Leveling is good now.

[Tarami]

It's not about being cosmically fair, it's about being fun and others having fun at your expense. A duel of the type Nebu is mentioning is to 90% (by class/gear/talents) determined already before it starts in WoW. As such you can be sure to always win and never take a risk. It's like starting a game of Quake with the rocket launcher.

It's just a simple question of sportsmanship and that is something that will never, ever work on the Internet unless you got set rules to constrain unsportsmanlike behaviour.

Levels and loot are equivalent.  Both are obtainable by time investment and both improve the power level of your character.  The only distinction between the two is cosmetic.

They are not. Levels are finite. With gear, sky is the limit. They would be equivalent if they added another five levels every content patch, but they don't.

[Jayce]

Can you name another PvP MMORPG where loot and level has a lesser effect than in WoW?

Planetside is the "canonical" example of this.  It's not all that persistent is the downside.  However I have often thought that they could increase the persistence without touching anything combat-related.

[Valmorian]

They are not. Levels are finite. With gear, sky is the limit. They would be equivalent if they added another five levels every content patch, but they don't.

Gear is as finite as levels are.  Yes, you are right in that the only difference is how often each is added into the game.  However, that's a fairly meaningless distinction since all it means is that you need to devote time to getting gear more often than you need to devote time to getting levels, and the PvP reward items are by all accounts sufficient to compete in PvP.  

Edit:
And I agree that many PvP matches start with the victor already known.  I just don't think that WoW is unique or even notably guilty in this regard.  DAOC is often heralded as a superior PvP alternative, but I can remember the exact same issues there.

[Valmorian]

Planetside is the "canonical" example of this.  It's not all that persistent is the downside.  However I have often thought that they could increase the persistence without touching anything combat-related.

Yep.  The only way Planetside has managed to dodge that trap is by removing it and placing diversity in the role of power differential. 

However, isn't Planetside PvP only?  There's no improving your character doing quests, if I'm not mistaken..

[Jayce]

However, isn't Planetside PvP only?  There's no improving your character doing quests, if I'm not mistaken..

The quest mechanic isn't there (as far as I know, been a long time) but you can improve your character.  As you gain "ranks" or levels, you can do more stuff at the same time.  You start off as a grunt, but then later you can be a grunt or drive tanks, then later you can be a grunt, drive tanks, and drive an ATV.  Later, you can gain leadership levels, where you can see more of the battlefield and communicate more widely.

That allows there to be advancement without really growing in power.  I don't think it would fit the WoW diku model very well, but I'm just answering your request to provide an example of an MMOG that doesn't have the power differential problem.

[Valmorian]

That allows there to be advancement without really growing in power.  I don't think it would fit the WoW diku model very well, but I'm just answering your request to provide an example of an MMOG that doesn't have the power differential problem.

Yeah, although I already pointed out that you can solve all these problems by entirely removing the systems that make these MMO's compelling PvE experiences.  That's what Planetside does, as far as I can tell.

[WindupAtheist]

That wasn't MY experience with UO, where every character I made was dead meat without a significant amount of time spent macroing and acquiring gear.

Your HP was equal to your strength, and anyone could max out their strength in a couple weeks of playing.  Or fifteen minutes if they knew the see-saw trick.  And everyone ran around in non-magical crafted gear 99% of the time.  The magic items that were  around weren't even THAT powerful.

The power curve was incredibly shallow in old UO compared to any diku, much less WoW, and to try and argue otherwise just makes you a motherfucking obvious liar.

[Dren]

While UO did have a fairly shallow curve, it took macro'ing to get to a competent level fast.  The standard, play the game "right" method, took a very very long time.  I should know.  I did it the "right" way and didn't get my magery to 100 until they actually increased the caps. (I think it was 3-4 years?)

Yes, your attributes (str, int, dex) all got capped quickly, but those things didn't make you a killer/survivor at all.  A miner with 100 HPs would last exactly 1.2 seconds against a fully decked miner-pk.  Attributes in early UO didn't make your character, they were just icing on the cake.

