Thought about quests.

[Ratman_tf]

But how can a quest be challenging?

 Even with the threat of death (with res sickness, permadeath and/or xp loss) getting killed while on a quest just means that you didn't have enough hit points.

So? Dying is failure which is a setback while others succeed. And if your amount of hitpoints is the sole determiner of success, the game is bad. In most MMORPGs your tactics are also vital. You have to make good decisions on which mobs to take down in which order, which abilities to use at certain points, where to stand, when to run left/right, and it makes a difference. Generally there is a vast combination of factors and anyone with any number of hitpoints can fail.

Gather and hunt quests are just a measure of time spent.

Defend, possibly. I'm drawing a blank on any others.

I think he's talking about the possibility of being killed, which as you say, is more a binary issue than anything. You either have enough hp to survive or you dont. Besides, even under those terms, how do you make the quest challenging for all classes to solo? Make it easy enough that a holy priest can solo it and hunters and rogues sail through without raising a sweat.

Failing in the 10th ring war was 100% about the people you brought, not necessarily any particular skill on behalf of most. Enough dps/tanking/healing and you won. Not enough. You lost.

But if you only ever succeed by throwing time or resources at a problem, everybody eventually finds out you suck. "Hey, that guy's pretty well geared, let's recruit him ... uh oh, he's just one of those." If you're all soloing time and no skill, you become kind of irrelevant in the end.

I don't get this view that "anyone can do anything in any MMORPG if they bring enough people/hitpoints". That's not how it's been for me, especially now that games have raid population caps. It's also about tactics and implementation. Your leet 200-person ring war raid fails when everyone's taking down normal giants while Narandi the Wretched smashes his way through an unhealed tank and kills Seneschal Aldikar.

I know this because I'm an Aussie. There are too few of us in our time zone. We raid the same targets as US/European zerg guilds, but often with half the people. WoW is kind of an exception because its player base is so high we can actually form larger guilds. But in other games my guild needed to find the tipping point between a good player and a bad player, and if you didn't have it, you were off the team - and we could never find enough of what was needed.

My friend the enchanter was one of the first people to hit level 65 in EverQuest PoP era, because he was really, really good at the game. He invented a charm soloing tactic that later got nerfed. When you thought you were going to wipe, he'd keep about 20-30% more mobs mezzed than any other chanter.

He was also one of the richest people on the server for the same reasons. He saw opportunities in the market where others missed them. He never needed RMT until he sold his character and equipment for US$X,000 and put the money towards college. He was just 18 but he was a smart kid.

That should and does separate people. The group who can enter an untried new zone and figure it out faster than the pile of player corpses lying at the zone-in. The raid of 40 people that wipes, versus the disciplined raid of 40 who rescue their rotting corpses.

The first people to kill Nagafen with one group. The first person to solo Nagafen. They played better, sooner than other people. The solution was not "get more fire resist items", it was a combination of items and tactics and timing, thinking outside the square.

It's quite possible to implement quests that seem "too hard". It rarely seems to happen in WoW - they don't like to limit your levelling progress. But sometimes they do have the guts to really make something difficult like the first fight in Blackwing Lair used to be (can't remember name). Some guilds will do it in fewer attempts with better leadership and teamwork.

Is this not the definition of challenge? Can this not be how more quests are tuned?

But is it fun?

[Tale]

Quote more.

[Slyfeind]

I never did the elite quests in WoW. I didn't have a guild to help me level, and pick-up groups suck.

If a quest requires extraordinary tactics to defeat, players will usually pass it by and stick to the easier ones. Players might go back to complete quests they passed by, when they've outgrown them.

"Anyone can do anything in any MMORPG if they bring enough people/hitpoints." I think that's what a lot of players want. They like to feel that time invested will pay off somehow. They like applying what they've done. I've never gone on a raid in WoW without knowing what happens before I get there. There are no surprises, no moments of "Holy crap he just lit the floor on fire!" or "What the hell, we're in a PLAY?!" It's always textbook, by the numbers. This is what a lot of players pay for.

[Phred]

The first people to kill Nagafen with one group. The first person to solo Nagafen. They played better, sooner than other people. The solution was not "get more fire resist items", it was a combination of items and tactics and timing, thinking outside the square.

It's quite possible to implement quests that seem "too hard". It rarely seems to happen in WoW - they don't like to limit your levelling progress. But sometimes they do have the guts to really make something difficult like the first fight in Blackwing Lair used to be (can't remember name). Some guilds will do it in fewer attempts with better leadership and teamwork.

Is this not the definition of challenge? Can this not be how more quests are tuned?

