PvP

[stu]

     


That would have an effect on me too.

I get big kicks out of answering Local Defense calls, when possible (I'm still only a 39). Gathering intel on a corpse camper and then plunging in when the player is distracted by a resurrection always brightens my day.

[Xanthippe]

I can understand that - death in Runescape has penalties.  But death in WoW doesn't, other than a time penalty.  No looting, no xp loss, no durability loss even.

For me, that's what alts are for (laundry too!) - if I'm being camped, and I can't call on friends to help out for whatever reason, I play an alt or go fold my laundry.

One of the things I really enjoy about The Venture Co. server is that so many people are willing to help out.  On my other pvp server, if someone says anything about getting ganked, they're greeted with "yeah, so? This is a pvp server noob" or "the pve servers are that way."

Contested zones are fun, with support.  Getting camped sucks, but revenge is sweet if your friends can help out.

Last night, there was a 70 watching over all the noobs in Hillsbrad levelling up.  He owned the 70 alliance who came to gank.  It was
 quite fun!

[Jayce]

To expound on my previous post, I have the same response to it as Xanthippe, not Nebu.

I can't see playing on a PvE server.  I don't know if it'd be boring (last time I tried a PvE sort of game was years ago) but I still like the danger, and I still like that if an Alliance gives you a break, he or she just genuinely did you a favor - not because the game restricts it.

[Nebu]

I agree to a degree as well, which is why I usually play on PvP servers.  My real point was that I can't understand why my not being an asshole suddenly makes me a pussy.  I don't gank people.  I don't hit people fighting mobs.  I don't hit people below me in level.  Somehow this makes me less of a person because I don't stoop to tit for tat or revenge or whatever.  The culture of the server is more what bugs me than the mechanics of it. 

[murdoc]

Then I get the chance and I just don't have the heart.  I'm a natural born sheep I guess.

That's exactly it for me.  I used to gank people without mercy in UO and DAoC until I saw something.  I watched my daughter playing Runescape and someone killed her in a bad spot.  She cried.  I mean, she really took it personally and cried.  My fun in a game just isn't worth having that kind of effect on someone else.  I think that my days on pvp servers are about done.  I just don't have the heart to ruin the fun of others anymore. 

I just remember that's it's a PvP server and if they wanted to level in peace, they should join one of the MANY PvE servers. I also don't get upset about getting ganked for the same reason. A big part of the fun for me isn't necessarily ganking someone, it's getting away from that level 70 that has already killed me, or is patrolling the area looking for someone to kill. I had a lot of fun in STV avoiding the roaming level 70s.

edit: This isn't an attack on Nebu either, I can totally understand not wanting to be a part of a pvp server. There's a LOT of dickheads on the server, both sides. You can tell when school gets out in the afternoon too... All of sudden there's lvl 70s all over n00b zones, but I just can't imagine going back to a PvE server now.

[Signe]

I play on both kinds of servers.  For some reason, PvE servers inspire me to grind crafting levels more.  With my hour or so a week, however, I don't level often.   

[AcidCat]

I usually prefer PvE servers. I would rather not allow random people to waste my time as they see fit.

[Merusk]

I usually prefer PvE servers. I would rather not allow random people to waste my time as they see fit.

Ditto, which is why I only alt on the PvP server.  If I get ganked trying to do what I want, looks like it's a PvE server day.  As a result, I don't expect I'll hit 70 prior to the next x-pack.

[Nebu]

I usually prefer PvE servers. I would rather not allow random people to waste my time as they see fit.

That's the part I'm trying to come to grips with.  I love the tension of a pvp server, but having entire evenings wasted by 12 year olds just gets on my nerves after a while. 

[Kail]

On the plus side, our server is freakishly active, so I end up running a lot of instances.  This has the bonus of dropping me into an instance where I can't be ganked, as well as giving me t3h ph4t l3wtz to dispense righteous justice when I AM ganked.  So, whenever I'm feeling pissed off at being ganked, I just head back to Orgrimmar and hang out in LFG for a while, and spend the night getting obscenely powerful items and money.

[Threash]

I really wish Blizzard would put far less into junk like Sunwell, that many players won't ever see, and put in more different kinds of battlegrounds, or even just more pve content available to people of limited time.  Battlegrounds are perfect for people who want to play an hour or two at a time.

If they add more bgs the queues get longer so it stops being perfect for people who want to play an hour or two at a time.  They are adding a new one for the expansion though.

