Leveling is good now.

[Nebu]

I really hated Bladesedge the two times I did it as an alliance.  Is it really that much better as Hoarde?

[Righ]

I think there is only two tiers of mobs before the bosses. The third tier of mobs aren't in that quest line, though you do have to get a drop each from the birds & clefthooves on the Auchindoun quest line.

[Ironwood]

Unless you're a hunter who also skins, those quests of Annihilation blow chunks.

Horde has a lot of stuff in Bladesedge.  Can't comment if it's 'better' than alliance...

[Nebu]

I do skin which has made the kill 30 somewhat bearable.  I'll head over to Bladesedge when I get tired of the animal/elemental grind in Nagrand.  For some reason, I always preferred the layout of Nagrand better.  I think that's what helps me cope with the grindy nature of the quest loops better.

[Righ]

The Mag'har, Murkblood and Altruis quests are fun though (apart from the miserable 'kill 40 ogres' one) particularly because of the lore involved. And doing them all does open up the awesome Thrall line. Blade's Edge has some decent quests, but also some very annoying ones. It also has more early 'get a PUG son' cockblocks.

[Jayce]

I'm in love with Nagrand.  In my opinion the zone is the most beautiful in the game.  Kill 30 foozles does sort of suck though.  Hemet has picked up a grind complex in his old age.

So, due to some grinding and instances, I hit 70 with all of BEM, Netherstorm and SMV untouched.  I just did the Ogri'la unlock questline, and now all the ogres in the ravine are neutral to me! (Apparently, I'm the new king).  Does that mean that I can't do any of the quests that require me to kill ogres?

Incidentally, the Ogri'la and Skyguard quests are a hell of a lot of fun.  The bombing runs are actually sort of difficult, a new concept for WoW.  I almost feel safe going prot and just doing the bombing runs and nether ray wrangling for my dailies.

[Merusk]

So, due to some grinding and instances, I hit 70 with all of BEM, Netherstorm and SMV untouched.  I just did the Ogri'la unlock questline, and now all the ogres in the ravine are neutral to me! (Apparently, I'm the new king).  Does that mean that I can't do any of the quests that require me to kill ogres?

Nope, you can still kill them.  I've even heard some of them say something along the lines of "It honor to die at hand of king" when you kill them. 

It makes doing the Gruul's Lair/ Baron Sablemane quests MUCH easier if you can hold-off until after you've gotten the Ogri'la stuff done. Not having to worry about an elite add is 

[Nebu]

It makes doing the Gruul's Lair/ Baron Sablemane quests MUCH easier if you can hold-off until after you've gotten the Ogri'la stuff done. Not having to worry about an elite add is 

I swear that you guys are speaking a foreign language.  I'm going to do as much in terrokar and Nagrand as I can.  The netherworld was never a favorite of mine.

[Dren]

I'm in love with Nagrand.  In my opinion the zone is the most beautiful in the game.  Kill 30 foozles does sort of suck though.  Hemet has picked up a grind complex in his old age.

So, due to some grinding and instances, I hit 70 with all of BEM, Netherstorm and SMV untouched.  I just did the Ogri'la unlock questline, and now all the ogres in the ravine are neutral to me! (Apparently, I'm the new king).  Does that mean that I can't do any of the quests that require me to kill ogres?

Incidentally, the Ogri'la and Skyguard quests are a hell of a lot of fun.  The bombing runs are actually sort of difficult, a new concept for WoW.  I almost feel safe going prot and just doing the bombing runs and nether ray wrangling for my dailies.

I only do the bombing runs for my dailies.  It is fun, quick, and pays enough to keep up with any amount of other stuff I need.  Of course, having an elite flying mount make it oh so much easier.  I'm just starting the Netherwing quests and so far, they seem more like a grind than the others.  I lost interest several days ago and have not gone back there yet.

[SurfD]

netherwing is a bit grindy if you do those stupid Poison Peon quests, and they TERRIBLE Kill X Flayers / Ravagers quest in the mines (at friendly i believe).  Whoever decided that you should kill 15 flayers and 5 ravagers, yet put 200x more flayers then ravagers in the mines deserves to be shot.

However, The booterang is still the single most awesome daily i have yet done.

