Leveling is good now.

[WindupAtheist]

WoW loot is so boring.  I swear there's like five different item properties in the entire game.

[slog]

Fair enough, but it's a bit harder than all of that.  I play shadowpriest/rogue 2v2 and our team hovers around 1750-1800.  Yet, I see a few shadowpriest/rogue teams above 2200.  What are they doing differently than us?  We're just not as good as them.  I understand what you're saying, you bring forth valid criticisms.  But I definitely feel as if there is skill involved in what I'm doing when I PvP. 

What's your resilience?

[Rasix]

WoW loot is so boring.  I swear there's like five different item properties in the entire game.

Whenever they've had quirky loot that did interesting things, it would end up feeling the hard end of the nerf bat.  Creativity only works until a lot of morons start whining.

[Chimpy]

WoW loot is so boring.  I swear there's like five different item properties in the entire game.

Whenever they've had quirky loot that did interesting things, it would end up feeling the hard end of the nerf bat.  Creativity only works until a lot of morons start whining.

Or it sucked so royally/didn't work at all. Which lead to a lot of other morons whining.


Basically, anything interesting gets nerfed or now, (in the case of that legendary bow) is actually a sidegrade at best to the vanilla stuff already in the game to pre-empt the moron whining.

[dusematic]

Fair enough, but it's a bit harder than all of that.  I play shadowpriest/rogue 2v2 and our team hovers around 1750-1800.  Yet, I see a few shadowpriest/rogue teams above 2200.  What are they doing differently than us?  We're just not as good as them.  I understand what you're saying, you bring forth valid criticisms.  But I definitely feel as if there is skill involved in what I'm doing when I PvP. 

What's your resilience?

407

[slog]

Fair enough, but it's a bit harder than all of that.  I play shadowpriest/rogue 2v2 and our team hovers around 1750-1800.  Yet, I see a few shadowpriest/rogue teams above 2200.  What are they doing differently than us?  We're just not as good as them.  I understand what you're saying, you bring forth valid criticisms.  But I definitely feel as if there is skill involved in what I'm doing when I PvP. 

What's your resilience?

407

Maybe your rogue sucks?

[Dren]

Fair enough, but it's a bit harder than all of that.  I play shadowpriest/rogue 2v2 and our team hovers around 1750-1800.  Yet, I see a few shadowpriest/rogue teams above 2200.  What are they doing differently than us?  We're just not as good as them.  I understand what you're saying, you bring forth valid criticisms.  But I definitely feel as if there is skill involved in what I'm doing when I PvP. 

What's your resilience?

407

Maybe your rogue sucks?

I'm pretty sure he's saying they suck as a team, yes.  I took it as saying once the items are even on both sides, it comes down to player skill and knowledge.  I tend to agree. Not that they suck.  I can't talk with my best score being 1500.  You know, when you start a team?

[Zetor]

Yes, there's a "skill differential" even when both sides are evenly geared. Positioning, timing, coordination, that sort of thing; and I don't deny that high-end arena players have better reflexes, class knowledge (both of theirs and others'), UI setups, macros, gear, synergy, whatever. However, it's a very small difference compared to class, gear and even racial differences.
Undead warlock + undead shadowpriest vs gnome warlock + human shadowpriest is an easier win for the first team due to multiple fear immunities; gnome mage + gnome rogue vs troll mage + troll rogue is an easier win for the first team due to multiple root breaks, denying shatter combos, etc. Pit a 2100-rated rogue+rogue team against a 1850-rated warrior+druid team, is your money on the rogues?

A very big factor in WOW pvp is latency. I personally play from Europe with a 500 [sometimes spikes of 600-700] ping, and it's definitely holding me back and resulting in very very annoying situations (ie. when I interrupt a spell and it still goes through), not to mention that my global cooldown is 2 seconds to begin with. There is no ability queuing, so there's no way around this.

In complete mirror matches (including race/faction and access to high level raid gear) it usually comes down to little things and just pure random luck; in a SLwarlock/paladin 2v2 it'd be the warlock switching in spell-penetration gear to get past the enemy warlock's resistances [+shadow resistance aura], synchronizing crowd control with back to back fears/hammer of justice on the paladin when going in for the kill, being able to drink and regain mana (like, say, getting the enemy felhunter banished for a while) while the other paladin is forced to stay in combat, using LOS better, using a pet survivability trinket vs. a damage one, etc.
 
The combination of these things would be "outplaying" our "out-skilling" the enemy team, but really, it's such a small part of the overall picture that I still don't think WOW's pvp is anything special, not while "counter-comps" and "random numbers" [did I crit that shadowbolt? zomg we win! Did he resist my deathcoil? zomg we lose! ;(] rule the scene.

BTW, I say this as an "ok" pvper, I definitely don't think I would be as good with my warlock as the various gladiator-ranked locks, even if I had their gear, teammates and latency. I'm just saying that the "skill difference" is overshadowed by other factors.


-- Z.

[Dren]

Latency has always been a deciding factor.  We had a rogue bounce around our screens the other night.  All I could say, was it is either some new speedhack or his connection was just a lot better than ours and he had running speed maxed with items and chants.

