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Author Topic: Your role in the stagnant MMOG cycle...  (Read 28216 times)
Koyasha
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Reply #35 on: October 19, 2004, 10:47:27 AM

Quote from: Shannow
For EQ/DaoC etc its skill = 15%, stats/level = 85%...A noob who just ebayed a level 40 character can still gank a level 20 fairly easily.


First, the relation of skill to stats/level is wrong in my opinion, but it would be impossible to assign an objective definition to this.  It also depends on the class.  A Warrior in EQ may have that ratio, but a Bard, Necromancer, Druid, or even a Cleric requires more application of skill.  Making all classes equally interesting has great merits, and I would like that.

And second, you're using an incredibly excessive level spread.  Of course a level 40 can gank a 20 fairly easily.  That's a HUGE difference in levels in a game that only had 50, 60, 65, and now 70 levels.  20 levels is a difference of more than 1/4 the levels in the entire game!  And considering the characters are both below the original level cap, effectively the differences between them are designed to be well over 1/3 of the levels in the entire game.  On the other hand, a level 30 stands a chance against a level 35 if his skill and use of abilities is higher - and the classes they're playing are in his favor.  But if it's going to be an RPG, you have to accept that your character and the enemy's become more powerful, and that certain classes are weaker against others, and that you use tactics and strategy to make up for a difference in level, but given identical player skill and perfect decision making on both side, the one with the biggest stats will win.  But given that identical skill and perfect decision making never happens, as long as you're not trying to challenge something that's *too* far above you, you have a chance.

Or to quote Ilyich from the Improved Ilyich mod in Baldur's Gate 2..  "We are easily ten times as experienced as you are.  If it were not for our penchant for making suboptimal tactical choices, you would have no chance of defeating us."  But in an AD&D based game, one of the ones in which even one or two levels can make a huge difference in a fight, you can defeat enemies vastly higher than your character, simply because they are NPC's and make suboptimal tactical choices.  Against a halfway-intelligent PC group, you would truly have no chance.  It is the tactical choices that make the difference between victory and defeat.  The same applies to almost any MMOG combat I've ever participated in, with the possible exception of those that are over so fast that you do not have time to use tactics.  

This is why MMOG monsters don't work by the same stat system players do, and why a level 20 orc can slaughter a level 20 player without breaking a sweat in most games.  The game increases the NPC's sheer power, while keeping their level the same, to make up for the complete lack of intellgient strategy.

-Do you honestly think that we believe ourselves evil? My friend, we seek only good. It's just that our definitions don't quite match.-
Ailanreanter, Arcanaloth
WonderBrick
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Reply #36 on: October 19, 2004, 10:59:55 AM

Quote
I'm not sure why you think i "don't like" FPS type games.


I never said you "don't like" FPSs.  And I don't think I said anything that conveyed that.  I hope not.  But I did ask for the term "FPS" to be ignored for a moment, so I can get a better sense of the point you are making.

Also, early on, I tried to make it very clear that the current EQ/AO/SWG/RollPG game is here to stay.  I wanted to respect that, and see what brainstorming can be done to progress the player-skill aspects of the MMRolePG-genre forward, seperate from the existing successful approach.  I don't want to change the formula for success that certain games enjoy.  But in the journey to tell the developers what we want and don't want, there can often be some mixed signals they receive.  I don't want to turn baseball into Quake.  I am looking for a largely non-dice-roll form of interaction.

Quote
Similarly, if I try to change a roleplaying game so that there is no role, that its mainly based on player skill, that would be just as silly.


No, no, no!  I think this is where the misunderstanding is.  I am not wanting to join a game with 10 years of gameplaying experience to be Superman in the game.  I want to take on a role.   I want to play a thief, a barkeeper, a dungeon-exploring adventurer, a drunken fool, or a Shadowclan Orc.  I want to take on all the challenges that each entail, either self-imposed(back to PnP roots), or dictated by the game(beer fogs my vision and I need to fight my own jittery reflexes, I have a task before me but with limited tools, I am placed under a curse, I need to practice my archery skill with ingame physics, etc).  I want to take on roles, and all the strengths and weaknesses that the game places before me.  I want the game to present limitations through creative gameplay, and roleplayed challenges, not flat, arbitrary, limiting numbers.  Stop saying I don't want an RPG.

Roleplaying does not mean you need dice.  Roleplaying does not mean you have to let your character play itself.

The RTS analogy is a good one, if I understood the point you are making.  Yes, your units are fighting in an automated manner.  Yes, they would die without you guidance.  Yes, you still need some player(you) intervention to make it more then just hard numbers clashing against hard numbers.  But that intervention is about all the interaction there is.  And that is what I take issue with.  But I take issue with it after accepting that there is a market for the existing approaches.  And the whole "roleplaying" aspect of MMORPGs complicates the issue in a manner that RTS games do not need to take into account.

Quote
As far as current games require NO skill. I would reject that outright. Having experienced having to group with an ebay bought character, it was apparent within 5 seconds of a fight that the player had no skill. If the games didn't require skill, then this wouldn't have mattered, but it quickly because apparent that indeed skill was required, and we weren't about to risk ourselves because this skilless fool purchased his character.


