TV Output 720p, 1080i, 1080p

[Morfiend]

Ok, so I wanted to make this thread after something I came across last night.

As some of you guys know I just got a PS3 for my birthday. I had always planned on getting a PS3, but the game line up never justified it before. 2 years ago I bought my TV a Sony 60inch HDTV. This one (except mine is the 60 inch). So, when I bought it, one of the main things I wanted was 1080p for PS3 and Xbox 360 is ever supported.
The salesman assured me that this TV could display at 1080p. And that it would be amazing with the PS3 (this was like 2 months before PS3 release I think).

I bought the TV and I love it. The picture is amazing, but up until I got my PS3, I didnt have anything that I could connect with HDMI to get a 1080p signal. So I am really excited to see my PS3 in all its glory. Turns out my TV wont accept a 1080p signal.

WHAT THE FUCK.

SXRD displays those 2 million detail points per SXRD panel accurately since the 3 SXRD panels actually contain enough pixels to fully display a 1080 line picture without interlacing it.

So, the salesman didnt lie. My TV can display 1080p, its just that none of the ports can accept a 1080p signal. Grrrrrr. What is this fucking shit. How do they expect me to play 1080p on my TV then? Magic? I am really pissed right now. One of the main reasons I bought the TV was to be able to display 1080p.

So, what do I do now? Should I play my PS3 in 720p or 1080i? Should I try and get it warranted? I have an extended warranty at Best Buy. Will I even notice a difference? I am really disappointed.

One of the reasons I got the PS3 was so I can watch Blu-Ray, but now I cant even get the best picture.

[Trippy]

It's (probably) not your TV, it's the game. Most PS3 games do not output 1080P natively. Here's a list that do (dunno how complete it is):

http://www.makeyougohmm.com/ps3-1080p-games/

[MrHat]

Should I try and get it warranted? I have an extended warranty at Best Buy. Will I even notice a difference? I am really disappointed.

How does one go about getting it warrantied?

[Ookii]

Sorry I'm bored.

According to the manual for your tv:

HDMI IN 6/7:
HDMI:      Video: 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p

Link to manual

They have a picture in the quick start guide, it's the HDMI ports labeled 6 and 7 respectively with a "HDMI IN" above them and a standard rca white and red audio in below them, all the components being arranged vertically.

Quick Start guide located here

[MrHat]

Wrong manual.

http://129.33.22.12/release/KDSR50-60XBR1.pdf

HDMI IN 2 Total: Video 1080i, 720p, 480p, 480i

[Morfiend]

It's (probably) not your TV, it's the game. Most PS3 games do not output 1080P natively. Here's a list that do (dunno how complete it is):

http://www.makeyougohmm.com/ps3-1080p-games/

It was during the setup for the PS3 that if I check the 1080p box in Display Settings, the TV goes blank.

And Hat is right, thats the wrong manual. 

[Morfiend]

I just found this on the Sony site.

The television display has a native resolution of 1080p. This means that any supported signal (480i, 480p, 720p or 1080i) that is input to the TV will be up-converted from its original resolution and displayed in 1080p.
None of the input jacks on the television have the capability of receiving a 1080p signal; trying to input a 1080p signal into the TV will result in a blank or distorted picture on the screen. If you are connecting a video device that is outputting a 1080p signal, the video device will need to be reconfigured to output at a different resolution, such as 480i, 480p, 720p or 1080i.
For many electronics used as an output device, such as a Blu-Ray® (BD) player or HD cable box, the conversion of the signal occurs automatically. However, for the PlayStation®3 console, there is a need to manually change the output setting on your device from 1080p to 1080i. While this manual change may appear to be changing the display resolution on your television, it is actually changing the output signal resolution of your device only and not the television display resolution, which is fixed at 1080p.

[Ookii]

Sorry, I was opening up too many PDFs at one time and my work computer got too slow, I guess I kept the wrong one open. 

