Sneaky Ninja Skills: Probing & Covops Training Op 23rd February 2000ET Sankassen

[Endie]

As a wardec corp we will (hopefully) have plenty of targets doing stuff like mission-running, mining hidden belts and hiding from us in safespots.  If you cannot probe such people down, then you can't touch them*.  Once you have the right skills and techniques, however, you can terrify them into docking up for a week, quitting their corp, or even into simply not playing.

With pretty minimal skills, however, you can track them down.  You don't need a covops, although that sure as hell helps: you can do it with a T1 frigate, some basic science skills and a bit of patience, and if the target is a non-paranoid carebear in a busy mission-running system like Motsu he'll probably never spot you in local.

I'll cover finding a target, probing him down, and providing a warp-in.  I'll also cover how to use cloaked ships to run gatecamps (the covops shuffle), how to scout for a fleet, and some fitting advice.

Anyway, to give anyone interested a few days to get the right skills, I'll run this next Saturday (23rd February) at 20:00 Eve time starting at Sankassen.  You will need these skills and objects:

Basic Requirements

These take no time at all to get.  If you start tonight from no science and no suitable frigate skills at all you could be ready by the end of the weekend.

Skills
Racial frigate II (the higher it is the faster you can scan)
Astrometrics III (requires Science III)

Stuff
A Heron, Imicus or Probe (no Amarr option vOv)
10 or so each of fathom and snoop scan probes.
A recon probe launcher (not a scan probe launcher)


Gold Standard

This is the long term ideal for probing, but is only needed if you really specialise.

Skills
Racial Frigate V
Covert Ops III
Astrometrics IV
Astrometric Pinpointing III
Astrometric Triangulation III
Signal Acquisition III
Cloaking IV

Stuff
Buzzard, Helios, Anathema or Cheetah
Fathom, spook, snoop, ferret probes
Recon probe launcher
Covops Cloaking Device II

I'll provide an alt in various ships to provide targets for scanning down.

Covops are really worth getting into: in the short term, they are great for finding targets, and they are the main step on the road to recon cruisers, which are really, really awesome ships, especially in a wolfpack, since they can find a target, warp to him while remaining cloaked, glide up to him unseen, uncloak, jam, dampen, web or scramble him from outside his engagement range, then do sufficient damage to kill him. 

Recons would be a superb medium-term aim for us as a corp, as you can roam freely even in hostile 0.0, and pick your targets at will.  They are what Goon blackops teams successfully use to shut down entire alliances with a dozen or so players at a time, denying them the use of their own space since no-one dares rat or mine with them in their local view.

I expect this will be a smallish group, so I'll be able to give everyone plenty of practice: as little sitting around as possible.  It should only take a couple of hours tops, if everyone is there on time.  I'll start prompt and won't go back to start again if people are turning up 25 minutes late 

--------------------------

*Except old-skool piraticals with mission bookmarks, ok.

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Participants:

ajax34i
bhodi
dbltnk
Ravandor
Zetleft
Darkin Ranova
Hoax
lac
Quinton
Der Helm
Merusk
Mook
Llyse

[nurtsi]

Does one have to be in F13/BC to participate?

[Endie]

Does one have to be in F13/BC to participate?

Nah, I posted it outside the private forums for that reason.

[ajax34i]

Interested, will be there.

[amiable]

Endie, since I will be finally getting into my ceptor next week I was curious about becoming a better scanner...  Is it possible to scan someone out in missions just using a directional scanner?  If so is it possible to warp to them?  Or will I need to train scanning skills ot find them... 

My current plan is to just jump into my beam-Crusader and start hitting belts, using speed and suprise to gank folks, but it would be nicer if I could cut down on the time finding them!

[bhodi]

Endie, since I will be finally getting into my ceptor next week I was curious about becoming a better scanner...  Is it possible to scan someone out in missions just using a directional scanner?  If so is it possible to warp to them?  Or will I need to train scanning skills ot find them... 

My current plan is to just jump into my beam-Crusader and start hitting belts, using speed and suprise to gank folks, but it would be nicer if I could cut down on the time finding them!

Nope. Scanners will tell you what direction he is in from you (with a bit of work) but it won't give you a warpin. You look at the direction you've pinned him down to, and figure out what is along that line (usually a belt) and then warp to that belt hoping you were right. Pinning someone down with the directional scanner takes patience and some skill. It's nothing like probing.


