The cockblock of EvE

[Calantus]

Are we just socializing here?

Is this a problem for you Bob?

[Mrbloodworth]

You don't grind to progress in WoW, not if you want to do it quickly, you power quest. I'm sure that sounds anathema to you but I enjoy power gaming of that sort.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!


"Oooo, i got a quest to kill 60 razorback, and the item that drops IS RANDOM and LOW rate! I love power questing.This isn't grinding at all, look at the dumb asses killing the razorbacks with NO quest! Wonder if they will let me group....?"




Sorry, you left your self open for that one.

[Snee]

I haven't looked recently but I think I have 55million-ish skill points.

after you get you first set of skills to level 4, you are within 5% of power parity with *anyone* regardless of their SP's... given the exingencies of engagement in eve, that just isnt a big deal. if you get to level 5, (and you will) you will be identical to them in all circumstances where the skill is applied. After that, all you can do is learn to fly a *different ship*. The very old guard in eve 90m+ SP can fly more things than I (or you can) but they can't fly them better. The marginal benefit from skill increases in EVE is tiny. Really.

For the last 2.5 years I have been desperately looking for skills to train, since I had my command ship, which had been my goal.

Eve is really about goal setting. I want a vexor, I want a apoc, I want a trillion isk. (don't recommend the latter, it's real grindy if your name isn't Khatred.)

and the nice thing about EVE is that you can have *different* goals from other people, it isn't always about max lexel with combat optimized gear. (optimization is rather situational in EVE)

The point is, the "cockblock" is VERY short term .... especially now that you can pop into a cruiser almost instantly with the right creation choices. Until you pick a new goal. Then you will be "blocked" as long as it takes you to achieve that goal, which unless you decide on something insanely grindy, won't be very long. Welcome to a realistic virtual world.

Useful, exciting combat is quickly available. Since EVE life is mostly about the corp op, even not being able to pilot the Strip Miner of (a)Steroidal Death immediately shouldn't be an issue. You might have to guard/recon someone else's strip miner of (a)Steroidal death for a little while. Believe me, it isnt less fun.

Plus you can have (and destroy/capture) player owned spacestations. Holy shit but that's cool.

I suppose one could eventually reach the point where one's only remaining goal, is "I want to pod that evil SOB repeatedly, until he loses his mind on the forums", if the political and economic metagames aren't interesting to you, but really someone having more skill points than you is so very irrelevant.

I know someone with 100m+ skillpoints. They haven't undocked in years. Literally.

EVE is the least restrictive mmog I've seen (where you are allowed to blow shit up at least). It is absurdly deep. I think it takes too much real life time to play well, but the idea that the in-game skill system is limiting is silly.


Snee

[Moosehands]

In EvE you unlock new features by waiting and paying their subscription.  I find this unacceptable.  The strength of your character in eve is directly related to the amount of subscription money you have paid them which is even more bogus then strength being directly related to time played.

Once again, this is demonstrably untrue.

1.  Start a brand new character on a free trial.
2.  Scam, scam, scam.
3.  Scam some more.  I'm talking Phantom console level scamming here.
4.  Take your ill-gotten isk, head over to the official trade forums, and buy yourself a high SP character.
5.  (optional) Use that high SP character to regularly earn enough isk to pay your subscription fee.

I'm trying hard to think of another monthly subscription based MMO where you can go from free trial to "epic" while never paying a dime of real money to the company (hyperbole; you might have to pay a character transfer fee) or engaging in RMT, using methods that are 100% sanctioned by the publisher of the game.  Can anyone else point to one?

[Kitsune]

Lemme just say, Snee, the skill point mountain looks a LOT taller when you're at the bottom of it.  For example, I just blew eight days training Frigates V so I could open up Assault Ships and Interceptors.  And if I want Heavy Assault Ships, which I do, I need to train up Assault Ships, Cruisers, Weapon Upgrades, and Starship Command.  Once I have that, I need to get Medium Laser Turrets to 5 for the T2 lasers...