Yes, the weapons and armor back in the day were all crafted GM and easily obtained.  However, it was a full looting system.  Meaning, when you died, you ressed with absolutely nothing in your pack.  NOTHING.  You had to go to your bank or home to get re-equipped with every single death.  Ok, you got lucky once in awhile and the killer/s didn't have time to loot your body.  That was very very rare.  Hell even the NPC Mobs in PvE in that game looted your body!  "DAMN!  I had a bag of 80 of each reagents and it is GONE!"

A mage without reagents wasn't a mage.  A warrior without armor or weapon wasn't a warrior.  Upon resurrection in old school UO, you were dead meat.  It had the ultimate in rez camping and truly coined the phrase.

In these newer games, your equipment is your character.  It is just another extension of who you are because they can never be lost.  You are just as dangerous going into death as you are coming back from it.  We can rail against item-centric systems, but, in my opinion, if there is no body looting or degradation of items, items are just another metric of advancement much like skill or levels.  You can bury advancement of your character in any of those three places, but it really all ends up the same.

There will always be the haves and the have-nots regardless of how you design your system in a game with persistence.  If you want a game that doesn't, there are FPS games as mentioned.

[Nebu]

1) Gear plays a larger role in pvp outcome in WoW than any other MMO I've ever played.  Since the classic servers have arrived, I could go into RvR with crafted gear and 1 or 2 drops on about any class in DAoC and be comeptitive (not to mention I could do the above in less than 24h played).  Did I always win, no.  I could compete.  Being two-shot by someone of my level ENTIRELY due to their gear/class/spec seems like a pvp design flaw.  Especially in a game with so few classes to choose from. 

2) Too many classes with stun.  Stun does not belong in a PvP game PERIOD.  Why?  Do you enjoy being pounded on while unable to act?  I hated this about DAoC, I hate it here.  I'd expect Blizzard to learn from the past.

3) Levels and numbers define PvP in MMO's.  I have no real issue with that.  What I do have issue with is the fact that Blizzard HAD NO FORETHOUGHT in allowing level 70 characters to roam PvP servers ganking any gray they see without mercy nor hesitation.  There are MANY mechanisms that they could have used to discourage this practice yet they did nothing. 

4) The game suffers from an overabundance of CC and too few ways to remove it.  DAoC compensated for this with cure mez, cure nearsight, etc. as well as shorter purge timers.  WoW needs to give players a larger variety of means to break CC.  Also, see the whole stun thing. 

Z also brought up many other pvp flaws which I think fill the gaps that I have missed. 

[Arrrgh]

3... I've never understood why people people on PvP servers complain about getting ganked by higher levels. If that sort of thing bothers you then why play on one?

[Nebu]

3... I've never understood why people people on PvP servers complain about getting ganked by higher levels. If that sort of thing bothers you then why play on one?

This doesn't really require an answer, does it?  I think you're smart enough to figure it out.

[Valmorian]

The power curve was incredibly shallow in old UO compared to any diku, much less WoW, and to try and argue otherwise just makes you a motherfucking obvious liar.

I can only speak from my experience, oh.. and "Corp Por! Corp Por!".  So if you didn't have the right KIND of character, you were dead meat as well.  Same cookie cutter complaint there as well. 

Was the power curve different?  Probably, though it certainly didn't seem to make much difference to the characters I played, who were killed seconds into any PvP battle regardless of how much strength or what training I did.  Why?  Because I didn't get the "RIGHT" build.  So.. same as it ever was.

[dusematic]

The real question is: Why is Righ being such a fucking asshole in this thread?  Rage on bro, rage on.

[Righ]

Pardon? What's your problem douchematic?

[Valmorian]

The real question is: Why is Righ being such a fucking asshole in this thread?  Rage on bro, rage on.

Righ called me out (and rightly so) for assuming that nebu was complaining about being ganked by a group, when in actuality it was implied by someone else.