I'm in.

My alt's got 8d11h on Electronics Uprgades V, then 4 days for cloaking IV, so I'll be able to covops in about 2 weeks.

I'll bump that stuff and train up astrometrics III and the other probing skills so I can attend on saturday.

[5150]

Endie, since I will be finally getting into my ceptor next week I was curious about becoming a better scanner...  Is it possible to scan someone out in missions just using a directional scanner?  If so is it possible to warp to them?  Or will I need to train scanning skills ot find them... 

My current plan is to just jump into my beam-Crusader and start hitting belts, using speed and suprise to gank folks, but it would be nicer if I could cut down on the time finding them!

Nope. Scanners will tell you what direction he is in from you (with a bit of work) but it won't give you a warpin. You look at the direction you've pinned him down to, and figure out what is along that line (usually a belt) and then warp to that belt hoping you were right. Pinning someone down with the directional scanner takes patience and some skill. It's nothing like probing.

While this is indeed true it is not technically accurate.

_If_ you were able to locate the target on a 5 degree scan you could fly towards him and, once you'd covered the distance, arrive on the same grid. Unless however the target is only a few thousand KM away (and youre in a really fast ship) you're never going to get to him before he leave or you go insane.

I have actually done this once (and the target wasn't in deadspace, although it might have been a bookmark from a previous deadspace mission). I got the target on 5 degree scan and was waiting for a prober to arrive, in the meantime I just kept reducing the range on the scan and once I realised how close they actually were I just MWD to them (took a couple of mins)

I would have loved to see the look on their face when I turned up on overview - fortunately for me there were 2 of them (Rifter and Thorax) and they obviously thought they could take me because both of them engaged and died (yes I called in backup to break the Thorax tank)

[dbltnk]

I'll be there.

[Endie]

The other chance with the directional scanner - and not as tiny a chance as you might think - is that the target is safespotted inline between where you are (station, gate etc) and a planet, belt or other such body.  When you find them on the 5 degree scanner but they are closer than any of the nearby bodies it is *very* worthwhile warping to one of those bodies and keeping your "add bookmark" button ready.  You may very well see them as you pass them in warp: you can bookmark them on the way past (Eve is not quite as realistic about these distances and deviations as you might think) and warp back to the bookmark.

[Endie]

I'll bump that stuff and train up astrometrics III and the other probing skills so I can attend on saturday.

Remember, this is nine, not two days away: February 23rd.

[Ravandor]

I'm in, and I can be on time for this one.  I promise. 

If there's one thing RvB this week taught me, it's that I need to learn how to find people a bit more easily.

[Yegolev]

This thread makes me completely afraid of undocking my Mackinaw ever again.

[LC]

I'm probing down mission runners in game right now. It's loads of fun. Definitely worth the training time

[Murgos]

Why are both the Amarr recon ships drone boats while the Gallente recons are either a missle boat () or a blaster boat?  This makes no sense to me.

I guess if I want to do recon cruisers and be effective I'm going to need to train Amarr racials.

[lac]

Probing down random mission runners is easy enough once you got the scanning skills.
I was wondering if there is anything you can do to help scan down a specific mission runner?
Say A is in motsu and we have a wardec up on him. There are 50 (lets assume he is in a mission hub) people doing missions there. Is there is a way I can up my chance of finding the correct one?

[Morat20]

Why are both the Amarr recon ships drone boats while the Gallente recons are either a missle boat () or a blaster boat?  This makes no sense to me.

I guess if I want to do recon cruisers and be effective I'm going to need to train Amarr racials.

I was wondering about that too, looking at the Arazu with it's dinky 5m3 drone bay. Still aiming to fly that bad boy.

[lac]

I'm a week away from recons but I'm training t2 guns first. Good idea or not?

[Kitsune]

Recons are on my "to do" list, but I won't have Cruisers V until March, thanks to a painful 19-day training time for that last point.  I'm working towards it, though.

[Morat20]

Recons are on my "to do" list, but I won't have Cruisers V until March, thanks to a painful 19-day training time for that last point.  I'm working towards it, though.

Lucky -- mine's 26, but I've got a shitty perception. That's why I went covops first (already had Frigates 5, just needed EU's 5) and will do recons next.