[Tale]

Once again: If you're raiding just for the lewtz, you're retarded.   

Which part of "there are different opinions on the merits of Blizzard doing this" failed to cover your different opinion? You just couldn't help yourself.

I played to equip my guild, so my guild can go further in the game, which is fun. Portraying that as selfishness is bizarre.

[Chimpy]

netherwing is a bit grindy if you do those stupid Poison Peon quests, and they TERRIBLE Kill X Flayers / Ravagers quest in the mines (at friendly i believe).  Whoever decided that you should kill 15 flayers and 5 ravagers, yet put 200x more flayers then ravagers in the mines deserves to be shot.

However, The booterang is still the single most awesome daily i have yet done.

seeing "Work is Da Poop!" on your screen right as you whallop a peon with the booterang still makes me chuckle.

and using this simple macro:

/tar Disobedient
/use Booterang

as you fly around rocks, you don't have to stop moving and it will whack people before you can see them on your screen.


The mine cart quest is 19g and you don't really have to kill anything which is good for non speed farming classes.

[Merusk]

Once again: If you're raiding just for the lewtz, you're retarded.   

Which part of "there are different opinions on the merits of Blizzard doing this" failed to cover your different opinion? You just couldn't help yourself.

I played to equip my guild, so my guild can go further in the game, which is fun. Portraying that as selfishness is bizarre.

Wasn't a shot at you, stop being so paranoid.  The folks complaining loudest about the soft reset are the ones who want to be uber 4-evr.  Does that fit you, because I sure didn't think it did.  Your position also seems to presume I don't raid, when I'm one of the few here besides yourself whose seen beyond Kara.    I do it for the encounters, not the lewtz. Thus, my above quote. 

and using this simple macro:

Shhh.  You'd be surprised how many folks haven't figured that out... I see them hovering over peons as I whizz by and I feel somewhat guilty, knowing they're trying to find their booterang/ target the peon.

[Chimpy]

and using this simple macro:

Shhh.  You'd be surprised how many folks haven't figured that out... I see them hovering over peons as I whizz by and I feel somewhat guilty, knowing they're trying to find their booterang/ target the peon.

No one here plays on my realm, so I am spreading the wealth as it does not impinge on my booterangin' :)

[dusematic]

Can I just say something?



WoW is pretty sweet.  I played when it first came out, quit for a super long time, and now I'm back.  All I do is Battlegrounds and Arenas.  If you like PvP and MMO's, I say it's the best game out there.  You can strictly PvP and get gear good enough to compete with anyone in the game (at PvP).  My 2v2 rating is getting pretty solid. 

[Nebu]

WoW is pretty sweet.  I played when it first came out, quit for a super long time, and now I'm back.  All I do is Battlegrounds and Arenas.  If you like PvP and MMO's, I say it's the best game out there.  You can strictly PvP and get gear good enough to compete with anyone in the game (at PvP).  My 2v2 rating is getting pretty solid. 

If you had said PvE, I'd agree.  The PvP game is pretty badly broken with regard to cc, class balance, etc.  It's tolerable, but there are better options.

[dusematic]

Like what? 

[Nebu]

Like what? 

For PvP I still believe that both Planetside and DAoC are better games.  PotBS may also be worth a shot.  Of course, that's my opinion.

[dusematic]

I think WoW has some pretty fucking deep PvP.  I'm pretty into it though, and you need to have really good PvP gear to compete.  My ratings aren't amazing, but they're respectable, above 1700.  I'm not sure why people don't think WoW PvP isn't good.  I have a feeling (I'm not specifically leveling this criticism at you) that a lot of people who say that are extremely casual who arena and BG in the finest of rgeens and just get tossed.  When your gear is that inferior, even if you're using the "right" strategy, it'll seem very, very wrong.  Although to be fair, I haven't played DAoC in awhile.  So maybe I'm missing out.  But I have a feeling, that at least for me, WoW is the sweet spot.

[Zetor]

My arena teams are also in the 1700-1800 range [3v3 as spriest-warlock-rshaman, not really cookiecutter either :P] and I personally enjoyed COV's pvp more than WOW.