[Simond]

...plus the "will spend 95+ percent of its time totally unused" world-pvp zone. Hell, the Sunwell instances will probably get more use between now and WotLK than that zone will ever.

[Dren]

I got pulled out of the first BG I started to do for the night last night to help my guild out and heal Karazhan.  I ended up sitting around for nearly an hour before we got started.  The whole time I kept thinking, "I could be gaining honor and marks right now..."

I took my alt healing priest and took down Attumen and Moroes with no deaths.  I also got no lewtz!  Hey, I got a few badges though!

The more I think about it and consider the very limited time I have each night, BG's just make a lot of sense.  I can tell I'm going to have a hard time choosing between the two each night.  I do have to choose, because I don't have enough time to do both in one night.

[MrHat]

I got pulled out of the first BG I started to do for the night last night to help my guild out and heal Karazhan.  I ended up sitting around for nearly an hour before we got started.  The whole time I kept thinking, "I could be gaining honor and marks right now..."

I took my alt healing priest and took down Attumen and Moroes with no deaths.  I also got no lewtz!  Hey, I got a few badges though!

The more I think about it and consider the very limited time I have each night, BG's just make a lot of sense.  I can tell I'm going to have a hard time choosing between the two each night.  I do have to choose, because I don't have enough time to do both in one night.

IMO, start a new account, txf off the toons that would be used to raid.  Then sell it.

[Polysorbate80]

I'm more than happy to engage in random world PvP, but I never attack first unless I know the target is a jackass.  I just can't do it.

I just don't understand the thrill of ganking someone thirty levels lower than me, I guess.  Or why the Horde needs to destroy Southshore 23 hours out of the day.  Or why stealth classes exist at all for PvP :P

[Baldrake]

Yeah, similar. I used to play on a pvp server, and eventually got fed up that there was so much time I simply wasn't able to play due to people who had nothing better to do than kill everything that walks in lowbie zones. Playing in that environment where there is simply nothing you can do in response is just masochism.

Because of this, I have an enormous hatred of max level rogues, and would never hesitate to attack one when he was fighting a mob.

For all that, I do find the pve server a bit tame. I miss open pvp in the SB or even UO style.

[Dren]

While I'm on a normal server, we do have world pvp days sometimes.  The last one was pretty fun.  It was basically huge numbers of people flagging pvp and attacking each other either at the world PvP points or just attacking each others NPC town for giggles.

For the most part, most people participated that were in the area.  We had most of our guild together in Vent and raided so it was a great excercise in planning, tactics, and strategy.

I'm looking forward to the next one.

[Xanthippe]

I really wish Blizzard would put far less into junk like Sunwell, that many players won't ever see, and put in more different kinds of battlegrounds, or even just more pve content available to people of limited time.  Battlegrounds are perfect for people who want to play an hour or two at a time.

If they add more bgs the queues get longer so it stops being perfect for people who want to play an hour or two at a time.  They are adding a new one for the expansion though.

This is good point, however, I would love to see a classic AV option.  If AV was changed so that every AV was like version 1.0, a lot of people would complain - however, there are some people who want to play version 1.0 (like me!) and who don't mind playing a 2 hour (and what could be a 4 or 8 hour game).

Having a classic AV option would not increase the queue time - in fact, I bet the queue time on it would be shorter than it is for the current version 3 of AV, since alliance in some battlegroups refuse to queue for it at all.

[Xanthippe]

...plus the "will spend 95+ percent of its time totally unused" world-pvp zone. Hell, the Sunwell instances will probably get more use between now and WotLK than that zone will ever.

This is surprisingly - to me anyway - different across servers.

My old server had little world pvp, but The Venture Co. has stuff happening every evening.  It's pretty cool (and I don't mean just level 70s ganking lowers).

[Merusk]

Yeah, VC has been interesting.  I think part of that is it's a little bit smaller server and is newer, so all of the 'hardcorez, yo' are on other, older servers. Plus the A:H ratio is damn near 1:1 if you can believe wowcensus and that HAS to help things out.

[Morat20]

This is good point, however, I would love to see a classic AV option.  If AV was changed so that every AV was like version 1.0, a lot of people would complain - however, there are some people who want to play version 1.0 (like me!) and who don't mind playing a 2 hour (and what could be a 4 or 8 hour game).

