Leveling is good now.

[Dren]

I agree with Nebu on this.  Yes, much of what they design strings you along for longer subs, but many games have gone the route of making success depend truly on your personal skill at playing a game.  Those games have not had the mass appeal that diku type games have had (talking MMO's here.)  There are far more people that have no skill or do not want to work at having the skill than those that can just jump into a game and wtfpwnzzor people.

Plus, twitch games where everyone is on the same playing field all the time, no matter what you do have no longevity.  They are fun to play in short little bursts of interests, but play it month to month everyday?  I don't think so.

FPS's have what you are describing yet nobody builds up a business model to supply huge servers with a monthly fee basically because they know it won't work.  Planetside has this, yes.  Do they make money?  Yes.  Are they niche?  Yes.  I have not played it for one reason only, too little depth.  I'm not going to pay a subsciption for a game I KNOW I'm not going to play for more than a month.

Hell, CoH/CoX attempts a middle ground and failed in my opinion.  I so want that game to be good to suck me back in, but the lack of depth and the seemingly lack of advancement versus time played kills it for me.  I have limited time to play games.  I want to feel that the time I spent got me someplace.  This can be player skill along with everything else, but player skill has a cap (as Nebu said,)  you get to a level of expertise that improves very slightly with hours played.  Without anything else feeling like advancement, my experience is faded.

I don't think I'm alone.  In an atmosphere of limited game play, time is king.  If you're time is not treated well by the game, subscriptions will fall.  If the disadvantage to this is the lack of rewards to skilled gameplay, it is acceptable.  TIME is king and non-negotiable.

P.S. Before somebody brings up Old-School UO again.  Back then it WAS about player skill, but even moreso was player's connection speed to the internet.  Again, something I couldn't control and no matter how much time I spent perfectling my character or player skill, I couldn't compete against an enemy blinking around my screen and putting 3 X "Corp Por" in the air at once.

[Righ]

Righ: I think I see what you mean and you're right to a point.  Having been an athlete at a very competitive level I can tell you that there becomes a point where your skill caps and all the time in the world won't help beyond that.  i.e. no matter how much I play FPS, I'll never be able to beat Schild and his roommates.  With the endless gear loop you can always increase gear with an associated time investment making the disparity between skill cap and gear cap recognizeable. 

Yes, but why would that matter? People who are skilled beyond the ability of the average punter to train to are a rare breed. Whether they have to get as much gear as you do or not, they'll still beat you - provided that they learn the game mechanics sufficiently. Reducing the number of them that are prepared to compete by putting the gear mountain in place does little to make it "anybody's game". As an old fart with slower reactions than in my youth, I beat people who should be physically more advantaged all the time - because I understand the game mechanics better. That's part of the 'skill' too, and probably a more important part than the physical condition of the player - after all, this is an RPG with cool downs and simplistic controls, not Project Gotham Racing.

[Valmorian]

Val: It's easy to make the effects of gear and time shallower from a math sense (log scales vs linear scales for example).  I appreciate what you're trying to say, but also think that you're thinking inside the standard MMO box, if you will. 

I've already pointed out several times that if you remove a steady power progression that you end up with problems in the PvE game.  The only thing keeping level 1 characters from going out and killing onyxia is the power difference.  If you make it sufficiently shallow, then all game content is available from the very beginning.  While I am sure many would love this, it's pretty much been assumed that gating your content is somehow necessary.

I have also said that if you remove the systems that people find compelling in the PvE experience, it is fairly easy to have a "fair" PvP system.

[Nebu]

Simond, you're still failing to accept a very simple concept: It's not fun to be in a state of taking damage while being unable to react.  It's a game.  The only person enjoying that exchange is the one dealing the damage.  How am I failing to make this clear?

Second, you're correct on the achiever being popular thing.  I'm not disagreeing.  What I am saying is that achievement and PvP are difficult bedfellows.  I'm not sure how it is that you keep missing this.  As to your points 5) & 6) I agree that it would be a bad thing FINANCIALLY.  It would, however, be a good thing in terms of pure skill-based PvP gameplay, which was the point I was trying to make.  It will never happen, but it would improve the quality of play for those that really enjoy skill based pvp (the minority).

Noone has to convince me why WoW is successful.  More people like ding gratz and slot machine style advancement than they do skill-oriented play.  I get that one loud and clear.  It's why I have so little hope for my gaming enjoyment in future titles.  Kids today want to "Pwn with impunity" rather than enjoy the challenge of facing a competitive situation.  We all are clear on this point.   Since they will alwasy have more free time than I will, I'll just have to accept the fact that my status in any future MMO will be as a second class citizen.  