[Trippy]

Wrong manual.

http://129.33.22.12/release/KDSR50-60XBR1.pdf

HDMI IN 2 Total: Video 1080i, 720p, 480p, 480i

Wow that's broken if those specs are right. They marketed that TV as a 1080P set.

[Trippy]

I just found this on the Sony site.

Return it.

[Morfiend]

I just found this on the Sony site.

Return it.

Under what pretense would you say? Also, I have had it for over 2 years now.

[MrHat]

I just found this on the Sony site.

Return it.

Under what pretense would you say? Also, I have had it for over 2 years now.

Owning the same TV, please tell me? I have the BB warranty as well...

[Trippy]

Don't we have some people on here like schild that used to work at Best Buy?

I'd have to read the fine print on the warranty to know what options are available. The problem is you want them to replace it with like an XBR2 or something that really supports 1080P rather than swap it for the same XBR1. I'm assuming simply getting your money back is not an option being that it's so old.

[Morfiend]

I dont think they could swap it for another XBR1, they changed to the XBR2 after about 6 months or so, and that one does take 1080p signal.

[schild]

Did you get the extended warranty? On TVs, those are 3 or 4 years. By all means, go swap it.

On the brightside, there's no non-PSN 1080p games anyway. So uhhhh there's that.

[Arrrgh]

This your HDTV?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=754256

[Morfiend]

This your HDTV?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=754256

Yeah. I was reading that thread earlier.

[Morfiend]

Did you get the extended warranty? On TVs, those are 3 or 4 years. By all means, go swap it.

On the brightside, there's no non-PSN 1080p games anyway. So uhhhh there's that.

Yes, I have the Extended Warranty. What do I do, go in and say "I want a new TV"?

And I was planning on watching Blu-Ray in 1080p also.

[schild]

Did you get the extended warranty? On TVs, those are 3 or 4 years. By all means, go swap it.

On the brightside, there's no non-PSN 1080p games anyway. So uhhhh there's that.

Yes, I have the Extended Warranty. What do I do, go in and say "I want a new TV"?

And I was planning on watching Blu-Ray in 1080p also.

Say that it was marketed as a 1080p TV, it does not display 1080p, it freaks out. Ask them what they would replace it with.

Go all the way up to the store manager If that doesn't work, write a story, I'll frontpage it and we'll let the bitchfest continue. Or you could send it into kotaku, they'll print anything (I use this line on everyone, I don't know if it worked yet).

[Bunk]

I agree with Schild here. I would go ballistic if I bought a Tv advertised as 1080p and then later found out that it won't accept a 1080p signal.

[Moaner]

I agree with Schild here. I would go ballistic if I bought a Tv advertised as 1080p and then later found out that it won't accept a 1080p signal.

I agree.  This sounds like an infuriating situation Morfiend and I'd let that come through as you speak with the manager.  From my perspective it looks like you were legitimately ripped off.  Even if I had not bought the extended warranty I'd take it back and raise hell.

[Jeff Kelly]

This was very likely a mistake (or intentionally misleading) by the salesman because the xbr1 doesn't do 1080p.

It was one of the first televisions that did 1080i and it was the only television at that time whose image processor could handle 1080i signals without downscaling to 720p and then upscaling again to 1080i. (which quite a few TVs did at the time because image processors that could natively do 1080i were still scarece and expensive).

[Sky]

It's simple. Their salesperson sold you that set on the premise it would give you 1080p. It won't accept a 1080p source. Tell them you want a trade for the new model or a refund so you can go buy it at a competitor. That's fucking garbage.

[Mrbloodworth]

Some day, some one will explain to me why there are so many configurations for TV Resolutions.

[stray]

Well, the size of a TV is one factor. 1080p isn't such a big benefit on things under 40".

[schild]

Well, the size of a TV is one factor. 1080p isn't such a big benefit on things under 40".