[Nebu]

I hope that I cleared up my opinions a bit.  I'm partly to blame as well. 

[Selby]

I must apologize here, because I confused Nebu and Selby's post.  Yes, Nebu was only talking about the ability to group, so please ignore the other comments which SHOULD have been directed to Selby and not Nebu.

You think I was honestly complaining about 6 people being able to kill 1 and that being unfair?  Hardly.  I was merely pointing out the way PvP works.  You either are higher level than those you attack or you have greater numbers than those you attack.  For those of us who have a class that can't compete in PvP, we just get to lay down and die and roll with it.  Hell, if getting ganked made me so angry I wouldn't have made it almost to 60 on a PvP server. 

[dusematic]

Every class can compete in PvP, with the right spec and gear.  Although, as was pointed out above (Val? Can't remember) there are a lot of hard counters, such as warrior vs. rogue.

[Jayce]

I don't know about that.  I have been killed by every class, with ease, on all my characters.  Some of them were geared.

My suckiness proves that WoW PvP isn't all gear!

[dusematic]

lol

[Chimpy]

My god I forgot how grindy Nagrand is.

And it reminds me why I never could level alts.

But at least it is good XP, and since I know where all the quest mobs are now, I can do laps around the zone just killing foozles for quests and handing in when I get to that point of said lap.

Shaman is halfway through 67 and I still haven't finished the second tier of Nesingwary hell, so I should be easily into 68 before heading to BEM, and my goal of total lvl 70 fast flying mount domination of SMV/Netherstorm quests will be fulfilled.

[Zetor]

Every class can compete in PvP, with the right spec and gear.  Although, as was pointed out above (Val? Can't remember) there are a lot of hard counters, such as warrior vs. rogue.

Of course, except that there are classes where every spec is good in all sorts of pvp (warlock, rogue), there are classes where pve specs are disadvantaged in some aspects ie. arena, but you can still pwn people (fire mage, BM hunter, enh shaman, feral druid, fury warrior) and there are classes where you're completely boned if you spec for pve (prot warrior, pve holy priest, prot paladin -- duels against melee classes outside IF/org don't count, sorry :p). That's not good design. In general, some classes are very good for ganking / not getting ganked while leveling (rogues, warlocks, hunters, druids, spriests), others get victimized (pallies of all specs, warriors, enh shaman [from range], anything that's a healer...), some are inbetween. And that's without even touching racials (wotf, warstomp, escape artist, arcane torrent, stoneform are the 'turn a loss into a win' ones in roughly this order)

There shouldn't be "a right spec" for half of the classes while some others can choose whatever they want and pwn. Stuff like MS should be baseline, priest trees should be holydps/shadowdps/healing with baseline pain suppression, not "pvp tree lol"/shadowdps/healing, etc. (everyone getting iceblock is a step in the right direction, but obviously frost mages are still going to be dominant)

Classes aren't equally gear-dependent either. Warriors obviously need lots of gear (epics+) to be competitive, while shadowpriests and frostmages can be effective in greens. Of course everyone needs resil in arena, but I'm talking about general pvp here. Also, getting the gear is an unnecessary grind (getting ~200k honor points on alliance side for a full s1 set + accessories? ow.). I don't think anyone is calling for all the participants to be tricked out in full s3 the moment they hit 70, but what'd be so wrong about giving people the option to play in full s1 / BG gear in battlegrounds and arenas if they want to [they could use superior pieces of gear in any of the slots at their discretion]?

Anyway, WOW is a PVE game. PVP was added as a diversion / afterthought, and it shows.

(I also like how you completely ignored my post on the previous page about the flaws of WOW's "perfect" pvp system, especially arenas which are supposed to be the pinnacle of WOW pvp.  )



-- Z.

[Simond]

1) Gear plays a larger role in pvp outcome in WoW than any other MMO I've ever played.  Since the classic servers have arrived, I could go into RvR with crafted gear and 1 or 2 drops on about any class in DAoC and be comeptitive (not to mention I could do the above in less than 24h played). 