I am not foolish enough to completely rule out skill in existing queued combat MMOGs, anymore then I would rule out skill in an RTS.  There is timing and management aspects that players learn and use.  But knowledge of the way the game wants you to interact with it plays a huge factor.  You are watching the game play itself far more then you would like to think.

"Please dont confuse roleplaying with rollplaying. Thanks."   -Shannow

"Just cuz most MMO use the leveling treadmill doesn't mean I have to lower my "fun standards" to the common acceptance. Simply put, I'm not gonna do that."  -I flyin high
Dark Vengeance
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Reply #37 on: October 19, 2004, 11:35:24 AM

I just wanted to mention that based on the "haves" the original poster was asking for stuff that was entirely found within the original release of UO. Alright, maybe UO with modifications to make combat more player-skill-based.

Just struck me as ironic that many of the things he wanted were in the first game of the modern MMOG genre....the one that started everyone bitching about MMOGs in the first place.

Bring the noise.
Cheers............
schild
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Reply #38 on: October 19, 2004, 11:36:21 AM

Someone should make Ultima Online: Source.
WonderBrick
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Reply #39 on: October 19, 2004, 12:06:01 PM

Well, UO was indeed my first MMOG.  No other MMORPG approach even remotely enticed me away.  The only thing that made my eye wander was the sheer amazement I had, that others wanted the approach that those other games offered.  I am now at the point(well for past two years), where UO has changed into something so different from the original product, it is UO that is driving me away, not another game luring me away.

Though it is to early to tell at this stage, Darkfall appears to capture every aspect of what I desire.  It is a nurtured and carefully evolved form of early UO.

"Please dont confuse roleplaying with rollplaying. Thanks."   -Shannow

"Just cuz most MMO use the leveling treadmill doesn't mean I have to lower my "fun standards" to the common acceptance. Simply put, I'm not gonna do that."  -I flyin high
rscott
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Reply #40 on: October 19, 2004, 05:19:51 PM

Wonderbrick,
It was actually a good question about ignoring the FPS abbreviation as I see how it could be confusing.  The first person view portion of it is indeed irrelvant to the issue.  I tend to use Quake as an example of an anti-roleplaying game, and the current crop of games as more pure roleplaying.

I see two schools of thought as to how to improve the current EQ-clone crop.  1) being the turn it into an arcade game where you play whack a mole with everyone else similar to the DAOC battlegrounds only with the character mattering less and less and player skill mattering more and more, and 2) de-emphasizing of combat so as to add emphasis to everything else, opening up the game play to other avenues.  I consider 1 an anti-rpg approach, which is not bad, but they should make the terms clear and and call it a mmog, or call it a massively multiplayer arcade game.  2) seems more rpg-ish, but very hard to pull off and might not be that marketable, even pnp games sometimes don't play much more then combat simulators (as someone else said).

...

IMO, roleplaying does indeed mean the character should  govern the chance of success more than the player.  (not sure if thats what you meant).  If the character matters less, then in a sense, EVERY game is a rpg and the term looses all meaning.  IMO, any time i've played a game no matter how many role playing elements it  has, inventory, skills, persistance, character appearance customization... it never really feels like a rpg until the character matters more than the player in governing chances of success.  Every other time, it feels like an arcade game, or fps or rts or whatever else heck the game is.

...

You understand my RTS analogy very well, i'm surprised.  The other thing i would add is the understanding that 'the game' of RTS does not reside in the individual fights, it occurs at a meta level above the fights.  The fights are the bricks of a building, each one not so important, but the resultant sum is  the thing of interest.  Similarly, 'the game' of RPGS should not reside in the individual fights.  But rather the sum of all the characters actions, both through mouth and muscle are where the game is.  So as one should not pay too much attention to the fight, its not really where the 'play' is.
WonderBrick
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Reply #41 on: October 19, 2004, 09:25:59 PM

Quote
IMO, roleplaying does indeed mean the character should govern the chance of success more than the player. (not sure if thats what you meant). If the character matters less, then in a sense, EVERY game is a rpg and the term looses all meaning. IMO, any time i've played a game no matter how many role playing elements it has, inventory, skills, persistance, character appearance customization... it never really feels like a rpg until the character matters more than the player in governing chances of success. Every other time, it feels like an arcade game, or fps or rts or whatever else heck the game is.


I do think that roleplay needs to have a character-driven approach to gameplay, but not with flat numbers alone.  It is hard to convey a non-numbers approach to anyone who is used to the hard numbers approach that most games offer.  But bear with me, as I try.

The first thing that jumps to mind is Shadowclan Orcs in UO.  They have a set of self-imposed rules that they live by:  no mounts, stay in character at all times including by speaking their own language, respect and obey the heirarchy, no powergaming, specific weapon and skill usage, etc.  This is just a real quick example of the enviroment that they live under, in classic UO.  Classic UO was very much a game that was not driven by hard numbers alone.  They have limitations that come in a more creative form, not flat numbers clashing against hard numbers with minor player intervention.

I hate using FPSs as an example, but incase you are not familiar with pre-AOS UO, maybe FPSs will still be able to get my point across.  Shadowclan is essentailly living in a FPS enviroment, where player skill plays more of a role then hard numbers.  Even in this enviroment, they have an immersive world that they live in.  They roleplay in this world, with plenty of player skill, and few hard numbers dictating the outcome.