And so on and so forth.  I'm looking at at least a couple of months of skill training, just to be able to pilot a relatively small ship in the grand scheme of things.  A couple of months in most any other MMORPG gets you to max level with all the goodies.

[IainC]

Lemme just say, Snee, the skill point mountain looks a LOT taller when you're at the bottom of it.  For example, I just blew eight days training Frigates V so I could open up Assault Ships and Interceptors.  And if I want Heavy Assault Ships, which I do, I need to train up Assault Ships, Cruisers, Weapon Upgrades, and Starship Command.  Once I have that, I need to get Medium Laser Turrets to 5 for the T2 lasers...

And so on and so forth.  I'm looking at at least a couple of months of skill training, just to be able to pilot a relatively small ship in the grand scheme of things.  A couple of months in most any other MMORPG gets you to max level with all the goodies.

To be fair though you're looking at some pimped options in that lot. T2 ships are leet for a reason. If you just wanted to fly something better than a frigate then a cruiser and a battlecruiser would be doable in about half that time. I'm working my way up the T2 ship tree at the moment but I went a different route through all the T1 sub-capital options first, filling out fitting and combat skills as I went.

For a relatively noob pilot with poor fitting skills, you're nearly always better off in a larger class of T1 ship than you are in a T2 vessel.

[Morat20]

For a relatively noob pilot with poor fitting skills, you're nearly always better off in a larger class of T1 ship than you are in a T2 vessel.

I'd second that -- I wouldn't want to fly ANY T2 ships without my support skills being really well developed. It's a good way to lose a nice T2 ship. :)

[Thrawn]

A couple of months into WoW you're level 70 depending on how often you play.  But if you want to REALLY see the good stuff you now need to grind out reputation, you need to grind out some good gear, you need to get hooked up with a guild and possibly start working on organizing raids.  The good end game guilds probably won't even give you the time of day because you are unexperianced and undergeared.  Then you probably need to start clearing the easiest raid first in order to get good enough gear to move up to a more difficult raid.  But since it's random loot tables and you probably won't have the same people in raid every time you need to clear it over and over and over again.  Oh, did I mention you're on a raid timer and can only clear the place once or twice a week?  Then after you finally get the instance down and get enough gear you can move up to the next more difficult raid and start the process all over again, but then OOOPS your two main tanks quit for a different guild and now you are set back to the previous instance for a few more weeks.  Before you know it you are playing 40 hours a week for 6 months and you STILL haven't been able to see the Black Temple.  Eventually you realize you will NEVER see that endgame content, and since the motivation to get to it was the only reason you played you get sick of the game and quit.

Meanwhile, I've been playing EvE, I've been going out every weekend and playing when I feel like and I'm still progressing at a decent pace to whatever my personal goal may be.  But with my relatively low skills I can still be of help to a fleet of veteran players and enjoy, or work to any of the game content I wish to explore.

[Sir T]

I'll tell you a little lesson I learned over a year ago.

I was in a low sec alliance continuously harrased by jerks (by the way the jerk quotient in eve is extreamly high and they always are in their pimped out bought characters) I was in a Dominix Battleship, level 5 and  evil drone skills but because I only have 1 character I never had the income to compete with the twerps that had a 10/10 complex. So I used to throw myself infront of their gangs and die but time how long I lasted. Then one day I thought "Hey I have some cash, lets put on some t2 hardeners on the Domi and see how long they last. And I might as well train up t2 drones as well." Loaded them up and expected to last a bit longer but still die.

The result was 2 months of solid pownage where that ship lasted through several major battles and the war that destroyed that alliance and killed a metric fuckload of crap.

I was the same person. Same skills, same reactions, same setup, same tactics. The difference between me bieng a footnote to a 4 man raid gang and having them run in terror was the t2 gear.

Thats when I stopped believing eve PVP has anything to do with skill. The guys you are fighting will have faster, more maneuverable ships, be tougher and do more damage even before you factor in the multiplier of their better gear. On top of that they will have the combat implants that mean they are even more powerful in every way and the rigs that mean their ships will be even more effective. And when the ship you have worked on for two weeks is blown to dust by this guy that had 5 similar ships in his hanger and several sets of those implants just in case, simply because he has a 0.0 moon somewhere and access to 0.0 rats, he will tell you you lost because of "lack of skill." Raw skill means jack all and its the hidden little secret of eve.