[Xanthippe]

Latency has always been a deciding factor.  We had a rogue bounce around our screens the other night.  All I could say, was it is either some new speedhack or his connection was just a lot better than ours and he had running speed maxed with items and chants.

I think there's a movement exploit some people use.  I've seen it in the battlegrounds on certain players.  I have no idea what it is, but you can't target them.

[Righ]

They are probably slowing certain packets using a proxy server that warden cannot detect. I've read that WoW sends updates to the clients with the slowest response time first in order to 'balance' PvP. I have seen people who cannot be targeted bouncing around - typically DoT classes, presumably because they don't need to remain engaged in combat after the DoTs are unleashed.

[dusematic]

Yes, there's a "skill differential" even when both sides are evenly geared. Positioning, timing, coordination, that sort of thing; and I don't deny that high-end arena players have better reflexes, class knowledge (both of theirs and others'), UI setups, macros, gear, synergy, whatever. However, it's a very small difference compared to class, gear and even racial differences.
Undead warlock + undead shadowpriest vs gnome warlock + human shadowpriest is an easier win for the first team due to multiple fear immunities; gnome mage + gnome rogue vs troll mage + troll rogue is an easier win for the first team due to multiple root breaks, denying shatter combos, etc. Pit a 2100-rated rogue+rogue team against a 1850-rated warrior+druid team, is your money on the rogues?

A very big factor in WOW pvp is latency. I personally play from Europe with a 500 [sometimes spikes of 600-700] ping, and it's definitely holding me back and resulting in very very annoying situations (ie. when I interrupt a spell and it still goes through), not to mention that my global cooldown is 2 seconds to begin with. There is no ability queuing, so there's no way around this.

In complete mirror matches (including race/faction and access to high level raid gear) it usually comes down to little things and just pure random luck; in a SLwarlock/paladin 2v2 it'd be the warlock switching in spell-penetration gear to get past the enemy warlock's resistances [+shadow resistance aura], synchronizing crowd control with back to back fears/hammer of justice on the paladin when going in for the kill, being able to drink and regain mana (like, say, getting the enemy felhunter banished for a while) while the other paladin is forced to stay in combat, using LOS better, using a pet survivability trinket vs. a damage one, etc.
 
The combination of these things would be "outplaying" our "out-skilling" the enemy team, but really, it's such a small part of the overall picture that I still don't think WOW's pvp is anything special, not while "counter-comps" and "random numbers" [did I crit that shadowbolt? zomg we win! Did he resist my deathcoil? zomg we lose! ;(] rule the scene.

BTW, I say this as an "ok" pvper, I definitely don't think I would be as good with my warlock as the various gladiator-ranked locks, even if I had their gear, teammates and latency. I'm just saying that the "skill difference" is overshadowed by other factors.


-- Z.

No doubt.  It's almost impossible for us to beat a well played druid/warrior team for instance.  I wouldn't say someone above a 1700 rating "sucks" but I guess I couldn't argue with such an assertion if it came from someone who was 2k+.  I do think that elements of chance make for a better game.  This is why games such as Mario Kart are fun.  Skill comes into play but someone of competence will be able to beat an expert player from time to time.  But where I disagree is this quote: 


"In complete mirror matches (including race/faction and access to high level raid gear) it usually comes down to little things and just pure random luck; in a SLwarlock/paladin 2v2 it'd be the warlock switching in spell-penetration gear to get past the enemy warlock's resistances [+shadow resistance aura], synchronizing crowd control with back to back fears/hammer of justice on the paladin when going in for the kill, being able to drink and regain mana (like, say, getting the enemy felhunter banished for a while) while the other paladin is forced to stay in combat, using LOS better, using a pet survivability trinket vs. a damage one, etc."


I think that stuff is skill.  A lot of that stuff is hard to do, especially with people trying to kill you as you communicate to your team just how you plan on preventing that from happening. 

[dusematic]

Double post

[Chimpy]

Resto druid + just about any dps class = a nearly unbeatable 2v2 comp simply because of all of the tricks a druid has in their arsenal: Several short cast or instant heals/HoTs, 2 forms of CC usable in arenas, the ability to just change forms instantly to break CC, and poison/curse removal. Oh and I think Rebirth is usable now since it has a 20m cooldown, no?

[dusematic]

No, the max CD allowable in arenas in 15 minutes. 

[Fordel]

The bitching would increase a thousand fold if Druids could rez in the Arena. Like, flood the forums and crash all the servers with thousands of pink haired gnomes kind of bitching.

[Zetor]

In complete mirror matches (including race/faction and access to high level raid gear) it usually comes down to little things and just pure random luck; in a SLwarlock/paladin 2v2 it'd be the warlock switching in spell-penetration gear to get past the enemy warlock's resistances [+shadow resistance aura], synchronizing crowd control with back to back fears/hammer of justice on the paladin when going in for the kill, being able to drink and regain mana (like, say, getting the enemy felhunter banished for a while) while the other paladin is forced to stay in combat, using LOS better, using a pet survivability trinket vs. a damage one, etc.
 