[Dren]

Simond, my suggestion for limiting stunlocks wasn't for 1v1 battles.  In fact, none of my discussion is based on 1v1.

Also, limiting CC in the game would have to have other adjustments made to the game.  I would think that would be obvious.

Any ability to CC should always allow a character to do something to continue to be viable in a fight.  To provide abilities that completely lock you down from participating in the fight at all is just not fun and gets abused.  It is just that ability that makes some classes and builds true PvP while others are just cannon fodder.

[Nebu]

[I've already pointed out several times that if you remove a steady power progression that you end up with problems in the PvE game.  The only thing keeping level 1 characters from going out and killing onyxia is the power difference.  If you make it sufficiently shallow, then all game content is available from the very beginning.  While I am sure many would love this, it's pretty much been assumed that gating your content is somehow necessary.

I have also said that if you remove the systems that people find compelling in the PvE experience, it is fairly easy to have a "fair" PvP system.

I think we agree then.  WoW is designed based on PvE.  For that it has done a masterful job.  PvP, not so much.

[Nebu]

Yes, but why would that matter?

Two people with identical working knowledge of the game mechanics meet.  They are the same class, with the same spec.  The one with the better gear will win 90% of the time.  This is the crux of my point. 

[Righ]

Plus, twitch games where everyone is on the same playing field all the time, no matter what you do have no longevity. 

I think it was Nebu that invoked the spectre of twitch. I wasn't really trying to bring FPS and whatnot into this when I mentioned skill. Knowledge of the game mechanics is a learned skill. Think chess, not track and field.

As Valmorian says above, its about gating the content - and its for the purpose of monthly income for the game company, not for our benefit. You can allow people to play on a more even PvP playing field by reducing the gear advantages and/or by limiting the engagements. It is possible to design a non-twitch MMORPG that has gated content and significant character development that allows relative newcomers to compete against long time players and still provide compelling content for those players. WoW just hasn't done spectacularly well in this regard. Other games have done better, but because they don't have 10 million subs, they're shite. 

[Nebu]

I don't want to create the illusion that twitch = skill here.  Righ is correct in stating that there are MANY types of skill that aren't = twitch.  Strategy, knowledge, etc are all skills.

[Simond]

Doesn't that mean that "being able to get better gear" = "skill" as well, though? 

[Righ]

Two people with identical working knowledge of the game mechanics meet.  They are the same class, with the same spec.  The one with the better gear will win 90% of the time.  This is the crux of my point. 

I understand. What I'm not understanding is why that is more meritorious than the more coordinated, younger, alert one winning 90% of the time. I appreciate that its harder to sell your game to stoners at this point, but frankly the working knowledge part comes into play more often than the sharper reflexes one once you reduce the impact of gear.

[Nebu]

Doesn't that mean that "being able to get better gear" = "skill" as well, though? 

In a sense, yes.  I'd suggest that it takes significantly less skill, but it does take a small amount of skill.  The primary component to obtaining gear is really time.  This is why you see fewer players with top tier gear.  There are fewer people with that amount of available time rather than there being a skill requirement as the gatekeeper.

[Nebu]

I understand. What I'm not understanding is why that is more meritorious than the more coordinated, younger, alert one winning 90% of the time. I appreciate that its harder to sell your game to stoners at this point, but frankly the working knowledge part comes into play more often than the sharper reflexes one once you reduce the impact of gear.

I agree with you 100% here Righ.  I want the person with the most knowledge and the best strategy to win rather than the one with the fastest reflexes.  My point is that even a solid understanding of game mechanics and tactics isn't enough to close the gap in gear given to someone with infinite time to acquire gear. 



Edit: I don't know why I'm even arguing about all of this.  WoW is a good game.  They do many things well.  I guess it's just the frustration of seeing it come so close to what would be an ideal for me and then fall short.  So please don't take any of my ramblings personally. 

[Valmorian]

Other games have done better, but because they don't have 10 million subs, they're shite. 

Heh.  I actually think that if DAOC was as polished as WoW, I'd still be playing it. 

One thing I do find interesting with regards to PvP in WoW vs. DAOC.. All my experiences soloing in the frontier in DAOC ended in a quick and painful death at the hands of groups every time PvP came around.  In WoW, I've been ganked now and then, but I've also had a TON of world PvP battles where I was competative with the opponents..