Its designed so that you need several characters to be effective, because having only 1 character and gaining he income for the good shit you need to even be in the ballpark is practically impossible. Its designed so that you can buy isk from CCP  so that you don't have to grind (you trade game time cards.. but its a legal way of using real life cash to buy an advantage in the game, and lines CCPs pockets) Its a very cleverly hidden little pyramid scheme, and frankly its boring as hell once you realize that. Those that realize it buy characters to stay ahead of everyone else. If skillpoints were not a big factor, why do you think there is such a demand for high skillpoint chars? Enough said.

[edit] Oh can I say it obvious the servers can't handle the "cool" shit that they have already in the game, but they are still answering complaints about the worsening performance with "Hey look new promised feature! Shiney!"

[Slayerik]

I will say I agree somewhat....but now with invention Tech 2 mods are pretty damn cheap. Back in the day, with the T2 BPO monopolies people could charge outrageous prices. The gap has somewhat closed.

[Valmorian]

I'll tell you a little lesson I learned over a year ago.

Ouch.  I was considering continuing after the trial, but that was a wakeup call.. in a game that stresses PvP, that doesn't sound like much fun..

[Ratman_tf]

Yeah. Tech 2 is a decent and valid complaint. It's what's kept me from PvPing more.
The counter (AFAIK) is to get a blob of tech 1 guys together, and outnumber them. Not a possibility for some people.

I still contend that Eve has a shallower power curve than most EQ clones, but it's not non-existant.

[Viin]

A year ago I would have thought the same thing (Folks with T2 modules pwn!) but now, with just a little money, I can have a T2 fitted BS no problem. T2 modules have dropped a *ton* in price, so anyone with just a little bit of cash can fit out T2 gear without a problem. (I think I bought a new BS and all the T2 modules I need with my plat insurance payout from my last BS - maybe a little over, but not more than 10-20mil).

They sometimes even cost *less* than the meta 4 version of the T1 module, but are normally about the same.

The only thing blocking you from using T2 may be skills (such as T2 Hybrid turrets needing small/med/large turret specialization).

[Morat20]

Ouch.  I was considering continuing after the trial, but that was a wakeup call.. in a game that stresses PvP, that doesn't sound like much fun..

It's bullshit. You'd be better off talking to some of Bat Country. Yeah, T2 makes a difference -- just like raiding gear makes a difference over quest gear in WoW. It just doesn't make NEARLY as much of a difference, and fighting is rarely 1v1 with "all else being equal". You're rarely, if ever, going to be fighting someone in the same ship with the same fittings as you -- EVE is pretty unique.

It doesn't really matter in any case, as early PvP you don't WANT T2 shit because you're going to die a lot getting the hang of it, and you lose everything when you pop. As it is, right out-of-the-box characters can and do lock down 3 year old characters in full T2 shit. Your newb ECM frig isn't going to kill his nice BS on your own, but you've taken his ass out of the fight as effectively as if you had blown him up.

And your swarm of friends WILL kick his ass and turn his T2-fitted ship into dust.

Skills are much the same way -- take Mechanics. Each rank gives you 5% increase to your armor (or is it structure? Doesn't matter). Sure, the guy that spends two weeks training it to 5/5 will have a 25% boost to his armor. You can train it for about a day and get a 15% boost to yours, and save the other two ranks for some other time. 25% is better than 15%, but it doesn't really mean much in the long term of a small gang fight.

T2 stuff works a little better, you can fit a bit more -- T2 ships are the big jump (T2 modules are generally pretty easy to get) and they cost an arm and a leg, and they're easy to swarm with T1 stuff. And the odds don't have to be that tilted -- someone in a T2 deathmachine is going to be useless if you're flying with a decent EWAR friend, even if both of you are flying T1 and fitting T1. He can't hurt what he can't shoot.