Yeah, and WoW has ten million subscribers, mainly due to the strength of their PvE game, whereas DAoC couldn't even do better than Verant-era EQ and is now rapidly closing on Vanguard-level subs. Do you think the two are connected, perhaps?

2) Too many classes with stun.  Stun does not belong in a PvP game PERIOD.  Why?  Do you enjoy being pounded on while unable to act?  I hated this about DAoC, I hate it here.  I'd expect Blizzard to learn from the past.

There is a grand total of one class - the rogue - that has the combination of stuns & DPS that can stunlock someone down to death, and that class has virtually no ranged attack ability and otherwise poor CC (ranged snare that needs thrown weapon (i.e. can miss) and a combo point, longest duration stun cannot be used in combat, etc). All it takes is for an opponent to resist one stun (or trinket out, or whatever), and the rogue loses the fight either through the opponent escaping, or even via the rogue getting killed.

Comparing that to Stungard is hyperbole...at best.

3) Levels and numbers define PvP in MMO's.  I have no real issue with that.  What I do have issue with is the fact that Blizzard HAD NO FORETHOUGHT in allowing level 70 characters to roam PvP servers ganking any gray they see without mercy nor hesitation.  There are MANY mechanisms that they could have used to discourage this practice yet they did nothing. 

Please list some of these mechanisms that don't have worse drawbacks than making the gankee have a ten second corpse run.

4) The game suffers from an overabundance of CC and too few ways to remove it.  DAoC compensated for this with cure mez, cure nearsight, etc. as well as shorter purge timers.  WoW needs to give players a larger variety of means to break CC.  Also, see the whole stun thing. 

Earlier on you were complaining about getting two-shot, and now you want to remove CC. Anyone else see the logical disconnect here?

[Dren]

1) Gear plays a larger role in pvp outcome in WoW than any other MMO I've ever played.  Since the classic servers have arrived, I could go into RvR with crafted gear and 1 or 2 drops on about any class in DAoC and be comeptitive (not to mention I could do the above in less than 24h played).  Did I always win, no.  I could compete.  Being two-shot by someone of my level ENTIRELY due to their gear/class/spec seems like a pvp design flaw.  Especially in a game with so few classes to choose from. 

My belief is that Blizzard took the approach of placing advancement into the items, not the characters.  That way, they can control balance and advancement without affecting the core systems wrapped up in class development.  I tend to like that system better due to the flexibility.  A player can choose to just get to level 70 and do crafting, dailies, material collection/selling, etc. and never step foot into an instance.  Or they can choose to drive towards having the best equipment they can get.  Or they can choose to be somewhere in between. 

Then, once the next expansion comes out and raises the cap to 80, everyone has a new goal to reach and mess around with.  The ultra casual players can continue to casually climb that lvl ladder.  The ultra hardcore can look forward to bigger and better items to be lvl 80+++. 

While it has a lot of downfalls, for a game that is appealing to the masses, it seems to work.

2) Too many classes with stun.  Stun does not belong in a PvP game PERIOD.  Why?  Do you enjoy being pounded on while unable to act?  I hated this about DAoC, I hate it here.  I'd expect Blizzard to learn from the past.

Completely completely agree!  I've written my own complaints on this.  I do believe they should limit this a ton more than it is today.  I don't mind having some stuns in the game but they should be:

1. short (3 seconds or less)
2. long cooldown (30 seconds or more)
3. unable to be done in long strings (a character can't be stunned for 10 second after being stunned.)

3) Levels and numbers define PvP in MMO's.  I have no real issue with that.  What I do have issue with is the fact that Blizzard HAD NO FORETHOUGHT in allowing level 70 characters to roam PvP servers ganking any gray they see without mercy nor hesitation.  There are MANY mechanisms that they could have used to discourage this practice yet they did nothing. 