[Righ]

I agree with you 100% here Righ.  I want the person with the most knowledge and the best strategy to win rather than the one with the fastest reflexes.  My point is that even a solid understanding of game mechanics and tactics isn't enough to close the gap in gear given to someone with infinite time to acquire gear. 

Well, that's already favored by the type of game - MMORPGs are complex by nature of having extensive rules and mechanics but have controls that are relatively simple and which often place limitations that don't favor 'twitch' reflexes - such as timers on abilities. Once you remove gear/level overheads, you're left with a PvP game that strongly favors those who invest time and energy in understanding the complex tactics and character development over those who can move rapidly and click quickly. Of course the people who can master both will beat you. Fortunately they're rare because they're kicking ass in shooters or actually enjoying the fresh air. :)

However, just as you can create a game where a level 100 player cannot attack a level 1 player, so can gear or any other incremental improvement be added to a player's rating for purposes of same PvP comparison.

[Dren]

We are talking in too many extremes here.  Yes if two equal players fought at each end of the spectrum of gear, the better geared would win 90% of the time.  However, that is a pretty rare case.  Players don't walk in BG's or Arenas naked.  They have gear.  They probably have pretty good gear.

That same statement isn't true for two players, one with Season 1 gear and one with Season 3 gear.  Sure Season 3 has advantages, but it doesn't preclude a win.  The ability to get Season 1 gear is pretty easy guys.  I have two pieces of Season 1 now and have invested very little time.  I would have to say that the same amount of time it has taken me to learn the ropes and get more knowledge, strategy, twitch skill, I've also improved my gear to further improve my odds.  It all goes hand in hand.

[Simond]

Plus, you know, Blizzard are adding blue PvP armour to the Outland rep vendors in 2.4 so you'll be able to buy an adequate (at least) PvP suit for gold - no more drudging through umpteen BGs in PvE greens.

[Merusk]

Plus, you know, Blizzard are adding blue PvP armour to the Outland rep vendors in 2.4 so you'll be able to buy an adequate (at least) PvP suit for gold - no more drudging through umpteen BGs in PvE greens.

Wait, what?  Crap, I keep hearing all this stuff about 2.4 that sounds like some pretty significant changes, but I haven't looked up the 'coming soon' info and can't while at work.  Damn this is a biggie.

[Righ]

However, that is a pretty rare case.  Players don't walk in BG's or Arenas naked.  They have gear.  They probably have pretty good gear.

PvP happens outside BGs & Arenas. I know it is highly unpopular in WoW, but I'm more interested in world PvP than BGs. And I'm really not interested in Arenas at all. My best times in WoW have been fighting for control of Halaa. Sadly the few rewards are not even up to the standards of mid 60s PvE instances.

At some point people walk into BGs with pretty bad gear and get beaten like a red headed stepchild. Because its the only way they are going to get the gear with PvP stats that are overwhelmingly better than those found on PvE gear.

I'm going to look up those 2.4 items, thanks Simon. That sounds like a GOOD THING.

[Dren]

Yeah, world PvP in WoW is definately an afterthought.  They haven't supported it very well at all.  I agree, when done right it is very fun.

It sounds like Blizzard understands world PvP is hurting.  That vendor change is huge.

[SurfD]

Except that the vendor loot is, unless i miss my guess, going to be useless on the grand scale of things.

Superior quality pvp loot = BLUE loot.  Ie, crappy blue PvP gear like the stuff at Haala that is pretty much USELESS since you can now get a full set of season 1 from regular old Battleground PvP.

[Chenghiz]

They're moving the blue PVP stuff that's bought for honor now onto rep vendors, as season 4 arena gear hits and season 2 arena gear goes to honor vendors. I assume they will continue moving each rank of gear down as arena seasons continue to start. It's not amazing but I think it's a logical step that is pretty nice.

[Dren]

They're moving the blue PVP stuff that's bought for honor now onto rep vendors, as season 4 arena gear hits and season 2 arena gear goes to honor vendors. I assume they will continue moving each rank of gear down as arena seasons continue to start. It's not amazing but I think it's a logical step that is pretty nice.

Agreed.  Plus, do people with Season 3 gear really do a lot of the world PvP objectives?  I would think not.

It seems like Blizzard put the World PvP objectives in as a precursor to full on PvP in BG's and Arenas.  Yes, you'll get some fully decked out people ruining other people's fun, but it can't be the majority, right?  Right?

[Simond]

They put in world PvP because a tiny minority of people keep banging on about how awesome world pvp was, back in previous_mmog.