Skill matters a great deal more, as does effective tactics.

Sir T's exagerrating matters rather heavily, as best I can tell. Yeah, my Vex in full T1 is inferior to a Vex in full T2 (fuck, it's mostly the T2 drones there. T2 drones are nasty), and I'd lose 1v1. But all I need is a friend with a few smartbombs and I'd be okay. :)

Viin: Are the insurance payouts on Domi's still worth more than the hull these days? :)

[Viin]

Viin: Are the insurance payouts on Domi's still worth more than the hull these days? :)

Can't say for sure on Domi's, but payout on a Rokh leaves you about 60mil extra after replacing the hull. Of course, that doesn't count the actual insurance payment (40mil) so I guess it's really around 20mil extra.

[IainC]

The T2 thing is not such a big deal in all honesty. Firstly gear and skills nearly always lose to numbers. Secondly T2 stuff isn't hard to get and often isn't markedly better than T1 modules.

In general if there's only two versions of a thing; a T1 and T2 option (like drones for example) then the T2 version will be far and away superior. For most modules though the difference isn't so clear cut and in some cases there may be a better t1 variant (T2 modules often take more resources to fit and have higher training requirements). There is nearly always a T1 version available which has 95% of the effectiveness for a fraction of the cost.

Picking an example at random, compare this T2 Large Armour Repairer with this T1 equivalent.
The T1 repairs 720hp every 15 seconds as opposed to the T2 units 800hp but the T2 module takes more CPU and powergrid to fit. In Sinq Laison now, the T2 repairer goes for around 2.4 million Isk while the T1 version is about 200k. 90% of the effectiveness for less than 10% of the cost with a lower fitting overhead.

Viin: Are the insurance payouts on Domi's still worth more than the hull these days? :)

Can't say for sure on Domi's, but payout on a Rokh leaves you about 60mil extra after replacing the hull. Of course, that doesn't count the actual insurance payment (40mil) so I guess it's really around 20mil extra.

Domi's cost about 50-55m each, insure for 18,750,000 and pay 62.5m so, you still lose overall.

[Sir T]

Picking an example at random, compare this T2 Large Armour Repairer with this T1 equivalent.
The T1 repairs 720hp every 15 seconds as opposed to the T2 units 800hp but the T2 module takes more CPU and powergrid to fit. In Sinq Laison now, the T2 repairer goes for around 2.4 million Isk while the T1 version is about 200k. 90% of the effectiveness for less than 10% of the cost with a lower fitting overhead.

Thats a large "accommodation" Vestment reconstructor, the "Best named" t1 amour repairer that is only avalible from battleship NPC drops. Its still fairly common whatever. The actually player built non named t1 is here http://www.eve-online.com/itemdatabase/EN/shipequipment/hullarmor/armorrepairsystems/3538.asp which only repairs 600 units per cycle And if I used it I'd be repping 5-10% faster than you because of my skills. Thats if I don't have an implant or a rig in.

You see just focusing on t2 is not the Whole issue. There are implants that make your armour reps go faster, and rigs that make them give more as well. Its the whole multiplication effect of all that that makes things go screwy. if you have rigs and implants and the other guy doesn't then you will win. Yes there are theoretical tactics to work around that but basically 99.9% of the time all the effects of all those different things working together will make an older player unbeatable.

Oh and did I mention the gang links that people can give? the ones that make you faster and toughter just becasue billybob is sitting in your gang in a gang lead position. Add those multipliers in as well.

Its t2*implants*rigs*gang stuff*your basic skill effects.. Gear gear gear. All those effects combine. Thats one hell of a cliff to climb before a shot is even fired. And if the other guy had the income to consistently throw that stuff onto his ships and you don't then you are in for a hard time.

Anyway I take everyones point. Yes I admit I am a bit bitter, but I have seen so many people try their best, do everything right and simply die in battles that they simply had no chance at all. I found it heartbreaking.