No comment.  I do not play PvP servers for this very reason.  I like to choose when I PvP.  Persistent PvP is exciting and thrilling, but I got enough of that in UO and SB.  I love PvP, but not 24/7.

4) The game suffers from an overabundance of CC and too few ways to remove it.  DAoC compensated for this with cure mez, cure nearsight, etc. as well as shorter purge timers.  WoW needs to give players a larger variety of means to break CC.  Also, see the whole stun thing. 

Agreed.  See also my comments on item 2.

[Righ]

Do you think the two are connected, perhaps?

No, I don't. Explain to me why you think that having a greater disparity between geared and ungeared people in PvP is the primary reason for WoW's sales, because that's what you just implied. Honestly, that was just a grotesque fanboy answer worthy of the official forums.

Don't like something about WoW? Well fuck you, it sells more than any other MMORPG, so you must be wrong. 

[Nebu]

Apparently Simond thinks that WoW pvp is perfect.  He has a right to his opinion, but I'd hope he could at least be a little bit more objective in his analysis.  Simply telling someone they are wrong in a rude and mocking way does little to make his point convincingly.  I also mentioned nothing of "stungard".  Think about the mechanics in DAoC.  Stungard ceased to exist about 4-5 years ago. 

The key point you're missing Simond is that most PvP enthusiasts believe that PvP should be skill driven rather than gear driven.  I don't really care how many people have WoW subscriptions.  I still believe that the fun in PvP comes from beating a competitor with skill rather than because I have better gear.  The opportunities for skill to be the determining factor are quite limited to cases where the gear difference is small.  I'd say that this only happens among the game's elite players in very restricted conditions (arenas).  I'd like the opportunity for skill to matter over a wider array of conditions.  Perhaps you can convince me of why my beliefs are wrong with something other than "WoW has 10 millions subscribers"?

Second, stun has no place in PvP.  Druids, rogues, warriors, and paladins have stun.  Many of which can get me to near half health BEFORE I'M ABLE TO DO ANYTHING.  I'm glad that you enjoy this.  I don't.  All cc needs to break on damage in a PvP world. 

I'd further comment on how stealth is poorly implemented in every pvp game and really should have no use beyond reconaissance, but that may be too much to bring up in one post.  Initiative is one of the most difficult things to balance in a game.  Stealth grants initiative.

[Valmorian]

I was merely pointing out the way PvP works.  You either are higher level than those you attack or you have greater numbers than those you attack. 

Well, that's kinda the way the universe works with regard to competition.  If you have superior numbers and/or superior equipment, you tend to win most of the time.  That is, if you consider winning "killing the opponent".

[Nebu]

Well, that's kinda the way the universe works with regard to competition.  If you have superior numbers and/or superior equipment, you tend to win most of the time.  That is, if you consider winning "killing the opponent".

I thought the point of gaming was to escape the confines of reality as a distraction?  Especially in a world of orcs, elves, and magic. 

When you beat an opponent, would you rather know that it was because you had superior gear or superior skill?  It takes almost no skill to acquire gear, so I personally tend toward the latter.  Of course, it seems obvious that my opinion is quite different from the norm here.

[Valmorian]

I thought the point of gaming was to escape the confines of reality as a distraction?  Especially in a world of orcs, elves, and magic. 

You can't escape the realities of math, my friend.  If you have a power differential, the one with the higher power is more likely to win.  That power differential can come from either superior numbers, superior equipment, or superior tactics.  But there is no tactician in the world that wouldn't take superior numbers/equipment if given the chance.

When you beat an opponent, would you rather know that it was because you had superior gear or superior skill?  It takes almost no skill to acquire gear, so I personally tend toward the latter.  Of course, it seems obvious that my opinion is quite different from the norm here.

No, I agree that it is more satisfying to compete on an even playing field.  I just think that such a thing is not ever going to happen in a game with persistent attributes that improve your avatar. 

