Off to get my ass kicked

[Fargull]

Chess begat Miniatures...

Got more root there Lum.  Any thing before chess?  Go?

Also, has anyone played Harpoon?  I used to visit a hobby shop in Pensacola when I was in highschool and they would have a big game of harpoon most saturday afternoons.  Five or Six guys in there forties/fifties in there for hours.  Looked damn interesting and I got the first computer version that came out and promptly got my ass handed to me six ways from Sunday.

[Paelos]

Backgammon begat Chess...

I believe that was the first board game unless I'm mistaken.

[Roac]

Backgammon begat Chess...

I believe that was the first board game unless I'm mistaken.

You are.

[Nebu]

You are.

Aren't you going to enlighten us?

[Paelos]

Yes, I am indeed. Further research indicates that it was in fact a game known as the "Royal game of Ur" supposedly dating further back than 2500 BC, as the oldest complete game.

Also Senet, played by the Egyptians is included in the running for its age and finds in tombs supposed dating back to 3100 B.C.E.

EDIT: I have a feeling Roac just wanted to be snarky.

[Jayce]

Yes, I am indeed. Further research indicates that it was in fact a game known as the "Royal game of Ur" supposedly dating further back than 2500 BC, as the oldest complete game.

Also Senet, played by the Egyptians is included in the running for its age and finds in tombs supposed dating back to 3100 B.C.E.

EDIT: I have a feeling Roac just wanted to be snarky.

"Although many countries claim to have invented it, the preponderance of evidence is that chess originated from the Indian game Chaturanga, about 1400 years ago. "

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess#History.

Note also that "checkmate" is from the Persian words "shah mat" , meaning "the king is dead".  Always thought that was cool.

[Roac]

I have a feeling Roac just wanted to be snarky.

Not wanting to be.  It's just irksome when someone tries to pass something off as fact without a lot of research.  Without cracking a book (or an internet page), you know modern backgammon isn't the oldest boardgame ever.  Nor was backgammon an ancestor to chess; there is very loose evidence that they shared a common ancestor, but geography is going to be an issue, since backgammon has strong eastern ties (Messopotamia) while chess has far east ties (China).

[Shannow]

Note also that "checkmate" is from the Persian words "shah mat" , meaning "the king is dead".  Always thought that was cool.

That's cool. Perhaps a dumb question but does that raise the possiblity that the origins of the word 'checkmate' and somewhat different from those of the two seperate words 'check' and 'mate'? I've never thought about the word 'checkmate' as its own word and now I'm intrigued.

[Jayce]

Note also that "checkmate" is from the Persian words "shah mat" , meaning "the king is dead".  Always thought that was cool.

That's cool. Perhaps a dumb question but does that raise the possiblity that the origins of the word 'checkmate' and somewhat different from those of the two seperate words 'check' and 'mate'? I've never thought about the word 'checkmate' as its own word and now I'm intrigued.

Interestingly (and I didn't know this), the word "check" in most all senses does date from "shah"  (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=check), even the monetary instrument in the sense of "a check (preventative measure) against theft".

Mate, though seems to have just come along for the ride.  The primary sense of "mate" derives from the proto-germanic "(ge)maton", "having food together" (ibid).

[Roac]

Perhaps a dumb question but does that raise the possiblity that the origins of the word 'checkmate' and somewhat different from those of the two seperate words 'check' and 'mate'?

Looks like they do have different origins, although they're both Persian.  The word "check" comes from the financial meaning of check/chque (Persian 'chek').

[Shannow]

I may not be doing any work but damnit I'm learning!

So the mate we use today in its seperate form (ie mate = friend, or to mate etc) is a germanic word.

But wait, is it 'shah mat' or 'chek mat'? The plot thickens! And is mat truely the persian word for king? And does it have a derivative in a language today? (Monarch?)

Im still boggled that I never thought long enough about the word checkmate to consider it anything but a conjuction of the words 'check' and 'mate' (and realise how that makes no sense in the first place).