[bhodi]

Probing down random mission runners is easy enough once you got the scanning skills.
I was wondering if there is anything you can do to help scan down a specific mission runner?
Say A is in motsu and we have a wardec up on him. There are 50 (lets assume he is in a mission hub) people doing missions there. Is there is a way I can up my chance of finding the correct one?

Not if they change the name of their ship regularly. You should have heard Endie complain when he was trying to pin down one of the aceo guys running missions - "There's a million ravens here!"

[TheDreamr]

Why are both the Amarr recon ships drone boats while the Gallente recons are either a missle boat () or a blaster boat?  This makes no sense to me.

I guess if I want to do recon cruisers and be effective I'm going to need to train Amarr racials.

I was wondering about that too, looking at the Arazu with it's dinky 5m3 drone bay. Still aiming to fly that bad boy.

Arazu should have a 40m3 drone bay, if yours doesn't then ask your nearest Duvolle rep for a full refund.

On the whole "what recon" topic I'd honestly say don't cross-train for just one ship until you're absolutely sure you want to go down that route, it's a long and somewhat unrewarding skill train if it's just for one ship, and until you're truely proficient your extra firepower from your gang should more than make up for the lack of a drone bonus.

[Morat20]

Arazu should have a 40m3 drone bay, if yours doesn't then ask your nearest Duvolle rep for a full refund.

On the whole "what recon" topic I'd honestly say don't cross-train for just one ship until you're absolutely sure you want to go down that route, it's a long and somewhat unrewarding skill train if it's just for one ship, and until you're truely proficient your extra firepower from your gang should more than make up for the lack of a drone bonus.

It sure does -- I was thinking Helios. I probably shouldn't get Recon and Cov-ops confused. Hmm. I'll have to research ECM drones now. :)

[Zetleft]

I will definitely be on for this.  Gonna need to train up Astrometrics but at least I have plenty of time. 

[Furiously]

I'll agree with the concentrating on one ship type = mistake, unless you know that is the only type you will ever fly.

[5150]

Probing down random mission runners is easy enough once you got the scanning skills.
I was wondering if there is anything you can do to help scan down a specific mission runner?
Say A is in motsu and we have a wardec up on him. There are 50 (lets assume he is in a mission hub) people doing missions there. Is there is a way I can up my chance of finding the correct one?

If you have access to the War forum I've posted about this very topic in there.

On the subject of 'what recon' IIRC none of them get the scan time bonus of the covert ops frigate so are going to need much higher skills (or rigs) to get similar scan times.

As a general rule of thumb the 'warp while cloaked' recons are alot less offensive than the 'steal bomber' recons that cant warp while cloaked (although some are nastier than others).

The Falcon for example gets no damage bonus (unlike the Rook) has 4 high slots with a 2/2 turret/bay split & no drones and if you fit a probe launcher and a cloak you have less damage output than a Blackbird (5 highs, 3/3 split) or an Osprey (which could have 2 launchers and 2 guns plus 4 drones - if its not fitting mining lasers) the only thing in your favour is the ECM (which wont help you once drones are on you)

The Rook however has the potential to have the same missile DPS as the Caracal (with Recon 5) with 5 highs and 5 launchers until you stick a cloak and/or probe launcher on it - bear in mind however that the Caracal also gets a drone bay (albeit small) and a missile range bonus that the Rook doesn't.

I only fly the Rook/Falcon currently but if youre looking for a solo/DPS recon the Gallente ones are the best ones to go with due to drone bays and the ability to [hopefully] damp the target down below your engagement distance.

[JoeTF]

I'm probing down mission runners in game right now. It's loads of fun. Definitely worth the training time

You're using exploration or normal probes?

I have one newbie question here:
Can you do a squad warp to scan result?
and the other one:
How close to destination your target has to be to probe down his landing spot?

[5150]

I have one newbie question here:
Can you do a squad warp to scan result?
and the other one:
How close to destination your target has to be to probe down his landing spot?

Yes (if you are gang leader obviously)

The distance you land from the target is reflected by the accuracy (might be called something else) shown in the probe result window and can be improved with 1 of the skills. If you arent happy with the accuracy you could scan again and hop for a better result (if it was a deadspace target I would just be happy I got a hit and hope to be close enough to land at the gate - see below)

If the target is in deadspace you will always land at the gate unless your accuracy was so bad you werent even going to land in the deadspace grid (not actually experienced that myself just what I'd expect to happen)

[Endie]

I'm probing down mission runners in game right now. It's loads of fun. Definitely worth the training time

You're using exploration or normal probes?