If you saw my semi-recent 24" Gateway, you'd disagree.

[stray]

I have a 24" that can do 1080p actually.

[MrHat]

I have the same TV as Morf.

My problem is I was an employee when I bought it.  What's my excuse? :-D

[SnakeCharmer]

It's simple. Their salesperson sold you that set on the premise it would give you 1080p. It won't accept a 1080p source. Tell them you want a trade for the new model or a refund so you can go buy it at a competitor. That's fucking garbage.

He's gotta prove the salesperson sold it on that premise.

The literature states that it will display 1080p, so he may very well fucked.

I agree it's garbage though. 

If you saw my semi-recent 24" Gateway, you'd disagree.

Which model?

[HaemishM]

I just found this on the Sony site.

The television display has a native resolution of 1080p. This means that any supported signal (480i, 480p, 720p or 1080i) that is input to the TV will be up-converted from its original resolution and displayed in 1080p.
None of the input jacks on the television have the capability of receiving a 1080p signal; trying to input a 1080p signal into the TV will result in a blank or distorted picture on the screen. If you are connecting a video device that is outputting a 1080p signal, the video device will need to be reconfigured to output at a different resolution, such as 480i, 480p, 720p or 1080i.
For many electronics used as an output device, such as a Blu-Ray® (BD) player or HD cable box, the conversion of the signal occurs automatically. However, for the PlayStation®3 console, there is a need to manually change the output setting on your device from 1080p to 1080i. While this manual change may appear to be changing the display resolution on your television, it is actually changing the output signal resolution of your device only and not the television display resolution, which is fixed at 1080p.

Hate to quote the whole thing again, but that is quite possibly the most retarded backdoor fuck you from a corporationg I think I've ever seen.

EDIT: To unfuck the quotes.

[sidereal]

Yes, I have the Extended Warranty. What do I do, go in and say "I want a new TV"?

And I was planning on watching Blu-Ray in 1080p also.

Don't sound too knowledgeable.  If you go in and it's obvious you know the difference between input and output and 1080i and 1080p they'll cut you less slack.  If you go in and say 'You told me this was a 1080p TV.  Now it says the 1080p won't work with my Playstation.  You lied!' they'll either just do it or start giving you technical details.  Pretend the technical details confuse you and they sound like fucking lawyers and reiterate that they lied.  Keep it simple and they won't have any outs.

[schild]

It's simple. Their salesperson sold you that set on the premise it would give you 1080p. It won't accept a 1080p source. Tell them you want a trade for the new model or a refund so you can go buy it at a competitor. That's fucking garbage.

He's gotta prove the salesperson sold it on that premise.

The literature states that it will display 1080p, so he may very well fucked.

I agree it's garbage though. 

If you saw my semi-recent 24" Gateway, you'd disagree.

Which model?

FHD2400 I believe.

[Jeff Kelly]

[Hate to quote the whole thing again, but that is quite possibly the most retarded backdoor fuck you from a corporationg I think I've ever seen.

OK so a little technical background.

LC displays are always progressive displays (that's what the p stands for) so every signal that is input as an interlaced signal (that is what the i stands for) must always be converted to a progressive signal before it can be displayed on screen. Progressive means that for every frame in a video you always have all the lines, interlaced means that you only have half of the lines in a frame with frame 1 carrying all the even lines, frame 2 carrying all the odd lines and so on.

Interlaced signals come from analog television where they were used to conserve bandwidth (you only have to transmit half of a picture per frame).

If the input is a progressive signal the display has to do nothing at all except for up-scaling the picture to the native resolution (an 480p signal will be up-scaled to 720 or 1080) an interlaced signal needs to be deinterlaced before it can be displayed by a progressive display.