[Snee]

Lemme just say, Snee, the skill point mountain looks a LOT taller when you're at the bottom of it.  For example, I just blew eight days training Frigates V so I could open up Assault Ships and Interceptors.  And if I want Heavy Assault Ships, which I do, I need to train up Assault Ships, Cruisers, Weapon Upgrades, and Starship Command.  Once I have that, I need to get Medium Laser Turrets to 5 for the T2 lasers...

And so on and so forth.  I'm looking at at least a couple of months of skill training, just to be able to pilot a relatively small ship in the grand scheme of things.  A couple of months in most any other MMORPG gets you to max level with all the goodies.

T2 ships are not necessary or even recommended for most combats. War in EVE is often one of attrition, which usually means economic attrition, and stingy use of ships wins. Ships pop a LOT in eve. If you are pvping in perma-t2, you better have more money than you know what to do with, or an alliance with a frightening complete set of BPO's.

 I haven't played in a long time so it may be t2 is cheaper now, but that still doesn't make it a no-brainer.

This is gang warfare. whether you have slightly more grid or recharge isn't nearly as important as how well you tackle, and whether your tactics are better than the other guys.

IMHO- Once you have basic skills to 4, you're fine. Everything else is just ding! addiction or bad math and misplaced envy.

I don't know exactly how many SP you need to be combat viable, but if it's more than a couple million (with adv learning to 3 or 4 even) I would be surprised.

Learning to pilot a Titan or any T2 ship at max efficiency does take a lot longer, but its not relevant to the actual gameplay, and shouldn't be the standard of "parity".

Snee

[Viin]

So don't fight in battles you know you can't win. Seems easy if you ask me! 

[IainC]

Picking an example at random, compare this T2 Large Armour Repairer with this T1 equivalent.
The T1 repairs 720hp every 15 seconds as opposed to the T2 units 800hp but the T2 module takes more CPU and powergrid to fit. In Sinq Laison now, the T2 repairer goes for around 2.4 million Isk while the T1 version is about 200k. 90% of the effectiveness for less than 10% of the cost with a lower fitting overhead.

Thats a large "accommodation" Vestment reconstructor, the "Best named" t1 amour repairer that is only avalible from battleship NPC drops. Its still fairly common whatever. The actually player built non named t1 is here http://www.eve-online.com/itemdatabase/EN/shipequipment/hullarmor/armorrepairsystems/3538.asp which only repairs 600 units per cycle And if I used it I'd be repping 5-10% faster than you because of my skills. Thats if I don't have an implant or a rig in.

There's no shortage of them in the market. There are about 100 for sale in the station I'm in (Auvergne) alone. And yes, if your skills were better than mine it would do more but that's true for all modules.

You see just focusing on t2 is not the Whole issue. There are implants that make your armour reps go faster, and rigs that make them give more as well. Its the whole multiplication effect of all that that makes things go screwy. if you have rigs and implants and the other guy doesn't then you will win. Yes there are theoretical tactics to work around that but basically 99.9% of the time all the effects of all those different things working together will make an older player unbeatable.

Oh and did I mention the gang links that people can give? the ones that make you faster and toughter just becasue billybob is sitting in your gang in a gang lead position. Add those multipliers in as well.

Its t2*implants*rigs*gang stuff*your basic skill effects.. Gear gear gear. All those effects combine. Thats one hell of a cliff to climb before a shot is even fired. And if the other guy had the income to consistently throw that stuff onto his ships and you don't then you are in for a hard time.

Anyway I take everyones point. Yes I admit I am a bit bitter, but I have seen so many people try their best, do everything right and simply die in battles that they simply had no chance at all. I found it heartbreaking.

Not to point too fine a point on it, but you sucked. Rigs and implants are mostly used in PvE because they are insanely expensive for the benefit they give you. Also if you get podded then they are gone forever. Rigs die automatically if your ship goes, if you lose ships regularly (which all PvP pilots do) then rigs are just a very efficient way to give money to the market.

Gang bonuses are nice to have but again, people like AU and GF prove every night that the most terrifying thing on the server is a swarm of 1.5M SP characters flying T1 frigates with some clue of how to play together. I don't care what you're in, your entire gang is going to get violated totally by that lot.