The combination of these things would be "outplaying" our "out-skilling" the enemy team, but really, it's such a small part of the overall picture that I still don't think WOW's pvp is anything special, not while "counter-comps" and "random numbers" [did I crit that shadowbolt? zomg we win! Did he resist my deathcoil? zomg we lose! ;(] rule the scene.

I think that stuff is skill.  A lot of that stuff is hard to do, especially with people trying to kill you as you communicate to your team just how you plan on preventing that from happening. 

Read the bolded paragraph. :P I agree, it's just that these things just don't matter in most of the arena matchups.

Yeah, a top-rated rogue/rogue 2v2 will beat 1700-1800 rated warrior/pally teams all day long (watch Tosan's Renataki video for lulz) due to gear/skill advantage and maybe even get wins against higher rated teams, but that needs the warrior combo to make some SEVERE mistakes during the course of play (which would be 'lack of skill' on the warrior team's side or 'skill' at misdirection on the rogues' side).

On the random note: randomness makes a game fun, but excessive randomness (relying on procs, % chance talents, etc) doesn't make for competitive pvp, and I never believed in the "randomness gives us unpredictable situations, so player skill comes into play on how to react to those situations" angle -- everyone has backup plans, but what randomness usually does is make a team win or lose. Random crit streaks in TF2 are part of the game's pacing, but they never decide a game by themselves. GW pvp has barely any randomness, which is how it should be I think...

Anecdote: yesterday my 3v3 'just-for-fun' [resto shaman, ele shaman, shadow priest; as you can see, it's not competitive at all, it's mostly just to get us points] alt team in the 1700s geared in a mix of s1-s2-s3 and kara gear fought a team of these three guys (some of them are in pve sets / specs, they were using full season3 including weapons/shoulders and the warrior was MS with s3 mace):
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Bloodscalp&n=Syth
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Bloodscalp&n=Bigmick
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Bloodscalp&n=Odelay
Should be an auto-loss right? That combo should beat ours hands down and they WAY overgeared us (full season3 + BT gear), not to mention they were good (the warrior kept both our casters locked down and spell reflected most of the big nukes, the healers were dodging every mana burn even with earthbind down). The warrior whittled down our sp while the two healers kept pillar dancing and I (resto shaman) was almost out of mana..... then suddenly our sp got a blackout proc on him, catching him in zerker stance and burst him to 60%ish, our shaman popped every cooldown he had, got a lightning overload on his EM chain lightning... and the warrior dropped. We got 28 points for that team, btw. Did we deserve it? I don't think so. :p


-- Z.

[MrHat]

Nice win.  Things like that can happen.

I've found that 3v3 is really where the fun is at.  It's not too hard to focus (omg 5 dudesz) and it's not imba 2v2 (2v2 is akin to dueling, it's almost 90% set up).  3v3 is fun because you can really do some neat stuff and pull out some fun wins.

[Dren]

Nice win.  Things like that can happen.

I've found that 3v3 is really where the fun is at.  It's not too hard to focus (omg 5 dudesz) and it's not imba 2v2 (2v2 is akin to dueling, it's almost 90% set up).  3v3 is fun because you can really do some neat stuff and pull out some fun wins.

I think I agree with this too (I'm early to PvP so I'm still on the fence.)  I think this shows up in BG's as well.  Typically, you have (3-4)v(3-4) matches all over the place in WSG, AB, and EOTS.  Those seem to be the matches that really make or break a capped node/flag.  Yes, a Zerg happens here and there, but for a well balanced and succesful campaign, it's the small successful groups that are the heroes.  Those encounters are typically the most fun whether you win or lose too.

The 5v5 matches are so chaotic and one little slip-up means a complete wipe most the time.  I've only just started 5v5, so the jury is still out for me.  It seems like if your initial plan going into a 5v5 goes wrong at all, there isn't enough time to react and come up with a different plan.  Then it all comes down to instinct, etc.  That's probably the weakness.  Getting 2 or 3 people together that mesh and have good instincts is a LOT easier than getting 5.

I don't mind 2v2.  I especially like that it is easy to get your matches in for the week. (Queue times suck though)

[dusematic]

You have to wait for all the crazy Asians to get on at 3 AM.  Queue times are under  a minute in the dead of night. 

[Fabricated]

WoW loot is so boring.  I swear there's like five different item properties in the entire game.

It gets better as you get higher in level. There's a few new properties that Blizzard is throwing into the mix now to make items less samey and to make similar level items different. Spell Haste, Melee Haste, Ignore Armor, etc.

They used to have a lot of weapons/armor with oddball process effects (like poisons, extra hits, etc) but half the time they're useless and the other half are broken to the point where they get nerfed later.

[SurfD]

i wish they would add loot that would give you a bonus point to 1 talent or something (like 1 point in a tier 1 talent)  Just to mix things up a bit.

[Simond]

Going back to the original topic - dinged 70 on my rogue last night (after a mini-burnout at about L65 where I didn't seriously play for a month or so) with 1.1K gold* and just over halfway through BEM. I started in HFP after just dinging 62. If I'd actually done some instance runs, I'd probably have got to 70 before leaving Nagrand.

*I now have ~400 gold and a AH-bought flying machine.