De-interlacing a signal usually causes a lot of trouble. Since one frame carries all of the even lines and the next carries all of the odd lines there is a slight time delay between both frames and they do not display exactly the same picture. In Europe interlaced signals are transmitted at 50 half-frames per second so two frames are 1/50th of a second apart. When you deinterlace the signal you try to combine two half frames that haven't been encoded at exactly the same time which usually leads to artifacts. Modern picture processors do usually a very good job at deinterlacing but it still degrades the picture.

So if you watch standard definition television the picture would have to be deinterlaced on your fancy HDTV. If you watch DVDs you don't usually need to deinterlace the picture because nearly all DVDs store their material as progressive.

The HDTV standard however never mentions anything about a 1080p signal it just distinguishes between 720p and 1080i. The big resolution was defined as interlaced because it reduced the bandwidth requirements for the transmission of the signal. An 1080i signal and a 720p signal use roughly the same bandwidth.

So every TV that is capable of displaying the 1920x1080 resolution has to deinterlace the signal before it can be displayed. Most Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players can output material in 1080p (1080p24 to be exact). Movies are usually shot with 24 frames per second and the material on the Blu-Ray disc or the HD-DVD is usually encoded as progressive anyway. If the TV is not capable of accepting 1080p the Hi-Def-Player would first need to interlace the signal (convert the signal from 1080p to 1080i) then it would be transmitted to the TV via the HDMI interface where it would need to be deinterlaced (converted from 1080i to 1080p)

Both of these steps are lossy because the frame rates do not match exactly (24 complete frames vs. 50 or 60 half frames) this can lead to degrading picture quality and the video will judder because the frame rates do not match exactly. Both of these steps wouldn't be necessary however because both the player and the display are capable of displaying progressive signals, it is just not part of the standard (it will be introduced however).

The problem at that point is the digital display interface HDMI. HDMI was standardized to transmit signals that are part of the HDTV standard, transmission of progressive 1080 was added in a later revision of the standard (1.3) so all displays that use an older HDMI interface specification (prior 1.3) can only accept 1080i because the bandwidth of the HDMI interface cannot handle 1080p.

The XBR1 uses HDMI version 1.2 so it is not capable of accepting 1080p although technically he would be able to display it. So the description you posted is technically correct.

If you want progressive output at the highest possible picture quality you'd need the following things.

1. A player that is capable of outputting 1080p24 signals (many players currently on the market cannot do this)
2. A display that will accept 1080p24 signals and that can display them (It will need to have HDMI 1.3 or better). This also means that the digital image processor has to be able to handle 1080p signal inputs. Many cheap HDTV displays only use image processors that accept 1080i or even worse 720p although they are 1080 displays. This is done because processors for smaller resolutions are usually much cheaper.

So in the worst case you could buy a display that needs to scale down any incoming signal to 720p before processing it and which will upscale it again to 1080 before displaying it on screen. This display will be advertised as 1080i capable (FullHD) however.

As you can see the whole thing is rather complicated but the description is no marketing scam it just describes what a high end TV from 2 years ago was capable of.

That is why a lot of people on these AVS forums who think they know something about technology but usually don't, say that the display can do 1080p.

[Trippy]

The HDTV standard however never mentions anything about a 1080p signal it just distinguishes between 720p and 1080i.

No 1080p is a perfectly valid HDTV format, at least here in the US:

http://www.atsc.org/standards/a_53-Part-4-2007.pdf

This is from part of the US digital TV spec (the full spec is made up of multiple separate documents). Go down to table 6.2.

[schild]

If you don't want to click the spec pdf, there's a better table a bit down:

Code:

Video Format
Applicable Standard
480 Interlaced 4:3
SMPTE 125M [4]
480 Interlaced 16:9
SMPTE 267M [6]
480 Progressive
SMPTE 293M [8]
720 Progressive
SMPTE 296M [9]
1080 Interlaced
SMPTE 274M [7]
1080 Progressive
SMPTE 274M [7]

Now, I didn't read enough to find out why they list 480i and 480p as neither is hi-def. But whatever, 1080p is right there at the bottom.