The only way to get away from the cold, hard realities about math and the world is to change the world in such a way that it often breaks suspension of disbelief.  These games already do that to some degree (20+ hits with a sword to disable someone?) but at some level, you have to make a brief nod towards realism. 

[Dren]

There are 3 main ways of providing advancement in PvP that are being used or have been used in the past for MMOs.

1.  WoW style:  Reward PvP activity with items.  Said items improve ability to PvP.  More and better PvP advances you up in your effectiveness in PvP all through items.  There is some ranking involved in the Arenas, but it is still really tied right back to your equipment too.  Better equipment typically means you better be getting better personal scores too. (or you suck.)

2.  Ladders:  The players are left to their own devices to get the advantages they need to succeed.  Those aren't provided by the PvP system itself.  The PvP system only records your progress and success and displays it for bragging rights.

3.  Fluff:  Success in PvP  is rewarded with items, status, etc. unrelated to the ability to PvP better.  These are typically just for bragging rights and could be combined with a ladder system.

What history has told us is that players, in general, approve of style number 1. the most.  It wraps up several things that appeal to the masses into one system:

- Lewt whoriness.  It's all about the shiny.
- Status.  By default the lewtz gives you immediate and recognizable status.
- Fluff. Some items are fluff like the tabards or flying mounts.  
- Casual appeal.  Anyone can go in and dabble with BG's or even Arenas and get some points to build up.  If they dabble long enough they get some shinies.  Hell, I've been doing this and have improved my gear significantly with a few weeks "dabbling" in the BGs.

I understand the whole appeal and desire for REAL PvP.  The type with challenge and based on the ability to twitch response the right buttons at the right times.  Everyone would be at the same level for an even playing ground, etc.

However, that doesn't have mass appeal so a compromise has to be reached to be successful.  In my opinion, WoW has done "ok" at this.  There are a ton of improvements that need to be made and they seem to be slowly doing that.  Are the changes fast enough for my liking?  Nope.  Will I continue to play?  Yep.

[Nebu]

I understand the whole appeal and desire for REAL PvP.  The type with challenge and based on the ability to twitch response the right buttons at the right times.  Everyone would be at the same level for an even playing ground, etc.

However, that doesn't have mass appeal so a compromise has to be reached to be successful.  In my opinion, WoW has done "ok" at this.  There are a ton of improvements that need to be made and they seem to be slowly doing that.  Are the changes fast enough for my liking?  Nope.  Will I continue to play?  Yep.

Thank you.  I think this is the most rational and objective statement I've found on the matter. 

Val: It's easy to make the effects of gear and time shallower from a math sense (log scales vs linear scales for example).  I appreciate what you're trying to say, but also think that you're thinking inside the standard MMO box, if you will.  I believe that it's possible to have fun and rewarding pvp with progression.  Offering gear and skills that offer variety rather than power is an alternative few have attempted.  Someone with green gear should have a chance against someone with top tier gear.  Granted this chance would be significantly less than a 50:50 chance, but they should always be able to compete.  My approach would be that a skilled player should be able to make up a significant portion of the gear gap through gameplay.  Currently, this is difficulty/impossible to achieve due to the huge discrepancy in gear quality. 

The truth is that the standard MMO player prefers to embrace the time = power paradigm because it gives everyone to potential to be powerful given enough of a time investment.  Making skill the default results in a small percentage of players being the most competitive regardless of time. 

[Righ]

The truth is that the standard MMO player prefers to embrace the time = power paradigm because it gives everyone to potential to be powerful given enough of a time investment.  Making skill the default results in a small percentage of players being the most competitive regardless of time. 

Hang on. I was going to agree with that until I thought about it. While its true that it theoretically gives everybody the potential with enough time invested, the reality is that only a tiny subset of players have enough time to hit the 'top tier' which results in the gross PvP disparity that we see. Those players with a lot of time could in most cases invest that time in studying the mechanics and developing their coordination such that they were more skilled in a game that rewarded skill. All you are doing then is punishing the already gifted.