[Sir T]

There's no shortage of them in the market. There are about 100 for sale in the station I'm in (Auvergne) alone. And yes, if your skills were better than mine it would do more but that's true for all modules.

Not to point too fine a point on it, but you sucked. Rigs and implants are mostly used in PvE because they are insanely expensive for the benefit they give you. Also if you get podded then they are gone forever. Rigs die automatically if your ship goes, if you lose ships regularly (which all PvP pilots do) then rigs are just a very efficient way to give money to the market.

Gang bonuses are nice to have but again, people like AU and GF prove every night that the most terrifying thing on the server is a swarm of 1.5M SP characters flying T1 frigates with some clue of how to play together. I don't care what you're in, your entire gang is going to get violated totally by that lot.

As I said, they are fairly common.

Whether I suck or not, rigs now show up on killmails. They are used all the time IN PVP, and especially by the very wealthy who can afford to piss away money on killing you. Check it out if you don't believe me. And pirate implants are used all the time. People are screaming right now because they have been banned from the latest PVP tournament and the loudest are the "elite" pvpers. The stacking issue should be a major concern for anyone.

I have tremendous respect for AU and Goonswarm, but the power gamers in eve like outbreak. play it like I just said and 90% of the time they are bloody right.

[Slayerik]

Picking an example at random, compare this T2 Large Armour Repairer with this T1 equivalent.
The T1 repairs 720hp every 15 seconds as opposed to the T2 units 800hp but the T2 module takes more CPU and powergrid to fit. In Sinq Laison now, the T2 repairer goes for around 2.4 million Isk while the T1 version is about 200k. 90% of the effectiveness for less than 10% of the cost with a lower fitting overhead.

Thats a large "accommodation" Vestment reconstructor, the "Best named" t1 amour repairer that is only avalible from battleship NPC drops. Its still fairly common whatever. The actually player built non named t1 is here http://www.eve-online.com/itemdatabase/EN/shipequipment/hullarmor/armorrepairsystems/3538.asp which only repairs 600 units per cycle And if I used it I'd be repping 5-10% faster than you because of my skills. Thats if I don't have an implant or a rig in.

You see just focusing on t2 is not the Whole issue. There are implants that make your armour reps go faster, and rigs that make them give more as well. Its the whole multiplication effect of all that that makes things go screwy. if you have rigs and implants and the other guy doesn't then you will win. Yes there are theoretical tactics to work around that but basically 99.9% of the time all the effects of all those different things working together will make an older player unbeatable.

Oh and did I mention the gang links that people can give? the ones that make you faster and toughter just becasue billybob is sitting in your gang in a gang lead position. Add those multipliers in as well.

Its t2*implants*rigs*gang stuff*your basic skill effects.. Gear gear gear. All those effects combine. Thats one hell of a cliff to climb before a shot is even fired. And if the other guy had the income to consistently throw that stuff onto his ships and you don't then you are in for a hard time.

Anyway I take everyones point. Yes I admit I am a bit bitter, but I have seen so many people try their best, do everything right and simply die in battles that they simply had no chance at all. I found it heartbreaking.

I fly with a couple of guys that run full snakes. 99% of PVPers dont run repair amount shit, or other hardwires, or any combat implants...its a fuckin myth dude. Most PVPers expect to die and be podded and they don't bother. My friend does snakes and faction fitted machariels and have a claymore in their gang for more speed. That's a BS doing over 7,000km/s...

He got caught by an interceptor/rapier at a low-sec camp. http://tri.exanimo.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=94271 - That crow coulda had 3 mil SP and owned his ass for like 3 billion isk.

Basically, saying the old guard will forever be flying around with uber faction fitted stuff and hardwires and snakes is so far off it is crazy. These guys are the exception, not the rule...and I have been doing 0.0 warfare a long time.

[Slayerik]

There's no shortage of them in the market. There are about 100 for sale in the station I'm in (Auvergne) alone. And yes, if your skills were better than mine it would do more but that's true for all modules.