[Righ]

So you're saying that its only there to satisfy idiots who don't understand the real thing. I see. 

[Nebu]

They put in world PvP because a tiny minority of people keep banging on about how awesome world pvp was, back in previous_mmog.

PEOPLE THAT DON'T LIKE WHAT I LIKE ARE WRONG! 

[Ratman_tf]

Hum hum. I made up my PvP alt (level 34 working on 39) because getting into PvP with my 63 main (all greens with a few outland blues) was just fucking frustrating.

After twinking out my alt, it's much better. I don't feel like I'm losing because some other dude gotz shinier boots than me. Cause my boots are damn shiny now.

I'm hoping to take this character all the way up to 70 to PvP with, and avoid all that ganked in greens bullshit, since I'm collecting the blue PvP rewards on my way up...

[Signe]

They put in world PvP because a tiny minority of people keep banging on about how awesome world pvp was, back in previous_mmog.

PEOPLE THAT DON'T LIKE WHAT I LIKE ARE WRONG! 

/SIGNED

[dusematic]

I appreciate the whole "I want understanding of game mechanics and strategy to prevail," but that ultimately leads to a TBS game, and I think WoW is a fair compromise.

[WindupAtheist]

So it'll be...

Season 1 = rep vendors
Season 2 = honor vendors
Season 3+ = arena only

?

[Arrrgh]

So it'll be...

Season 1 = rep vendors
Season 2 = honor vendors
Season 3+ = arena only

?

That will happen in season 4.

What the patch is doing is....imho....letting people just pay gold for the blue L70 PVP gear. I doubt anyone buys the stuff with honor points anymore since it makes far more sense to just save up your honor points and buy season 1 gear instead.

If you're a fresh 70 with no resilience the blues aren't bad.

[Zetor]

I appreciate the whole "I want understanding of game mechanics and strategy to prevail," but that ultimately leads to a TBS game, and I think WoW is a fair compromise.

And I still don't think WOW's pvp is anything special, it's just glorified rock-paper scissors even if you ignore the 'gear' argument [which is still valid -- access to BT gear is huge, and some classes use pve gear in arenas] and focus on arenas, which are supposed to be the "high point" of the entire system.

I just got on a brand new 5v5 today on my warlock [original main, I hardly ever touched it in a year, have like 120 resilience] and we proceeded to win most of the games [peaking at 1820 rating; none of us has amazing gear, nothing beyond kara and s1/s2 stuff, we beat plenty of teams with s3 weapons though] with me mostly pressing the same 5 buttons in the same sequence every single game, same with my teammates.

Yeah, I know that 4-dps makeups aren't really skill intensive, but that's exactly my point -- you have cookie cutters that do the same exact thing every game (with mild deviations depending on the enemies we're facing) and win or lose depending on random factors. In our case, if we got a blackout proc on the enemy's warrior at the start or a lucky lightning overload proc from our shaman, we'd just blow him up before their healers could say "pain suppression", and that was that. Sometimes I, the low-resilience 9k hp warlock'd (wisely) get focus fired and die without being able to do anything if their warrior got multiple mace stuns on me and their dispeller got past our paladin's 20% dispel resistance talent on blessing of protection. Not much 'skill' involved there, eh?

WOW's design is fine for pve, but not for pvp. A game with good pvp shouldn't involve a x% chance of someone instantly dying or living due to a random number generator, or a matchup that one side has almost zero chance of winning. "Hard counters" are not just 1v1 btw (those are the most obvious, warrior vs rogue, warlock vs everything :p, frostmage vs warrior, etc), but also 2v2 (shadowpriest+warlock vs warrior+healer, rogue+healer vs shadowpriest+warlock...), 3v3 (3dps team vs 2-healer team vs drain team) and 5v5 (2345 vs 4dps vs drain).

I'm not an expert at Guild Wars pvp, but it looks a lot deeper and strategic than WOW, to me.


-- Z.

[dusematic]

Fair enough, but it's a bit harder than all of that.  I play shadowpriest/rogue 2v2 and our team hovers around 1750-1800.  Yet, I see a few shadowpriest/rogue teams above 2200.  What are they doing differently than us?  We're just not as good as them.  I understand what you're saying, you bring forth valid criticisms.  But I definitely feel as if there is skill involved in what I'm doing when I PvP. 

[Fordel]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/ has most of the changes rounded up so far.


I am going to grab off spec PvP blues if they are cheap, just so I can have matching suits. 

[Paelos]

Still no reports on the badge gear though.