I have one newbie question here:
Can you do a squad warp to scan result?
and the other one:
How close to destination your target has to be to probe down his landing spot?

Further to what 5150 says, the key to reliably nailing mission runners in deadspace is to have someone really fast with an afterburner in your gang.  When you jump through you are often decloaked by "gas clouds", and the target may be 30 or 40 km away.  That is do-able in an inty with an AB and speed mods, since your target is *never* aligned and by definition isn't keeping a pvp overview set up (there will be npcs and often large collidable structures on there for starters).  But unless he is scrambled by rats you can't expect to warp in in a battleship and reach him in time.

Sometimes the rats get the killmail, though 

And yep, as I mention in the OP, you need specialised probes like fathoms, snoops, spooks and the like.  On the upside, they are waaaay faster than exploration probes.  I think the base is ten minutes, but with ship and skill bonuses you can get that down to sub-30 seconds (the AAA probers who got MC's titan were about 28 seconds I think, with implants and maxed skills.

When one of the 2 "Ace's and 8's" pilots scarpered from our warp-in, I was able to scan down his safespot within 36 seconds, which isn't world-class, but should be enough to show why, when I was trapped in a Rokh in ED- following our disastrous fleet action a few weeks ago, I set up about 15 safespots and never stopped warping for almost an hour (and even then only missed being caught by about ten seconds, once).

[Viin]

Letsee if this works:

Skill plan for Irek Dabry

1. Astrometrics IV (2 days, 9 hours, 14 minutes, 10 seconds)
2. Astrometric Triangulation I (38 minutes, 31 seconds)
3. Astrometric Triangulation II (2 hours, 59 minutes, 24 seconds)
4. Astrometric Triangulation III (16 hours, 54 minutes, 43 seconds)
5. Astrometric Pinpointing I (38 minutes, 31 seconds)
6. Astrometric Pinpointing II (2 hours, 59 minutes, 24 seconds)
7. Astrometric Pinpointing III (16 hours, 54 minutes, 43 seconds)
8. Signal Acquisition I (57 minutes, 24 seconds)
9. Signal Acquisition II (4 hours, 47 minutes, 1 second)
10. Signal Acquisition III (1 day, 3 hours, 3 minutes, 36 seconds)
11. Covert Ops II (2 hours, 42 minutes, 49 seconds)
12. Covert Ops III (15 hours, 21 minutes, 5 seconds)

Cool!

Thanks for laying out the skills needed Endie, might as well work on this! :) (too bad I don't have an alt that can learn these soonish)

[Endie]

I have one newbie question here:
Can you do a squad warp to scan result?

I forgot: the absolute best way is what I do with BC: an alt with a clean history, an anti-pirate corp and a nice, positive concord rating in a covops who scans down the target at his leisure, blending into local, then moves 10km beyond the target from a gate and just provides a warp at ten.

The great thing about doing this with non-goons is that nobody in either of the 30-man ops, nor in our smaller hunting expeditions when griefing war targets ever wrped at zero and decloaked me...  When providing warpins with goons the key thing is to give the wwwww line in local for a warpin then immediately run away like fuck at your maximum cloaked speed to avoid the retards.

[5150]

When providing warpins with goons the key thing is to give the wwwww line in local for a warpin then immediately run away like fuck at your maximum cloaked speed to avoid the retards.

QFT

Its not just goons that have this 'issue'

[ajax34i]

Viin, don't forget that you need the Cloaking skill at 4 in order to use the cov-ops cloaking device.

[amiable]

When providing warpins with goons the key thing is to give the wwwww line in local for a warpin then immediately run away like fuck at your maximum cloaked speed to avoid the retards.

"F13:  Providing non-retarded gameplay for over 50 years..."

[Morat20]

The great thing about doing this with non-goons is that nobody in either of the 30-man ops, nor in our smaller hunting expeditions when griefing war targets ever wrped at zero and decloaked me...  When providing warpins with goons the key thing is to give the wwwww line in local for a warpin then immediately run away like fuck at your maximum cloaked speed to avoid the retards.

Oh...I'd have totally been a retard there. :)

[JoeTF]

The problem is that in pvp environment anyone smart will be constantly changing bookmarks.

When I asked about distance, well, sometimes you seem to arrive at destination before your target.