Too many hard counters / cookie cutters / balance issues, gear IS a huge divide between "pwns and pwn-nots" (in case of SR gear, you need to be a BT raider or you're SOL, ditto with holy pallies), the arena system is currently broken in at least four different ways (win traders, SR, personal rating tankers, point sellers with full s3 gear in the 1600s). BGs and world pvp are broken in more than four ways (racials, unfair maps, gear matching STILL not working, WSGs that never end), etcetera.

WOW pvp was added as an afterthought and it shows. It's a fun diversion (especially BGs to let off some steam), but I have more fun PVEing with friends, honestly. (even though my full s2/s3 geared warrior can 2-shot most of the green-geared people in BGs... yeah, that's fun for them. I think.) World pvp? Sounds fun in theory, but it's always some asshat 70 NE / undead rogue (depending on faction) ganking in a lowbie city, then running away once a level 70 shows up. The actual 'world pvp objectives' are just used for their pve benefits, if that.


-- Z.

[Selby]

I'm not sure why people don't think WoW PvP isn't good.

Because we play on a PvP server where the only "strategy" is someone 10+ levels above you running by you and one-shotting you or multiple 70's escorting a high 60's character around deciding to blow you away and camp your corpse so their buddy can get all of his quests done in relative safety in the zone.  You can't fight back against that except to run away.

[Valmorian]

I'm not sure why people don't think WoW PvP isn't good.

Because we play on a PvP server where the only "strategy" is someone 10+ levels above you running by you and one-shotting you or multiple 70's escorting a high 60's character around deciding to blow you away and camp your corpse so their buddy can get all of his quests done in relative safety in the zone.  You can't fight back against that except to run away.

I play on a PvP server and the number of times that has happened to my character from 1-63 I can count on both hands.  On the other hand, there's been a TON of times I've had little skirmishes here and there with characters close to my level.

As for the 60+ game, if you're on a PvP server, just group up.. seriously, people who complain that a group of people on a PvP server killed them baffle me. 

[Nebu]

Too many hard counters / cookie cutters / balance issues, gear IS a huge divide between "pwns and pwn-nots" (in case of SR gear, you need to be a BT raider or you're SOL, ditto with holy pallies), the arena system is currently broken in at least four different ways (win traders, SR, personal rating tankers, point sellers with full s3 gear in the 1600s). BGs and world pvp are broken in more than four ways (racials, unfair maps, gear matching STILL not working, WSGs that never end), etcetera.

WOW pvp was added as an afterthought and it shows. It's a fun diversion (especially BGs to let off some steam), but I have more fun PVEing with friends, honestly. (even though my full s2/s3 geared warrior can 2-shot most of the green-geared people in BGs... yeah, that's fun for them. I think.) World pvp? Sounds fun in theory, but it's always some asshat 70 NE / undead rogue (depending on faction) ganking in a lowbie city, then running away once a level 70 shows up. The actual 'world pvp objectives' are just used for their pve benefits, if that.

I lack the experience that you have, but I can see all of these issues clearly after my 5+ years in a game built for PvP.  

QFT

[Nebu]

As for the 60+ game, if you're on a PvP server, just group up.. seriously, people who complain that a group of people on a PvP server killed them baffle me. 

Just group up?  You do realize that this isn't always possible for adults with busy lives and random play schedules, right?

I'm personally becoming less annoyed by the gankers and more annoyed by the mechanics that Z has posted above.  PvP in this game is all about what class you are and what gear you have.  The only time skill plays a role is when the first two are equal, which is almost never.   I do take some solace in the fact that I'm able to beat some people that should be destroying me, but those opportunities for 1v1 are rare rare rare.

[Valmorian]

Just group up?  You do realize that this isn't always possible for adults with busy lives and random play schedules, right?

You do realize that ANY system that allows world-based PvP is going to have a power differential between people who group and people who don't, right?  It's just MATH.  If you don't like the idea that you might need to group in order to quest in a PvP enabled area, then perhaps PvP just isn't for you? 

Complaining that 6 people can kill a single opponent in PvP is just bizarre.  Of COURSE they can.  It's like when people would complain about "zergs" in DAOC, as if military strategists don't consider overwhelming numbers to be a tactical ace in the hole in most situations.