I think a game could offer a large variety of race and role specific rules that help guide a player along a roleplaying experience, without forcing hard numbers.  Imo, the hard numbers approach can often force the roleplay out of a game.  Numbers can help assist roleplay, but hard numbers alone do not make roleplay.

Morrowind is another example, but perhaps to loose with it's player freedom implementation to prove my point.  Numbers play a role when casting spells, calculating damage and protection, but the actual projectile/spell aiming is still left in the hands of the player.  If you were to take Morrowind, and add a clearer variety of roles to live in, complete with role-assisted atmosphere, then I think you have something more along the lines of what I am aiming for.  

If a game could offer the players the tools to play different roles in the manner that Shadowclan impose upon themselves, then I think we are headed in the right direction.  The implementation of role-assisted atmosphere is so important to success or failure, especially in the MMORPG world.  Powergamers and balance issues make this implementation a nightmare.  You end up with games that, in order to solve the implementation issues, end up using only hard numbers to keep the non-RPers in check.

Earlier in the thread you said:
Quote
Nothing wrong with that, but just realize it might be easier to start with a Planetscape or WW2O game, and modify from there because those games in essence are closer to what you want than EQ/DAOC/COH.


I did not want to comment on, in fear of the point entirely being lost.  I do think you could take a persistant FPS, and add content and rulesets to reach the goal I am headed for.  But if you simply use the FPS model, without the appropriate roleplaying tools and guidance, then you fail and are left with only a shallow action game with RPG-ish trappings.  This is not what I am after.

And just to clarify the different approaches to RP that I think you and I have...
Quote
In a rpg, the role matters more than the player. That was one of its chief benefits, a defining characteristic.

Quote
When players make decisions because (its what Krom likes to do) instead of (its got the highest chance of success), then you know the player is roleplaying, and not rollplaying. The stats are there to provide a physics framework. They can do all the talking even when a player is very much roleplaying. Indeed a good roleplayer (say playing an ogre with int 3) will look at their stats and hold back on a good strategy because they know their character would never have come up with it. The stats matter, and the player is playing their role.


My approach to RP is that I want to play through the eyes of my character(and I don't literally mean first person point of view when I say this).  I don't want to play from a removed, RTS-like position, making poker-like-odds decisions based on what I think my character would do.  I want to live vicariously through my character, living within the imposed RP "rules", fully testing those boundries, while staying "in theme".  Whether I am playing the hero or the low level orc badguy, I want to play the best I possibly can, within those set limitations.  Certain situations require me to make decisions that I feel my character would make.  But make no mistake, if survival is at stake, that hero character, or low level orc, will be attempting to fight as hard as possible, within their limitations(though certain exceptions exist).  Numbers help with the limitations up to a point, and then the player plays with what he is dealt, with some imagination thrown in.  I am a fan of living though my character, instead of acting as a removed, guiding factor in his/her life.

"Please dont confuse roleplaying with rollplaying. Thanks."   -Shannow

"Just cuz most MMO use the leveling treadmill doesn't mean I have to lower my "fun standards" to the common acceptance. Simply put, I'm not gonna do that."  -I flyin high
WonderBrick
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Reply #42 on: October 20, 2004, 05:05:12 AM

On a seperate, but related note, does anyone know how combat is handled in the upcoming SWG expansion, Jump to Lightspeed?  I just watched a clip of it, and at first glance, it appears realtime combat(and they stated this also).  Could this be a good sign of MMOG devs experimenting with player skill?

"Please dont confuse roleplaying with rollplaying. Thanks."   -Shannow

"Just cuz most MMO use the leveling treadmill doesn't mean I have to lower my "fun standards" to the common acceptance. Simply put, I'm not gonna do that."  -I flyin high
Raguel
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Reply #43 on: October 20, 2004, 07:23:46 AM

To answer the title's question, my role in the stagnation of mmorpgs is to let it continue to stagnant. The reason why mmos are about loot and levels is that most players *want* them to be about loot and levels, so that's what they get. Companies are making a lot of money as games are now and they have zero incentive to change. IMO it's time to accept the limitations of the genre.
rscott
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Reply #44 on: October 21, 2004, 03:10:42 AM

I don't mean to imply that the only restrictions on play are numerical.  Just that the stats describe the character and to  ignore them is to ignore the character.  You ignore the character in your play and i'd be surprised if anyone calls that roleplaying.

Quote

I hate using FPSs as an  example, but incase you are not familiar with     pre-AOS  UO,  maybe   FPSs  will  still  be  able   to  get  my  point     across. Shadowclan  is essentailly living  in a FPS  enviroment, where     player skill  plays more  of a  role then hard  numbers. Even  in this     enviroment,  they have  an immersive  world that  they live  in.  They     roleplay  in this world,  with plenty  of player  skill, and  few hard  numbers dictating the outcome.


But i wouldn't call it roleplaying.  They are being themselves (for the most part) in this immersive world, and that isn't roleplaying.  Or maybe a 1 out of 10 rating on the rpg scale, as most any game can be called roleplaying to some extent.  In any event, its barely worth the title.

Quote

My  approach to  RP is  that I  want to  play through  the eyes  of my character(and I don't literally mean first person point of view when I say this).   I don't want to  play from a  removed, RTS-like position,


I can play a rts and picture myself living in the world commanding an army, maybe give myself an in game name and appearance.   Does that mean that the RTS is an rpg?  I wouldn't say so. I could even impose some restrictions on my speach and unit choice for some in game justification.  i still wouldnt call it rpg.  Heck, you can do that to most any game save the more abstract ones.  Are they all rpgs?  Only if you reduce the term to meaninglessness.  