The reason for wide discrepancies between gear and long time investments to obtain the next rung on the ladder comes down to one thing only - monthly subscriptions. Its not about providing a better play experience. Pellet please.

[MrHat]

Hang on. I was going to agree with that until I thought about it. While its true that it theoretically gives everybody the potential with enough time invested, the reality is that only a tiny subset of players have enough time to hit the 'top tier' which results in the gross PvP disparity that we see. Those players with a lot of time could in most cases invest that time in studying the mechanics and developing their coordination such that they were more skilled in a game that rewarded skill. All you are doing then is punishing the already gifted.

[Nebu]

Righ: I think I see what you mean and you're right to a point.  Having been an athlete at a very competitive level I can tell you that there becomes a point where your skill caps and all the time in the world won't help beyond that.  i.e. no matter how much I play FPS, I'll never be able to beat Schild and his roommates.  With the endless gear loop you can always increase gear with an associated time investment making the disparity between skill cap and gear cap recognizeable.  

Does that make sense?  

[Simond]

Do you think the two are connected, perhaps?

No, I don't. Explain to me why you think that having a greater disparity between geared and ungeared people in PvP is the primary reason for WoW's sales, because that's what you just implied. Honestly, that was just a grotesque fanboy answer worthy of the official forums.

Or, you know you could apply a modicum of thought. Try to follow along:
1) WoW has a lot of subscribers.
2) Therefore, a lot of people continue to enjoy the game style WoW provides which is, primarily, Achiever-orientated
3) DAoC is more Killer-orientated because, as you yourself said, it's trivial to get a set of gear to put you alongside the top tier of PVPers.
4) This means the Achievers are not as attracted to DAoC as they are to WoW.
5) Given the respective subs rates of WoW & DAoC, significantly more people in the "MMOG player dataset" are in the Achiever mold than the Killer mold (and even the Killers in WoW are probably going to be Killer-Achiever-something or Achiever-Killer-something).
6) Therefore discouraging the Achievers (by nerfing all gear to the same level) to attempt to balance WoW PvP fractionally better would be a Very Bad Thing.

Make sense now?

(skipping the gear stuff)

2) Too many classes with stun.  Stun does not belong in a PvP game PERIOD.  Why?  Do you enjoy being pounded on while unable to act?  I hated this about DAoC, I hate it here.  I'd expect Blizzard to learn from the past.

Completely completely agree!  I've written my own complaints on this.  I do believe they should limit this a ton more than it is today.  I don't mind having some stuns in the game but they should be:

1. short (3 seconds or less)
2. long cooldown (30 seconds or more)
3. unable to be done in long strings (a character can't be stunned for 10 second after being stunned.)

Best possible stunlock chain for rogues:
Cheap shot (2 seconds, from stealth only, add two combo points)
Probably Sinister strike while stunned for damage + combo point.
Cheap shot is wearing off now, so Kidney Shot for three seconds and try to get another SS or two in and maybe follow up with another KS.

That's 5 seconds of guarenteed stun (from stealth only), and maybe another second after that. Past that, you're relying on long cooldown abilities (vanish->cheap shot), adrenaline rush, thistle tea, mace spec procs (if a combat maces rogue), gouging (where gouge is a fragile stun and has a ten second cooldown), blind (likewise fragile & long cooldown) engineered bombs/grenades, or what have you. To be honest, if you're getting killed by chain-stunning solo rogues they'll probably be able to kill you through pure DPS anyway.

And that's the class with the best stuns.

4) The game suffers from an overabundance of CC and too few ways to remove it.  DAoC compensated for this with cure mez, cure nearsight, etc. as well as shorter purge timers.  WoW needs to give players a larger variety of means to break CC.  Also, see the whole stun thing.  

Agreed.  See also my comments on item 2.

No CC = either warriors (lots of hp, lots of melee damage) or hunters (instant cast ranged damage) can kill other classes on a whim, while everyone else is fodder. That's not exactly something anyone sane should be wishing for.