[Jayce]

I may not be doing any work but damnit I'm learning!

So the mate we use today in its seperate form (ie mate = friend, or to mate etc) is a germanic word.

But wait, is it 'shah mat' or 'chek mat'? The plot thickens! And is mat truely the persian word for king? And does it have a derivative in a language today? (Monarch?)

Im still boggled that I never thought long enough about the word checkmate to consider it anything but a conjuction of the words 'check' and 'mate' (and realise how that makes no sense in the first place).

Dictionary.com agrees with me (about the middle of the page).

The word "shah" does have its analog today: remember in the 70's, the leader in Iran was called the "Shah"?  

Though I'm not sure if that was the traditional title, or whether he just chose it based on history (much like the current country of Macedonia isn't the same as the old one).

Edit: "mat" isn't the word for king, shah is.  Mat just means dead.  Which may or may not have led to the Spanish word matar, "to kill".  Not too unlikely if you remember that Spain was occupied by the Islamic Caliphate for quite a bit of time.

[Paelos]

I have a feeling Roac just wanted to be snarky.

Not wanting to be.  It's just irksome when someone tries to pass something off as fact without a lot of research.  Without cracking a book (or an internet page), you know modern backgammon isn't the oldest boardgame ever.  Nor was backgammon an ancestor to chess; there is very loose evidence that they shared a common ancestor, but geography is going to be an issue, since backgammon has strong eastern ties (Messopotamia) while chess has far east ties (China).

DEFENDER OF THE INTERNET!!!

<applaud>

EDIT: Oh and just to add further facts, ancient backgammon is the oldest board game known although only similar to our modern version, and early chess was supposedly invented in India and migrated to China.

[Fargull]

I know crap about the game, but whenever I think of china the game Go comes to mind, which seems to fall along the same lines as chess as a game of logic and strategy.

[Roac]

DEFENDER OF THE INTERNET!!!

<applaud>

No, I just deride stupid comments people make, for great justice.  The fun facts (tm) are to try and get real conversation.

EDIT: Oh and just to add further facts, ancient backgammon is the oldest board game known although only similar to our modern version, and early chess was supposedly invented in India and migrated to China.

Senet is nothing like modern backgammon.  We don't know the rules of Senet, but look at the board.  It is possible that it's an ancestor to backgammon, but the same can be said for chess.  That is, chess and backgammon are siblings at best, unrelated at worst.

[Paelos]

Meh, I just realized I was in a pissing match over historical board games, and that was enough to remind me that there are better things to worry about. Touche on the points.

[Rasix]

It's amazing that this thread started out being about miniature wargaming and actually managed to get nerdier.  Bravo.

[Fargull]

It's amazing that this thread started out being about miniature wargaming and actually managed to get nerdier.  Bravo.

Yes.. at this point I think Schild is right about the nerd point...

[HaemishM]

I'm back. I was actually back late Sunday, but missed work yesterday so no posting for me.

I ended up with 15 points out of a possible 60. There were about 20 players, and I think I was somewhere in the middle of the pack. I won 1 game 15-0, and lost the other 3 games 0-15, but felt like in all but the first game, I was competitive. The first game was against the local region's biggest asshole alive. It was at 9 am and I didn't wake up for the first 4 or so turns, at which point I'd already fucked up bad enough that my entire left flank was crumbling. Morning games own me.

It was a historical miniatures wargame, using 15mm scale miniatures, and a ruleset called DBM or De Bellius Multitudinis. Some information on the ruleset can be found here as well as links other pages on the subject. It covers most historical armies from Biblical Periods up to the late 15th century, about the time firearms began to proliferate among armies of the world in sufficient numbers. My Later Hungarians were about 1490 AD. The rules allow you to play against non-historical opponents, thus facilitating balanced tournament play. I had games against 2 Medieval German armies from about 1420 AD, a Chrsitian Nubian army from the 500 AD period (that was the one I triumphed in), and a Later Carthaginian army (not Hannibal's army, but one from his father's time period say 250 BC).