This living through the character is one of those 'elements' that i spoke of that many other games support.  But they never really seems like an rpg.  Because its still me whose doing the action.  

Quote

 making poker-like-odds  decisions based on  what I think  my character would  do. I  want to  live vicariously  through my  character, living


You said you want to live through your character, I could ask how smart the character is, but really i'd be asking how smart you are.  I could ask how good a fighter is, but really i'd be asking how good a fighter you are. I could ask a bunch of things, but after a while, its pretty apparent the character is superfluous.  Its all you.  The character is superflous in the RTS i mention above as well.

Until its the character that determines success, your game is about as much an rpg as any rts game is.
WonderBrick
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Reply #45 on: October 21, 2004, 03:28:13 AM

We will have to agree to disagree.  

Maybe I did not get the Shadowclan point across as clearly as I could have.  But there is no doubt that Shadowclan represent a fully--fleshed out, and respected form of RP.  They hate humans, demand tribute, act grumpy ingame and otherwise outside the game, they kill my horse because they are hungry, smoke my nightshade, beatup the gruntees, train the gruntees, each have their own backstory, etc.  When they fight humans, they do so with as much fierceness as I would expect from an orc.  Everything they do is done as the character they developed would do it.  They are not the brightest of creatures, but within the restrictions they have placed on themselves, they excel.  etc, etc.  There is very little  of the Rolling/numbers game going on.

It might not be the approach you enjoy, but it is not any less RP in my book.

"Please dont confuse roleplaying with rollplaying. Thanks."   -Shannow

"Just cuz most MMO use the leveling treadmill doesn't mean I have to lower my "fun standards" to the common acceptance. Simply put, I'm not gonna do that."  -I flyin high
Krakrok
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Reply #46 on: October 21, 2004, 08:40:38 AM

Quote from: rscott
OMFG NOTHING YOU DO IS RPPPPPP.....


What. The. Fuck. I don't see how the Shadowclan is any less roleplaying than any PnP game. If you're not throwing dice it isn't roleplaying? As far as I can tell from your position you are claiming that EverQuest is more roleplaying than the Shadowclan because you are forced to sit there for 200 hours of your life pressing A to get to level 65. And this is roleplaying because it's impossible to deviate from the stats on your character. Whatever you're smoking hook the rest of us up!


Why don't you tell us what 10 on your RP scale is? And if your answer is LARP I think I might cry.
rscott
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Reply #47 on: October 21, 2004, 09:57:49 AM

Krakrok,
Please don't quote me like that.  And nice strawman, save it for dorothy.

Wonderbrick,
Quote

We will have to agree to disagree.


Agreed.

I understand what you said about the Shadowclan did, and i like it. But i feel that the amount of RPing is partially dependent on the game system. And if the game system has the character determining the results, thats imo more roleplaying than if the player determines the results.  The Shadowclan did a great job with what they had to work with.

I would like it if some of those things they did with the clan could  be made in game, like Gurps or Champions has done with their  advantages/disadvantages system.  That you could impose a restriction on your character, at generation time or later in game, that you do not  get along with humans, or that you refuse to use swords.  Or that you are honorable and refuse to backstab.  And that you might gain extra  attribute points or something for that.
HaemishM
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Reply #48 on: October 21, 2004, 10:00:30 AM

Roleplaying is about your ACTIONS being defined by the personality you imbue the character with, whether that personality is different from your own or not.

It has fuck all to do with the statistics your character has; those are just mechanics to allow you to resolve the actions your character takes.

Shannow
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Reply #49 on: October 21, 2004, 10:55:59 AM

Agree with Haemish. Rscott I have to say your idea of roleplaying is truely screwed up..

Id rather see someone who plays a good character that occasionally violates some of the 'stats/rules' of their character sheet than someone who sits there and yells 'You can't say that! You only have an int of 3! That's cheating!'....Thats what we call being a rules lawyer....

Thats why I always liked playing D&D because the rules were pretty uncomplicated and everyone knew so them that we could spend time being our characters instead of consulting a rule book every 2 minutes.

Rules/states are a backbone, not full metal plate.

Someone liked something? Who the fuzzy fuck was this heretic? You don't come to this website and enjoy something. Fuck that. ~ The Walrus
Shannow
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Reply #50 on: October 21, 2004, 11:04:46 AM

Now maybe I see where your going in that the rules should be hardcoded into the game so that they enforce roleplaying.
The problem is how do you hardcode a system to cover all the permbutations of human interaction?
Really the desire to be in character must come from the player themselves and the players around them.
This very well maybe impossible in todays MmOLG environment.

But at the end of the day I think Id rather have players enforcing RP themselves instead of trying the impossible task of coding it into the game.

Someone liked something? Who the fuzzy fuck was this heretic? You don't come to this website and enjoy something. Fuck that. ~ The Walrus
Alkiera
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Reply #51 on: October 21, 2004, 11:10:20 AM

Quote from: rscott
But i feel that the amount of RPing is partially dependent on the game system.