Not to point too fine a point on it, but you sucked. Rigs and implants are mostly used in PvE because they are insanely expensive for the benefit they give you. Also if you get podded then they are gone forever. Rigs die automatically if your ship goes, if you lose ships regularly (which all PvP pilots do) then rigs are just a very efficient way to give money to the market.

Gang bonuses are nice to have but again, people like AU and GF prove every night that the most terrifying thing on the server is a swarm of 1.5M SP characters flying T1 frigates with some clue of how to play together. I don't care what you're in, your entire gang is going to get violated totally by that lot.

As I said, they are fairly common.

Whether I suck or not, rigs now show up on killmails. They are used all the time IN PVP, and especially by the very wealthy who can afford to piss away money on killing you. Check it out if you don't believe me. And pirate implants are used all the time. People are screaming right now because they have been banned from the latest PVP tournament and the loudest are the "elite" pvpers. The stacking issue should be a major concern for anyone.

I have tremendous respect for AU and Goonswarm, but the power gamers in eve like outbreak. play it like I just said and 90% of the time they are bloody right.

You are complaining about people using rigs? This is PVP. You have those slots for a reason, use them.

[IainC]

And pirate implants are used all the time. People are screaming right now because they have been banned from the latest PVP tournament and the loudest are the "elite" pvpers. The stacking issue should be a major concern for anyone.

Tournament play is a world apart from the regular 0.0 fleet ops and gang roaming. Of course they're going to gear up and fit the expensive implants, T2 rigs and faction fittings for a sandbowl tournament. For flying around EC8-PR on a random week night? Not so much. If you're basing your assumptions about PvP imbalance on tournaments then no wonder they seem so far divorced from reality.

[Krakrok]

T2

Well, anyone can check out my killboard from the Privateers where I sustained a ~10:1 kill ratio with T1 only gear except T2 small/heavy drones and maybe a T2 medium armor rep once in awhile. I refuse to run T2 shit (cost) and I pretty much suck at PVP. I do have all the gang bonus skills though because they fit my play style.

[shiznitz]

I'd play WoW if I started with a level 70 character out of the box.

Buy an account with a 70 toon.

[Ratman_tf]

I'd play WoW if I started with a level 70 character out of the box.

Buy an account with a 70 toon.

Gay.

[Morat20]

T2

Well, anyone can check out my killboard from the Privateers where I sustained a ~10:1 kill ratio with T1 only gear except T2 small/heavy drones and maybe a T2 medium armor rep once in awhile. I refuse to run T2 shit (cost) and I pretty much suck at PVP. I do have all the gang bonus skills though because they fit my play style.

That the leadership stuff? I've started training that, just in case. Not really hurting me to get it to 2 or 3/5. Does it all work at once -- if you're running the gang, does everyone get the bonus from ALL your skills, or do you have to pick one?

[Slayerik]

All. You need to be in Squad Commander role.

Unless you train up wing command and shit (dont bother)

[Calantus]

I'd play WoW if I started with a level 70 character out of the box.

Buy an account with a 70 toon.

Bad shiznitz, bad. Don't buy accounts people, its a surefire way to have it taken back from you. I used to hear about it happening all the damn time.

[Thrawn]

I'd play WoW if I started with a level 70 character out of the box.

Buy an account with a 70 toon.

Bad shiznitz, bad. Don't buy accounts people, its a surefire way to have it taken back from you. I used to hear about it happening all the damn time.

 

[Morat20]

All. You need to be in Squad Commander role.

Unless you train up wing command and shit (dont bother)

I wasn't. I was just going to train them (all but the mining boost, although I should probably snag that) to maybe 3/5 and leave it. Figured if there was no one else, I'd be offering 4 to 6% boosts to armor, shield, lock range, velocity, and targetting speed and that'd be nice. And like I said -- I WILL have a carrier someday, and I might want to train more then. :)

[Krakrok]

That the leadership stuff? I've started training that, just in case. Not really hurting me to get it to 2 or 3/5. Does it all work at once -- if you're running the gang, does everyone get the bonus from ALL your skills, or do you have to pick one?