I agree with you 100% but this thread started about solo quests, I thought, where all your examples are for group encounters, minus the guy who soloed nagafen, who mainly did it via twinking and bringing lots of heal potions.

For solo quests that will challenge you, check out the darkrune summoning quests in Blade's Edge mountains. http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32602#comments. It's a log involved solo quest where you mind control a demon to fight for you. When it's not bugged out on your server it's worth doing.

Quite a few of the epic flight form quests for druid also get fairly difficult at times as well. One where you fight a summoned mobs has a ton of adds, who can only be handled by using the bear form demoralizing roar, while another summoned mob does way too much melee damage to be tanked but takes extra damage from nature spells, forcing you to root and nuke. The quest line basically forces the druid to use every facet of his character as well as figuring out the weakness of the mobs. One quest even makes you use aquatic form to swim down a river while dodging depth charges and frost traps.

[Phred]

For me, the most painfull part of a quest system is the repeatable story arcs.   It just screams single player RPG, which I hate.  Quests are not the unmovable foundation of mmorpg.  Why even bother.   I'd much prefer hunting in a zone like we did in early games.  Quest grinding need to get the hell out of my games.
You should never be able to get the same text twice.

The problem with grinding in a zone is that players quickly figure out which zone has the optimal exp/loot and flock to it en mass. Without at least the tiny amount of socialization from grouping, this quickly devolves into a kill stealing, griefing mess, which is not something a game company want's to force their cs  staff to deal with. A good recent example was in WoW in the blade's edge mountains where people on the wrangling rays quest started griefing each other by killing rays other players were taming.

[DarkSign]

Dynamic quests are possible. Read the pdf at the end of this article. Also, from the maker of GearHead, an article about dynamic quest formation.

You'd think that Blizzard would pump some money back into R&D with all the cash they're making, but profits are king, right? For quests to make any kind of meaningful progressions, it's going to take NPCs in a world who follow a schedule (Gothic, anyone) and have changing need-states.

[tmp]

You'd think that Blizzard would pump some money back into R&D with all the cash they're making, but profits are king, right? For quests to make any kind of meaningful progressions, it's going to take NPCs in a world who follow a schedule (Gothic, anyone) and have changing need-states.

Sims have changing need-states. They have schedule they'll try to meet if not interrupted. Their need-states are essentially mini-quests they throw at you (make some money, get that other sim in the sack, get me a new toy, go to the bathroom)  Do you feel like playing the sims and trying to fullfill their RNG needs is significantly better than current MMO quest model? Honestly not sure, given at the end of day it's the player themselves that breaks suspension of disbelief in the whole system, since they are perfectly aware the "person in need" is simple piece of code and lookup tables, with no actual needs or feelings to speak of.

[tmp]

On different note: player generated content, Holic Online (click the UCD tab for the overview) ... nothing particularly special or new but guess they're trying.

[Ratman_tf]

You'd think that Blizzard would pump some money back into R&D with all the cash they're making, but profits are king, right? For quests to make any kind of meaningful progressions, it's going to take NPCs in a world who follow a schedule (Gothic, anyone) and have changing need-states.

Sims have changing need-states. They have schedule they'll try to meet if not interrupted. Their need-states are essentially mini-quests they throw at you (make some money, get that other sim in the sack, get me a new toy, go to the bathroom)  Do you feel like playing the sims and trying to fullfill their RNG needs is significantly better than current MMO quest model? Honestly not sure, given at the end of day it's the player themselves that breaks suspension of disbelief in the whole system, since they are perfectly aware the "person in need" is simple piece of code and lookup tables, with no actual needs or feelings to speak of.

Sims 2 sims are very expressive. With the "simlish" and facial expressions. They did a really good job of making those little virtual dolls seem at least a little like people. "They" say that 90% of communication is tone of voice and body language.

I have no clue how that could map to MMORPGs and quests...

[tmp]

Sims 2 sims are very expressive. With the "simlish" and facial expressions. They did a really good job of making those little virtual dolls seem at least a little like people. "They" say that 90% of communication is tone of voice and body language.

I have no clue how that could map to MMORPGs and quests...

I was just wondering if having sim-like NPCs that wander around the MMO town and have randomly generated quests to fetch them things and escort them places would really be so much more immersive and/or fun than having these NPCs in fixed spot and with fixed wishes. Or would the players just get pissed that not only the quests are usual repetitive garbage, but now they also have to run around town in search of roaming dispensers ... as that's what they'd still be seen as, piece-of-code quest dispensers.

Also thinking of it more, ain't Pirates of Burning Sea using 'randomized' quests where the details are determined by RNG... and people still complained these are just repetitive mad-libs no different from the fixed questing? Mainly due to the players easily seeing through the facade of 'dynamic quests' and realizing they're just as meaningless as the usual 'kill 10 rats' stuff.