I disagree completely.  The amount of roleplaying has nothing to do with the game system.  Little kids will roleplay with no system whatsoever... and you can have the most complex set of restrictions and chance algorithms to define a character, and still have people saying 'Sup thou?' in public channels.  Roleplaying is in the players.  All MMOGs to date have had nearly microscopic groups of people that actually roleplayed.  Whereas there are online games, MU*s and the like, where there is very little combat system, where roleplaying is something everyone participates in.  Matt's muds, Achaea, Imperium, etc, manage to bridge the gap in that they have quite a few players, have a well defined system, and yet the players still roleplay.  It has nothing to do with the system, you could try to powergame all you want, it would only get you so far.

In those systems where roleplaying is happening on a large scale, it has nothing to do with interacting with NPCs, and everything to do with interacting with other players.  Not neccesarily combat with them...  interaction.  In Iron Realms games, you actually need to see another player to be trained in your skills, to find out where your guildhall is, and how you get into it, and to learn how best to use those skills once your character has been trained in them.  Players make the vast majority of equipment.  They can load NPCs with their wares, but only so much.  The other players also teach the lore, and enforce the guild's alliances and enemies.

All of that has nothing to do with the 'system' and everything to do with the humans behind the terminals.  Trying to enforce roleplay with systems only provide a crutch, and will typically create the limit to which players will roleplay.  If your system forces them to reoleplay up to point X, they will stop right there, and become no more immersed than that, never see points Y or Z that they could have reached by having your players encourage them.

--
Alkiera

"[I could] become the world's preeminent MMO class action attorney.  I could be the lawyer EVEN AMBULANCE CHASERS LAUGH AT. " --Triforcer

Welcome to the internet. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used as evidence against you in a character assassination on Slashdot.
rscott
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Reply #52 on: October 21, 2004, 12:43:05 PM

I don't argue that.  But i clearly said  *partially dependent*, not *completely dependent*, or  even *dependent*.  Assuming you can't ignore the software altogether, i think the amount of RPing  in the framework of a tetris game would be generally quite limited.

The software can't enforce RPing, but it can certainly hinder it.
Alkiera
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The best part of SWG was the easy account cancellation process.


Reply #53 on: October 21, 2004, 09:36:21 PM

Quote from: rscott
I don't argue that.  But i clearly said  *partially dependent*, not *completely dependent*, or  even *dependent*.  Assuming you can't ignore the software altogether, i think the amount of RPing  in the framework of a tetris game would be generally quite limited.

The software can't enforce RPing, but it can certainly hinder it.


I agree on both counts.  Tetris is a rather abstract game, there are no roles in it at all.  IMO, as long as the system provides roles to choose from, even if they are 'sniper, soldier, engineer, medic, scout', then the system allows for roleplaying.  It may not encourage it, but it allows for it.  

As far as the system hindering RP, I feel that this is primarily caused by lack of immersion, lack of sufficient different roles, 'artificial' systems like character levels which seperate players, and other systems which discourage player gathering.  I believe that players really have the greatest effect on the nature of roleplaying on a server, much moreso, even, than the system.  If people want to RP, even if the system discourages it, they often will.  Also, if a new player sees existing players RPing, they are more likely to give it a shot than if they log in to find a discussion of the Yankees and Red Sox.

--
Alkiera

"[I could] become the world's preeminent MMO class action attorney.  I could be the lawyer EVEN AMBULANCE CHASERS LAUGH AT. " --Triforcer

Welcome to the internet. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used as evidence against you in a character assassination on Slashdot.
Raguel
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Reply #54 on: October 21, 2004, 10:06:21 PM

Heh the issue here is that people are using the world roleplay to mean two different things.

Certainly roleplay includes how you think your character feels about a situation, or will react to a given incident, but rscott's point is that your character's skill (and not the player's) should determine a segment of roleplay. For example it's hard to roleplay a great warrior if you the player suck at it, or roleplay a horrible thief if truth be told your character is no better or worse than anybody else. Having said that I'd rather gouge out my eyes than play another mmorpg where combat consisted of hitting auto attack and going to the fridge.
Kageru
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Reply #55 on: October 21, 2004, 10:17:35 PM

The funny thing is I've played a lot of EQ, supposedly the origin of the "hit autoattack, go AFK". And that only holds even remotely true if you're in a moronic grind group. A warrior in a challenging environment not only can't go AFK they get lots of opportunity to show skill. Which means an average warrior will demontrate the extent of how much they suck. Thus someone talking about "going AFK", if they are referring to EQ, is basically confirming that they never reached or attempted the actually challenging parts of the game. In short it says as much about the player as it does about the game.

Anyway, from a game mechanics point of view "warrior" is a fully sufficient role. And thus it counts as roleplaying. Whether you can show skill in the tactical domain and be a skilled warrior, or show ability in the social domain and project an identity, are parallel concerns. Or to put it another way you don't have to roleplay to play a role.

Is a man not entitled to the hurf of his durf?
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Raguel
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Reply #56 on: October 21, 2004, 10:23:23 PM

Heh it's more of an exaggeration. I didn't play a warrior for too long (too boring). My main was a paladin and I never had any issues with keeping agro, rooting adds, etc, but I also didn't have as much fun with combat as with my DAoC hybrids. You'd think it would be the opposite since EQ hybrids have more spells, but melee combat just flat out sucked in EQ (note: I quit just before DAoC came out, so it might have gotten better).
WonderBrick
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Reply #57 on: October 22, 2004, 04:04:18 AM

What should govern RP more, numbers or imagination?