Yes, I have Armored Warfare 4, Information Warfare 4, Leadership 5, Mining Foreman 4, Siege Warfare 4, Skirmish Warfare 4, and Wing Command 3 (w/ Charisma 18). Which is basically +8% all options and lets me give the bonuses to 3 groups of 10 people if I'm Wing Commander in the fleet. Use to be able to buff the whole gang regardless of size with it.

I could train Capital Ships and Gallente Carrier but I refuse to pay 360 million and 450 million for the two skills.

Buy an account with a 70 toon.

WoW costs $9.99 or some such so that leaves $30 available for a level 70 character. You're selling me yours, right?

[Sparky]

There's no shortage of them in the market. There are about 100 for sale in the station I'm in (Auvergne) alone. And yes, if your skills were better than mine it would do more but that's true for all modules.

Not to point too fine a point on it, but you sucked. Rigs and implants are mostly used in PvE because they are insanely expensive for the benefit they give you. Also if you get podded then they are gone forever. Rigs die automatically if your ship goes, if you lose ships regularly (which all PvP pilots do) then rigs are just a very efficient way to give money to the market.

Gang bonuses are nice to have but again, people like AU and GF prove every night that the most terrifying thing on the server is a swarm of 1.5M SP characters flying T1 frigates with some clue of how to play together. I don't care what you're in, your entire gang is going to get violated totally by that lot.

As I said, they are fairly common.

Whether I suck or not, rigs now show up on killmails. They are used all the time IN PVP, and especially by the very wealthy who can afford to piss away money on killing you. Check it out if you don't believe me. And pirate implants are used all the time. People are screaming right now because they have been banned from the latest PVP tournament and the loudest are the "elite" pvpers. The stacking issue should be a major concern for anyone.

I have tremendous respect for AU and Goonswarm, but the power gamers in eve like outbreak. play it like I just said and 90% of the time they are bloody right.

You're way, way overstating how popular pirate implants are.  They're uncommon enough to evoke comment ("fuckin snakes") when you see them out in the wilds of Delve fighting the highest end alliance in the game.  People with billions to throw at an epeen tournament are complaining becuase they were risk free - no podding allowed on pain of disqualification - so it was worth the edge.

Certainly rigs are common in more expensive ships.  But again a few low SP buddies in their T1 scrapmobiles will pwn that T2/faction rigged out preener and cost him an arm and a leg if they know what they're doing.

[lamaros]

I see the conversation has gone off this a bit, but bringing it back to the original topic:

What is a cockblock for some people isn't for others, but that doesn't mean that those who find it a cockblock don't have valid reasons for dislikeing it- reasons that go beyond being a catass achievement whore.

I don't think WoW is that great, but I have played it in the past on two occasions for a few months both times. In both these instances I was able to do everything I wanted to do in that time and could work towards it from the first time I played the game to the day I unsubed.

When I tried EvE I found that the skill system didn't give me that control over the game that I wanted, to play at my own pace, in spurts or with large gaps and feel like I could slow down or speed up what I was doing at the time. It wasn't about racing to the finish, it was just about never feeling like I was waiting around for something that couldn't be achieved faster by me actually going out and playing the game. The idea that I could play every day for a month or only log in and learn skills for a month and would not, in an important aspect of the game, have advanced was something I didn't like. Not because I wanted to be better than others, or level up super quick, but just because I wanted to feel like every moment I played the game I was getting something out of it that I wouldn't be getting if I wasn't playing. (I quit WoW the first time when I hit 60 and had done all the instances, I quit the second time when I was 70 and was in TK and being completely over the 'clockblock' that was other people's ineptness.)

Whenever I'm not able to do what I want to do in a game, and the limitiation is beyond my control to change, I get bored and don't want to play. Hardly unreasonable to want to have fun. Eve's skill system makes me feel this. This is a personal criticism of the game based on how I like to play. It's not to say that the skill system is the worst thing ever, just that it doesn't do it for me. I wouldn't like to play a single player game that limited me to only completeing 10% of the game in a single week either.