What class you are matters because some classes are CLEARLY intended to be played in a group.  If you have a character that does limited DPS, has low survivability and heals others a lot, then perhaps soloing this character in a PvP environment would be unwise? 

What gear you have matters because any time you have a game element that improves your character, you're going to have disparity between the haves and have-nots.  What solution would you propose?  Either you're going to have everyone at an even power level from day 1 to the day they quit (which, while it may be refreshing in the short term, wouldn't please a lot of people) or you're going to have power level issues.



Let me ask you this, would you prefer if every item/spell/ability didn't affect the damage you did or took?   Because that's what it would take to eliminate the issues you are talking about.

[Nebu]

Val,

I wasn't commenting on anything but your solution.  So preach to another choir.

Were WoW to be more PvP focused, you'd see a shallower curve in terms of both power gains and ability to acquire gear.  You'd also see better assignment of things like stealth, cc, etc.  Some classes have an abundance of PvP goodies while some have almost none.  This isn't well thought out for a PvP environment. 

[Righ]

Let me ask you this, would you prefer if every item/spell/ability didn't affect the damage you did or took?   Because that's what it would take to eliminate the issues you are talking about.

Bunch of straw men in your post, but let me jump on this point, because its wrong and its important.

Items can add to a character's power and abilities without creating a situation where gear is grossly out of control such as in WoW. If 90% of your character's powers and attributes comes from design choices you make and 10% comes from equipment, you'll have a better balanced game than if 30% comes from your level, 10% comes from talents and the rest comes from equipment, which is more akin to the balance WoW has. You don't need to make every item or ability decorative, but reducing the gap between haves and have-nots will go a long way towards making for more competitive PvP.

MMORPGs always provide an uneven PvP game. However, the fact that WoW is one of the most extremely unbalanced loot-oriented MMORPGs makes its PvP similarly unbalanced.

[Valmorian]

Val,

I wasn't commenting on anything but your solution.  So preach to another choir.

Were WoW to be more PvP focused, you'd see a shallower curve in terms of both power gains and ability to acquire gear.  You'd also see better assignment of things like stealth, cc, etc.  Some classes have an abundance of PvP goodies while some have almost none.  This isn't well thought out for a PvP environment. 

I'm addressing the very complaints you are making.  This isn't preaching, it's a discussion.

While having a shallow power curve and ability to acquire gear might SOUND good, what you are asking is for people to spend more time for smaller incremental improvements to their character.  If the power differential between a starting character and a "fully developed" one is small enough, then you're going to frustrate a LOT of people.

Suppose the starting character's power is represented by 1.  An ending character can be 20, 5, or even 1.2, but if the power difference is as small as 1 to 1.2, then the entire span of the game from beginning to end is going to either be REALLY short (as in, the starting character can go ahead and fight stuff that would challenge the end player and quickly step up to 1.2 power himself) or you'll have to put artificial time limits on when a character can engage such opponents.  

As for grouping, it doesn't matter how weak or powerful you make each character, a group will ALWAYS have a stark power advantage over a solo player, so that doesn't solve the "I can't find a group" problem.  To solve that, you'd need to have some sort of hard coded system that not only prevented multiple characters from attaking a single player, but would also have to eliminate any effect they could grant to either player in any way.

[Righ]

Dude. Nebu said he couldn't always group up. He didn't add "so fix the PvP so that people can't gang up on me", so arguing against that imaginary position repeatedly is really fucking stupid.

[Valmorian]

Bunch of straw men in your post, but let me jump on this point, because its wrong and its important.

Please DO point out a straw man in my post, because every point I made was written to address the argument in question.  

Items can add to a character's power and abilities without creating a situation where gear is grossly out of control such as in WoW. If 90% of your character's powers and attributes comes from design choices you make and 10% comes from equipment, you'll have a better balanced game than if 30% comes from your level, 10% comes from talents and the rest comes from equipment, which is more akin to the balance WoW has. You don't need to make every item or ability decorative, but reducing the gap between haves and have-nots will go a long way towards making for more competitive PvP.