"Please dont confuse roleplaying with rollplaying. Thanks."   -Shannow

"Just cuz most MMO use the leveling treadmill doesn't mean I have to lower my "fun standards" to the common acceptance. Simply put, I'm not gonna do that."  -I flyin high
personman
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Reply #58 on: October 22, 2004, 05:16:40 AM

As soon as RP is defined by numbers it's exploited by power gamers.  This is true in pnp as well as electronic.
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Reply #59 on: October 22, 2004, 07:24:04 AM

Quote from: personman
As soon as RP is defined by numbers it's exploited by power gamers.  This is true in pnp as well as electronic.


Exactly.  The system/software should be a base upon which RP is built, not codified rules for everything that is possible, otherwise you limit what is possible to what there is rules for...  thus the tendancy for all player interaction to work down to fighting in most MMOs, because combat is the only well-fleshed out system.

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Alkiera

"[I could] become the world's preeminent MMO class action attorney.  I could be the lawyer EVEN AMBULANCE CHASERS LAUGH AT. " --Triforcer

Welcome to the internet. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used as evidence against you in a character assassination on Slashdot.
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Reply #60 on: October 22, 2004, 08:48:57 AM

Quote
What should govern RP more, numbers or imagination?


That depends on what aspect of rp we are talking about imo. Numbers have little to do with your character's background, political affiliation, etc.This question though reminds me of the time I was roleplaying a samurai and I wanted to pull off this crazy maneuver (hey, I had the dex :p). The GM just looked at me like I was nuts and laughed. He laughed even harder after the roll :).
Kageru
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Reply #61 on: October 22, 2004, 09:40:51 AM

Quote from: WonderBrick
What should govern RP more, numbers or imagination?


Both, they're completely parallel systems. One is the character within the world and one is the world within the character. You're free to believe you can fly and the world is free to apportion falling damage.

Of course the fact that computer AI isn't really practical for MMORPG applications yet also has a certain say in what the boundaries are.

Is a man not entitled to the hurf of his durf?
- Simond
WonderBrick
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Reply #62 on: October 22, 2004, 11:38:02 PM

Look at the games that most MMORPGs are based on.  They are from a community that, by choice and/or by technical limitations, had to form a foundation(world physics, if you will) on which the RP imagination could be played out.  Now look at what sets a good GM/DM apart from a bad one.  Is it the strictly anal way they approach the numbers, or the imagination that they bring to the table?

"Please dont confuse roleplaying with rollplaying. Thanks."   -Shannow

"Just cuz most MMO use the leveling treadmill doesn't mean I have to lower my "fun standards" to the common acceptance. Simply put, I'm not gonna do that."  -I flyin high
Kageru
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Reply #63 on: October 23, 2004, 12:13:33 AM

This thread is about MMORPG's. In such a context any mention of human GM's is irrelevant until one of two conditions are met. You come up with an economic model that will fund one human GM per ~10 players or you develop a fully functional, computationally affordable, AI. Since I don't expect to be alive when either of these happen I'm not going to waste neurons considering it.

Is a man not entitled to the hurf of his durf?
- Simond
Alkiera
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Reply #64 on: October 23, 2004, 12:42:23 AM

Quote from: WonderBrick
Look at the games that most MMORPGs are based on.  They are from a community that, by choice and/or by technical limitations, had to form a foundation(world physics, if you will) on which the RP imagination could be played out.  Now look at what sets a good GM/DM apart from a bad one.  Is it the strictly anal way they approach the numbers, or the imagination that they bring to the table?


Which is a good point.  In fact, the genre has bad connotations around 'rules lawyer' and other similar names for people who know all the rules and go overboard with applying them.  A computer program is the ultimate rules lawyer.

And then there are games like Amber Diceless RPG, which I don't think rscott would even call an RPG... Your character had a rank in a few stats, strength, endurance, dexterity, and willpower, I think.  It basically set up a pecking order for each stat, to settle contests between characters.  You then used remaining points to define some background traits, what kinds of powers you had access to (not specific powers, but generic 'sets' of powers), any special items or places you had access to, special knowledge.

Then the DM unleashed the players on each other, in a 'game of thrones' type game, which was often PvP and sometime PvE.  The point being, that there were never any system-determined results.  No hitpoints, no damage tables, no dice or other random means of determining results.  The whole of the game was based on products of the players' imaginations, not a GM guide.

The point of the Amber game was that the developers thought the system was often a crutch to roleplay; sure it helped people who hadn't figured RP out yet, but because everyone had to use it, it held those who wished to really get into their characters back from their potential.  The Amber universe is one where you have an infinite level of flexibility, anything you can come up with can exist.  Trying to write a system which would allow for that would have been insanely difficult.  So they didn't.

Consider that one of the main aspects of RPGs is that you're telling a story or your character, as he/she progresses from above-average nobody to world-renowned hero.  When people tell these kinds of stories, they use several tricks to keep the story interesting, including time compression, so years of practice in magic or sword use or whatever happen between chapters, or while the character is not the focus of attention; and deus ex machina, where things seem to work out for the main character for no discernable reason other than it is dramatically appropriate.  The first is something that RPGs seem horrid at, in that you, the player, must experience every dead goblin, orc, troll, large mouse, mutant spider your character ever sees.  This leads to the tedium of MMOs, because there's a reason the authors skip those parts... they're boring as heck.  As far as the deus ex machina, we get a bit of that in quests, but it looks bad when you do the quest a second time for your buddy, and is a joke by the time you've done it a 50th time for a new guildmember.