Having a classic AV option would not increase the queue time - in fact, I bet the queue time on it would be shorter than it is for the current version 3 of AV, since alliance in some battlegroups refuse to queue for it at all.

Classic AV would work fine IF they came up with a graceful way to leave -- grant you honor (bonus and otherwise) and tokens for your time spent. I'd say bonus armor for the things like upgrades (and set it so that you could continue to upgrade AFTER you capped out, just for bonus honor), ram charges, etc. Tokens maybe for time spent?

[Fordel]

Classic AV is coming back in spirit, (In theory), with the PvP zone in WoTLK.

[Jayce]

I think I've said before on this board - wouldn't it be cool if there were the hour or days-long AVs of old, which you could join or leave at will.  You'd get honor and tokens for time spent, objectives capped or defended, kills, heals, etc.  Then when (maybe days later) the battle was won or lost, you get another cut of the overall honor based on how long you were and how much you contributed, especially if your side won.

[Nebu]

DAoC does a good job with this mechanic and Blizzard could learn a thing or two from them.  If you're near when an objective is taken, you get rps.  Help with a kill, rps.  Heal a wounded target?  rps.  Sure, it's not perfect but with some blizzard polish it could be much better for the BG's and eliminate the afk crowd.

[MrHat]

I think I've said before on this board - wouldn't it be cool if there were the hour or days-long AVs of old, which you could join or leave at will.  You'd get honor and tokens for time spent, objectives capped or defended, kills, heals, etc.  Then when (maybe days later) the battle was won or lost, you get another cut of the overall honor based on how long you were and how much you contributed, especially if your side won.

Someone would abuse it.

9 million people, there will be 10 that break the system, and 1 that posts how on a forum.

[SurfD]

I think I've said before on this board - wouldn't it be cool if there were the hour or days-long AVs of old, which you could join or leave at will.  You'd get honor and tokens for time spent, objectives capped or defended, kills, heals, etc.  Then when (maybe days later) the battle was won or lost, you get another cut of the overall honor based on how long you were and how much you contributed, especially if your side won.

Someone would abuse it.

9 million people, there will be 10 that break the system, and 1 that posts how on a forum.

Actually, that COULD be an interesting concept.

Make a "Perpetual War" battleground, that has NO Win or Lose goal, and reward players for their Actual Performance during their time spent in the battle.  I envision this something like those swarm battle scenes during the credits in WC3, where you just have an endless tide of Orcs spawning on one end of the map, and Humans on the other, and they meet in the middle, endlessly killing each other.

- 40 people per side, Map about the size of AV.
- Each side has continuous waves of fairly weak NPC's that spawn deep in their side, and move towards the other side untill they encounter a Player or another NPC to fight.

- Put in Contested Areas, with control mechanics similar to the cap points in EotS.
- Have say 6 alliance ones, and 6 horde ones (for arguements sake, imagine them where the towers / bunkers / graveyards are in AV), which give benefits in the form of slight but persistant damage buffs, health / mana regen buffs and the like for the side that takes them from the enemy (think galvagers damage buff).
- You dont get buffs for controlling your OWN points, only for controlling the Enemy ones.
- Make the "capping area" for these areas fairly large
- HOWEVER, each enemy point your side controls has the corresponding side effect of increasing the rate of (or level strength of) enemy reinforcement spawns (NPC's).

- Put in a couple of resource gathering quests (like the AV mines / Blood Turn-ins) which allow your side to summon a "hero" style critter to rally around and assist with pushes, think AV Icelord, but slightly weaker (however make it slightly easier for the disadvantaged team to summon faster)

- You gain normal honor for PvP kills, subject to diminishing returns etc.
- You gain "Bonus" Honor based on things like how long you can hold contested areas (the more areas you hold nets you cumulatively more honor per tick, but you face a rising tide of Enemy Reinforcements the more you hold), how long you keep your "hero" creeps alive, and things like that.
- The KEY to the Battleground would be you are only allowed in for a FIXED MAXIMUM length of time, say 30 minutes or an hour, each day (say you get auto kicked due to "Battle Fatigue" after time is up, to prevent people from staying in there forever), and the bonus honor awarded is directly based off your overall performance (damage / healing done, quests run, whatever) over your timed stay and is ONLY awarded when you LEAVE the BG.
- It could give a running total of "bonus honor earned" during ticks or stuff, so people know they ARE earning it, but no fucking cave camper is going to get ANYTHING, because his 0 damage, 0 healing done, 0 quests run performance record will dictate a 0 Bonus honor grant.