All this is saying is that if you make a game where power level doesn't increase with time (or increases so slowly as to be virtually unnoticeable) that the game will be more even with regards to PvP.  No kidding, I never claimed it wouldn't (speaking of straw men!).  

I am addressing the vast majority of games where you have persistent attributes (and gear counts as an attribute) that increases your character's power level and take time/effort to acquire.  If the game is long enough, and each one of those attributes increases the power level of your character, then you're going to have a disparity.  That you can eliminate all that is all fine and good, but then you eliminate a lot of what makes people play the game in the first place.

MMORPGs always provide an uneven PvP game. However, the fact that WoW is one of the most extremely unbalanced loot-oriented MMORPGs makes its PvP similarly unbalanced.

Can you name another PvP MMORPG where loot and level has a lesser effect than in WoW?

[WindupAtheist]

Man, I'm the resident carebear and even I didn't find my WoW PVP server too unbearable.  So you get ganked.  It's not like you lose anything.  Just roll with it, and get your shots in where you can.

EDIT:

Can you name another PvP MMORPG where loot and level has a lesser effect than in WoW?

Old-timey UO, the kind that annoyed me and earned the eternal lunatic love of some others around here.  Any remotely developed character had the same HP and armor as any other.

[Valmorian]

Dude. Nebu said he couldn't always group up. He didn't add "so fix the PvP so that people can't gang up on me", so arguing against that imaginary position repeatedly is really fucking stupid.

I said that's the only way you could make a game such that a soloer has a chance against a group of people in PvP.  I didn't say that he WANTED that, I said that's the only way he would ever GET that.  He can't group up, I understand that, but that's the breaks when it comes to a PvP environment, and complaing that a group of 70's kill you and camp your body so that their friend can level in peace IS suggesting that such a situation is somehow unfair.  It's not.  

[Valmorian]

EDIT:

Can you name another PvP MMORPG where loot and level has a lesser effect than in WoW?

Old-timey UO, the kind that annoyed me and earned the eternal lunatic love of some others around here.  Any remotely developed character had the same HP and armor as any other.

That wasn't MY experience with UO, where every character I made was dead meat without a significant amount of time spent macroing and acquiring gear.

[Righ]

Please DO point out a straw man in my post, because every point I made was written to address the argument in question. 

Complaining that 6 people can kill a single opponent in PvP is just bizarre.

Who did that?

What solution would you propose?

Who asked for a solution? Nebu simply said that it wasn't always practical to implement your kind advice to 'just group up'.

Can't be arsed to follow your SirBrucing, but as for an MMORPG where equipment has less of an effect - pick any one, because WoW is just about the pinnacle of loot-oriented disparity. Example: Lineage. Notice that I didn't mention levels, that's a twist of the argument of your own making.

[Valmorian]

Complaining that 6 people can kill a single opponent in PvP is just bizarre.

Who did that?

Numerous people on message boards.  Not him specifically, otherwise I would have said "You complaining that 6 people can kill a single opponeny in PvP".  It's a COMMON complaint in world PvP, just look at all the complaints about zergs in DAOC (they took up most of the message boards I frequented when I played it).

Who asked for a solution? Nebu simply said that it wasn't always practical to implement your kind advice to 'just group up'.

That's asking if he HAS a solution, not saying he DOES.  That's hardly a straw man when he was complaining about WoW's world PvP. 

Can't be arsed to follow your SirBrucing, but as for an MMORPG where equipment has less of an effect - pick any one, because WoW is just about the pinnacle of loot-oriented disparity. Example: Lineage. Notice that I didn't mention levels, that's a twist of the argument of your own making.

Levels and loot are equivalent.  Both are obtainable by time investment and both improve the power level of your character.  The only distinction between the two is cosmetic.

As for Sir Brucing (which is as stupid a complaint as I have EVER heard on this board) if you'd rather I simply make my points without referring to the original post for reference, so be it.  It just makes it more difficult to follow.


The sooner people learn to deal with the fact that any game with acquisition of power through time invested coupled with PvP will have the same power level disparity problems, the better.


EDIT:

I must apologize here, because I confused Nebu and Selby's post.  Yes, Nebu was only talking about the ability to group, so please ignore the other comments which SHOULD have been directed to Selby and not Nebu.