Frankly, I personally believe traditional 'RPG' games aren't really compatible with the MMO framework.  There is too much focus on becoming a hero, a world-changer, in the RPG genre to have it work out properly with more than a few important characters, nevermind thousands.  This is especially true for fantasy, whereas comic-hero systems have fewer issues, since all the heroes typically affect a limited area of effect(often one city), which allows for other heroes to be doing their thing elsewhere.  There just isn't room for more than a couple world-shaking heroes in any universe, so one designed to allow hundreds or thousands of them is bound to have problems.

Wow, that got long and rambly.

--
Alkiera

"[I could] become the world's preeminent MMO class action attorney.  I could be the lawyer EVEN AMBULANCE CHASERS LAUGH AT. " --Triforcer

Welcome to the internet. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used as evidence against you in a character assassination on Slashdot.
Kageru
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Reply #65 on: October 23, 2004, 01:44:51 AM

That so takes me back. The debates between the rules lawyers and free-form RP fans just went on for ever. But the really funny thing is there's not really that much difference. In both environments any interaction outside the character needed to be judged. In a rules based systems a lot of judgements become regular and automatic, I don't have to go through the DM because the rules are obvious. In a freeform system there is not that regularity so you're entirely dependant on the current mood of the DM.

It's the same for stats. In original D&D if I have 18/00 strength I know I am as strong as any mortal man can be, and I know how to apply that strength to certain routine tasks. In a freeform system I might be "strong", and all of a sudden even the most mundane actions need to be judged by the DM. The mechanics of my character became fuzzy and uncertain.

In other words all that rules represent are standard GM jusgements, a shared environment between the GM and the players on how the world works, and the best GM's recognised this. The game mechanics allow them to focus on the big picture stuff, but the right to over-rule the general mechanics in any specific case is always reserved.

Of course computers are hopelessly dumb. And the programmer time needed to make them smart grows exponentionally the more sophisitication you demand. It simply isn't economically viable to craft a game that is that much smarter than some of the current ones.

I could also argue that fantasy is dominant because of some mechanical advantages. It's hard to have a group based game when people have automobiles, mobile phones and you can engage the mob at sniper rifle range. You can see this in why SWG combat simply doesn't work. And I'll be interested to see how MxO ends up working. Superhero's probably work because of their limits. The game doesn't allow your super-hero to pick up an assault rifle or phone in an air-strike because it's not in genre, even if the technology allows it.

I see your ramble and raise you a wandering discursion.

Is a man not entitled to the hurf of his durf?
- Simond
AOFanboi
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Reply #66 on: October 23, 2004, 02:37:46 AM

Quote from: Kageru
In a rules based systems a lot of judgements become regular and automatic, I don't have to go through the DM because the rules are obvious. In a freeform system there is not that regularity so you're entirely dependant on the current mood of the DM.

It's also a problem with the style championed by the makers of the diceless (not really system-less) RPGs.

For instance, the ranking system in Amber is like playing RPS where one player has the rock, another the paper and a third the scissors. So rock guy goes up against scissors guy, and win because he outranks the other in that particular skill. But then paper guy goes up against rock guy (using a different ability), and wins because of rank. In MMORPGs, this can be matched by FOTM min/max-ers. Amber was mainly played by fans of Zelazny's novels, but there were many of them (since they are very good).

One of the most vocal pro-diceless arguers back on rec.games.frp was David Berkman, maker of Theatrix. In that game, Story is king, and the players could be allowed to affect it somewhat, but never totally derail it. But what do you expect from people who published a sourcebook based on an adult comic book (Ironwood).

The third diceless system, Everway, was hardly played by anyone: It's major aspect was some trading cards you used to interpret to decide the backstory for your immensely powerful character. The diceless branch died out soon after.

I prefer simple systems in RPGs, but never random-less: FUDGE and Prince Valiant come to mind as very simple systems that give plenty of opportunity to roleplay.

The issue with computer RPGs is that everything has to be in numbers and formulas, so there will never be true roleplaying, unless you have GMs around at all times, and they can only handle a few players at a time. This will in effect remove the "massive" part, but could be an interesting alternative for people wanting the RPG to matter more. Both the old Vampire game and NWN support this kind of play.

Current: Mario Kart DS, Nintendogs
Kageru
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Reply #67 on: October 23, 2004, 03:12:17 AM

Even with unlimited human GM's the system doesn't scale. As you get a large number of people sharing the world the GM's must be balanced, which means they will have to follow increasingly strict rules and avoid any deviation or risk being accused of favoritism, with all the acrimony in brings. I saw this in the rare attempts to do multi-GM games.

But there is roleplaying in EQ, "I'm a warrior, you're the wizard" is roleplaying. It's not all that roleplaying can be, but it is sufficient and consistent.

