed that the one problem they had (and still run into sometimes, especially in AV) is the "too many chiefs" syndrome. Alliance has become less obnoxious and annoying but now nobody says anything at all.

[Xanthippe]

I've been playing on the Vengeance battleground (Alliance) and Nightfall (Horde).  I have noticed no difference at all in battleground chat, player makeup, maturity levels or ability.

[WindupAtheist]

Speaking as a paladin, everyone who wants me to spec Boring so that they die less can eat my shit.

[Merusk]

Lesson 2: Frost trap. Use it. You will win with any semblance of skill, assuming the rogue doesn't totally outgear/outlevel you.

I've had rogues just vanish and go gank someone else in a BG when I dropped a frost trap then proved I knew how to use it to kite them.  Oh I could practically hear the cursing.

I've been playing on the Vengeance battleground (Alliance) and Nightfall (Horde).  I have noticed no difference at all in battleground chat, player makeup, maturity levels or ability.

I've made the comment a few times that Venture Co's battlegroup seems to be full of Alliance rerolls.  I stand by this, since I've gone back to play my 30-something mage on one of the older battlegroups.  It's a completely different experience vs what I've seen out of Nightfall, and Nightfall reminds me very much of Rampage, my Alliance hunter's BG.  I see the same mistakes and the same "Rambo" mentality.

[Dren]

My experience on the alliance side is the same as Montague's.  Once in awhile a leader will pipe up and shuffle people and direct.  Then we win most of the time.  The times we don't are just due to purely being out geared or just not having the balance needed for the long haul.  I should just create a macro that yells out basic instructions, but without shuffling people around that doesn't really work either.  I need to learn to be a raid leader and shuffle I guess.  I've never done it.

Another shenanigan:

Premades:  I've complained already, but I'm just going to do it again.  These things are just being exploited to death and something needs to be done.  I came up with a thought last night.  If the other side is made up of 50% or more of the same server, your side should get an option pop up to exit the BG without penalties.  If enough people depopulate the instance, the BG ends.

I really don't have a problem with people wanting to group up and run BG's, but when these guys are forcing themselves upon purely PUG groups and jumping out of the premade vs. premades, it is just totally against the way these things are intended to work.  It is an exploit in my mind.  As a pugger, you just have to look at the fact that the other side is a premade and then try to get as many HK's as you can before losing.  While I still get some decent honor from this, it is just soul crushing and no fun.

I have to admit that it was fun to deny one premade last night on a node in EOTS.  They came wave after wave to get it and we kept beating them.  I KNOW that if we had any kind of organization to our group, we could have taken them easily.  However, I've been in some matches where the premades were obviously geared to the teeth along with being organized 100% via voicechat.  We were on the rock 99% of the match.

AB, or AV where it is PUG against Premade.  No question the premade will just completely dominate.  WSG is the only one that a PUG has a decent chance against a premade.  WSG has such clear cut roles for D and O that it is pretty easy for people to just "feel" their way through a match.  It then just comes down to one side out gearing  and out playing the other.

[Arrrgh]

The main problem with premades is that as soon as they see another PM one of them bails. So now one side is full, the other empty, and players on the empty side start to slowly trickle in just as the match starts. By then the PM already owns the map and the people that just arrived get a few pointless and no fun minutes just waiting for the match to end so they can try again.

They need to improve the matching system and also rig it like the arena so that you can't see the other team at all till the match starts.

On your 39 getting spanked some classes just peak earlier than others. I don't have a hunter but you might be better off at another x9. You also get fewer twinks the higher you go.