Signe's picture had the right type of miniature gaming, though that looks like either Seven Years War or Napoleonic time periods.

Those interested in miniature games that aren't GW would do well to check out The Miniatures Page, which has links to web sites, index of rule sets for different time periods, etc. I was a lot more knowledgeable about the hobby before MMOG's started sucking up all my free time. :)

EDIT: I forgot, there was also an adjunct Warhammer 40k tournament in a different room of the hotel. The room smelled like catass. The historical room was much less pungent. Historical gamers get a bad rap because our biggest con, Historicon, is traditionally in a terribly ventilated shitty location.

[WayAbvPar]

I had games against 2 Medieval German armies from about 1420 AD, a Chrsitian Nubian army from the 500 AD period (that was the one I triumphed in), and a Later Carthaginian army (not Hannibal's army, but one from his father's time period say 250 BC).

What's a Nubian?

[Paelos]

I had games against 2 Medieval German armies from about 1420 AD, a Chrsitian Nubian army from the 500 AD period (that was the one I triumphed in), and a Later Carthaginian army (not Hannibal's army, but one from his father's time period say 250 BC).

What's a Nubian?

[WayAbvPar]

I was thinking more like this-

[Paelos]

Most of the images google came up for Nubian were naked chicks. Thanks again google, for proving that I can enter anything remotely female and come up with NSFW images at my desk.

[Signe]

I had to google all this stuff.  I can't stand not knowing about things that everyone else seems so familiar with, and I have to say, it looks like a lot of fun.  Considering some of the plans and strategies I came across, I'm sure the room would have been filled with flying soldiers in a pretty short time if I were to take up a hobby like this, though.  I have the same anger management issues when I play Risk, too.  Obviously, world domination takes a cool head and a steady hand.

[Furiously]

And then you got Darth Vader, the blackest brother in the galaxy, Nubian god!

[Shannow]

Oh you'd fit quite well in with the WHM40k kiddi...I mean players..

[HaemishM]

I think one player who was playing the friend I went with actually did toss a die across the room. But for the most part, I've had much much more "sedate" and friendly games playing DBM and other historical games than the games I had with my supposed friends in WH40k (and other GW games). The rules have a lot less cheese, a lot more subtle strategies. Not that DBM is easy to read: computer programmers could teach the author's lessons in concise language. Since it isn't a game tied to a specific figure line, it's much harder for a newbie to learn about the game, pick the right figures for his chosen army and learn to play than saw Games Workshop with its ready-made one-stop shop approach. Playing competitively is even more difficult, requiring lots of practice. I've been playing for about 7 years now, with some dead time in there for EQ addiction. Even at my most n00bish, I still had fun in all but the games I played against the very few asshole players I've met.

[Pig Destroyer]

Yeah, historical miniatures players are far and away much cooler than your typical GW kid.

A very similar demographic would be Advanced Squad Leader (ASL) players.  A game I find myself quite enthralled with as of late. And, there's no painting!!

Glad you had fun Haemish.  Did you have to travel far?  Where was the tourney?  The only time of year I get to play these types of games competitively is at Origins here in Columbus during the summer.

EDIT:  Spelling is very very hard.

[Roac]

It's amazing that this thread started out being about miniature wargaming and actually managed to get nerdier.  Bravo.

Yes.. at this point I think Schild is right about the nerd point...

A website is created that hosts forums whose dedicated purpose is to house bitching about why the posting crowd feels the online fantasy/sci-fi game of their choice doesn't fit their needs, but like a crack addict, can't find a better poison.  It's not bad enough to play games to detach ourselves from reality, but we get on forums to talk about the method by which we detach ourselves from reality.  I think the deck is pretty well stacked against us.

[schild]

I've seen reports that pro sports players play MMORPGs. I haven't seen a report that they are really into miniature games. Surely they can't be total nerds....or can they?

[HaemishM]

I embrace my inner nerd with pride, displaying my geek on a distinguished shroud of dork.