Is a man not entitled to the hurf of his durf?
- Simond
rscott
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Reply #68 on: October 24, 2004, 05:23:38 AM

Quote from: Alkiera
And then there are games like Amber Diceless RPG, which I don't think rscott would even call an RPG... Your character had a rank in a few stats, strength, endurance, dexterity, and willpower, I think. It basically set up a pecking order for each stat, to settle contests between characters.


Well, as opposed to you (i think) I tend to put things on a scale.  No game is 100% rpg, or 0% rgp  compatible. They are shades of grey.  The scale is based on which affects character success more, the character, or the player.  The more the results depend on the character, the higher i put it on the scale.  The rating is independent of dice or computer involvement.  The rules even are irrelevent.  It could  be all randomly picked from the GMs head.

So... seeing as there is a method to determine success in Amber, and it appears to have nothing to do with the player, i would guess that Amber would rate higher on my personal RPG scale, towards the RPG end.
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Reply #69 on: October 27, 2004, 03:01:39 AM

One of the core rules of game design that many game designers use is:
Quote
Never force the player to take damage.


Elderscrolls IV(sequel to Morrowind) gets what I am looking for in player-skill combat right.  It is not hard numbers vs hard numbers.

Quote
Combat is one of the major gameplay elements that's being completely revamped in Oblivion. Some of the most interesting feedback the team got from Morrowind players concerned the nature of combat. PC gamers are used to Western RPG conventions, most of which are derived from Dungeons & Dragons -- conventions that include behind-the scenes die rolls to determine success or failure. Those conventions aren't nearly as common on consoles, especially in first-person perspective games such as Morrowind. Howard described it this way: "It's amazing how many people played Morrowind and said (to us), 'Why is my character missing when he swings? The enemy is right there!,' or 'Why did that guy see me? I thought I was hiding.'"

"We've realized how much combat people really do in a game like this and made it more of a priority to get it right," Howard continued. The Oblivion team actually developed three entirely new combat systems and did extensive testing on them all before settling on the one that will be in the final game. The basic idea of Oblivion combat is to impart the 'kinetic energy feeling' of guys bashing each other with swords. The game will have a number of special moves available and blocking is actively under player control, not automatic. As a result, timing moves, shielding yourself, and responding to the enemy becomes a key strategy in fighting. The team also didn't shy away from the gore either. It isn't over the top or gratuitous, but it does fall in line with the design philosophy of trying to make the game as realistic as possible. Basically, when you really smack someone with a sword, you expect a certain level of blood to come spewing out, so the team is trying to fulfill those expectations.

Action gamers, on the other hand, won't necessarily have an unfair advantage. As Howard himself pointed out, the combat system in every Elder Scrolls game has walked a fine line between RPG and action. They've all been first-person and players always controlled their sword arm in real time, but in prior games, the die rolls added an extra layer of randomness between the player and the world. While the combat system of Oblivion tries to remove those layers, RPG players can breathe easy knowing that their beloved stats haven't gone anywhere. This difference this time is that the player's stats determine what they can do, and how effective those things are, but they're now in full control of the "when." Blocking a blow is manual, for instance, but the effectiveness of that block is determined by your character's block skill -- things like how much damage the block absorbs, how much fatigues it causes and so forth. Striking an enemy with a sword is no longer random, but the amount of damage caused is a function of strength and weapon skill.


Source


Getting away from the combat discussion for a moment, Oblivion Producer, Todd Howard, talks about a few important things(bold emphasise is mine):

Quote
The first thing we do when we start a game like this is say -- "What did the fans like about the last game? What do they want improved?" Over the years we've gotten thousands of letters from you all, and we can't thank you enough. Yes, we read them all. Our forums are an endless source of inspiration to us. From Arena to Daggerfall to Morrowind, we've had the best fans you could ask for over the last 10 years. They're smart, engaged, and full of wild excitement. Keep it up.

But there is a key part of this plan that has guided The Elder Scrolls every time we do a new one, and that is "Reinvention." You see, even though each game has been a sequel to the last game, our goal is to always make a new game that stands on its own, that has its own identity. Even down to the naming of them, our games are generally known by their single name, and not their numbered sequence. How do we create the definitive "RPG for the Next Generation?" Not just in terms of technology -- but how it plays?

We go back to the main theme of the series -- "Live another life, in another world" -- and think about how we can make that come alive for the next game. To simply add onto Arena would never have yielded Daggerfall, and to add onto Daggerfall would never have yielded Morrowind. To present the best game we can each time, we must reinvent it for the next generation of hardware and gameplay.

So we reach all the way back to Arena, see what worked then. Replay Daggerfall -- what worked well there, and of course Morrowind. We then look at what games of the future could do. Not just RPGs, but what could any game do? What are the key elements that make a great RPG and how can they be done in the future?


Source

This is what I like to hear and see.

Why are most current MMORPGs so seemingly content to focus on retention tactics over player fun, hard numbers over gameplay, and evolution over innovation?  I don't fault current MMORPG success, but I want something more then just the current formula selection offers.

And finally, Todd Howard says

Quote
"Live another life, in another world"


Yes.  I want to live another life, not watch my character live it.  This is one major point where RP philosophies clash.

"Please dont confuse roleplaying with rollplaying. Thanks."   -Shannow

"Just cuz most MMO use the leveling treadmill doesn't mean I have to lower my "fun standards" to the common acceptance. Simply put, I'm not gonna do that."  -I flyin high
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