[Tmon]

I was just wondering if having sim-like NPCs that wander around the MMO town and have randomly generated quests to fetch them things and escort them places would really be so much more immersive and/or fun than having these NPCs in fixed spot and with fixed wishes. Or would the players just get pissed that not only the quests are usual repetitive garbage, but now they also have to run around town in search of roaming dispensers ... as that's what they'd still be seen as, piece-of-code quest dispensers.

UO had this back in the day, led to people wlaking through towns spamming "I will take thee" or later "Vendor bank Guards I will take thee" and leading trains of NPCs hither and yon/  They also had quests where NPCs would ask for the head of randomc NPC x.  Problem was killing friendly NPCs was a one way ticket to either getting guard whacked or becoming red and then getting guard whacked. 

[Slyfeind]

Also thinking of it more, ain't Pirates of Burning Sea using 'randomized' quests where the details are determined by RNG... and people still complained these are just repetitive mad-libs no different from the fixed questing? Mainly due to the players easily seeing through the facade of 'dynamic quests' and realizing they're just as meaningless as the usual 'kill 10 rats' stuff.

Nope, PoBS has hand-scripted quests. But yeah, I'd say random quests (a la SWG) are even more meaningless than scripted ones, because the devs couldn't be bothered to make them. At least with scripted content, someone once upon a time thought it was a neat little story, and that at least means something.

[palmer_eldritch]

I was just wondering if having sim-like NPCs that wander around the MMO town and have randomly generated quests to fetch them things and escort them places would really be so much more immersive and/or fun than having these NPCs in fixed spot and with fixed wishes. Or would the players just get pissed that not only the quests are usual repetitive garbage, but now they also have to run around town in search of roaming dispensers ... as that's what they'd still be seen as, piece-of-code quest dispensers.

UO had this back in the day, led to people wlaking through towns spamming "I will take thee" or later "Vendor bank Guards I will take thee" and leading trains of NPCs hither and yon/  They also had quests where NPCs would ask for the head of randomc NPC x.  Problem was killing friendly NPCs was a one way ticket to either getting guard whacked or becoming red and then getting guard whacked. 

UO's original design was far more ambitious, according to Raph Koster. NPCs would not only have needs or desires, which could change, but they would identify the things getting in the way of fulfilling those desires and ask the players to help them out.

For example:

Both Fred and Bob would DESIRE (to be crude) HUMANFEMALE. They would both search around for an object that met their desire, which would mean they would both hang around a female human NPC whenever they weren’t hungry. However, if they found one that satisfied their desire (probably with a bit of a random roll) they would fixate on only that NPC, and poor Nellie would find that both Bob and Fred hung around her a lot.

Now, HUMANFEMALE is a consumable resource. Bob, when around Nellie, is actually reducing it. And that means, when you talk to Fred, he would be able to say “”I’s gots me some Bob issues; filthy buggers’re eatin’ muh Nellie! I’ll pay ye ta ’sterminate’im!” (or something of the sort). Bob would be able to say the same thing in reverse. You could even solve the problem by finding something else for one of the two swains to do. Even more interesting — if the dragon came along and ate Nellie, both Bob and Fred would be the first in line to seek revenge, or give a reward to a player who tackled the dragon problem.

http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/06/05/uos-resource-system-part-3/

Perhaps unsurprisingly, this never made it into the game. However, this was more than ten years ago and perhaps today's servers would be capable of running this kind of thing. Whether programming it in would be more rewarding than creating static quests, in terms of money spent vs money extracted from gamers, I dunno.

It does seem to me though that MMOs are going backwards rather than forwards in terms of design. Raph didn't achieve half of what he wanted but at least he thought big. Are there any MMOs on the horizon which have anything remotely like this kind of ambition?

[Sir Fodder]

Yep, going backwards. I thought  I was a fan of the genre 10 years ago, such hopes for a bright future, not so much these days. I've tried all the releases and I could lately and nothing but *yawn*. I'm not sure I understand some of what he is saying but Raph seems to touch on this in his WiM talk. (edit: This report of Raph's talk made it more understandable to me, I love this part; "... It’s not about virtual worlds; it’s about the real world. It’s about people. That’s what makes virtual worlds the killer app. It’s us. It’s other people...", Not to derail this thread though, I always find the discussions about dynamic type quest stuff fascinating...).

[tmp]

It does seem to me though that MMOs are going backwards rather than forwards in terms of design.

Maybe not as much backward but rather in different direction -- instead of sandbox filled with scripted people that can act and react to stuff in unpredictable ways, it's now more of amusement park ride where every customer gets the same, carefully tailored experience.