So in your hour, you can make x amount of honor from just killing stuff, but if your side manages a good push, and controls 4 of the 6 enemy contested points for the duration of the fight, and keeps it's "hero" alive for 20 minutes, you get LOADS more bonus honor when you leave.

Don't even have it award tokens, or maybe have it award a generic token redeemable for x amount of tokens of your choice for ANY battleground for simply having been "through the grinder" since you can only do it once a day.

-----------------------------------

The overall idea being you are actually in a BIGASS epic battle, with multitudes of units killing eachother, and capping and holding all 6 enemy points would be a monumental fight because you would be facing literally overwelming odds to hold them for more then a few minute.  It would be like actually being in one of those glorious meles from crazy WC3 Battles.

[MrHat]

TL;DR

DotA + AV + Daily Quest Timer Limit thing.

[Kail]

Make a "Perpetual War" battleground, that has NO Win or Lose goal, and reward players for their Actual Performance during their time spent in the battle.  I envision this something like those swarm battle scenes during the credits in WC3, where you just have an endless tide of Orcs spawning on one end of the map, and Humans on the other, and they meet in the middle, endlessly killing each other.

This is basically what I'm hoping the foretold siege zone is going to look like.  24/7 carnage, hopefully the most efficient way to grind honor (get those AFKers out of AV and into a non-instanced zone where they can't fuck everything up), with just a bunch of crazy crap going on all over the place, people earning tokens Halaa-style for doing whatever needs doing, and then redoing it in five minutes when it needs doing again.

What I'm afraid of is it turning out to be Eastern Plaguelands II: Revenge of the non-battle.

[Fordel]

The largest issue with the EPL/Hellfire/Marsh towers, is there is almost no benefit to actually holding the objectives. There is a quest in EPL to capture the towers. Which on my server, the alliance can't actually do, since they haven't lost the towers outside of 5 min windows when the horde take them for their version of the quest, since they've been up.

In Hellfire, we trade the towers, since capturing them is how you get the bonus marks, not holding them. We form up a group/raid, go to the first tower while the horde goes to the last one. They fly across to ours and we move to the middle. Then we go to the far one while they take the middle. A endless loop of tower trading until you complete the quest enough to get enough marks for your item.

The Marsh towers, people forget those even exist 50% of the time and they remain unclaimed.


Halaa actually gets some action on my server, fairly regularly. Despite the fact the rewards/cost are completely out of sync with the rest of the game, the actual game play is fun enough to cause people to scrounge it up every so often. It still suffers from the same issue though. There is little benefit to actually defending it. All the fun game play is on the offensive side. Pretty much no incentive to hold onto the place.



When you compare it to something like a DaoC keep assault. Their is incentive for both the offense and the defense to show up and preform. More importantly, it's actually fun for 90% of both sides. Everyone has a role, or a mechanic to use. The Range DPS play ping-pong on the walls, the melee DPS works to breach the doors/wall, or scale them to pressure the enemy range. Healers get a rare opportunity to heal from 'safe' spots instead of being directly trained down. But everyone has a job, and most everyone has a 'toy' to use if they don't have a job. Be it some siege equipment, or a special mechanic (/recall to keep lords for the non-stealth melee for example). 

Even playing a buffbot was kinda humorously fun when you sat at the keep lord and rezzed all the /recalled melee.



But say in Halaa, defending mostly constitutes going to the active flight node, burning it, then killing the landing enemy one at a time after their run. Fish in a barrel and all that. The most intriguing battle I've had at Halaa, was the one we created artificially over a bridge. Some folks on the horde side and our side were in the same vent channel, and worked out some rough 'rules' and we had two small zergs fighting over a single bridge for nearly an hour. Once one side actually fought their way across, they would pull back, everyone would rez and we would do it again.



What I am hoping for the new zone, is the more 'in depth' style of assault DaoC had, less of the 'Sit on this flag' AV and etc have. As much as I could bitch about keep doors at times in DaoC, I really do miss them in WoW. So much of the pvp in WoW is about riding past or going around to reach that all important flag node. It isn't generating the kind of conflict that gets people fighting over and over. If anything, it's generating non-conflict.


Seems all ass backwards.


fake edit- I wrote half of this post an hour before the other half, I wonder how much I contradict myself 

[Simond]

Yeah, VC has been interesting.  I think part of that is it's a little bit smaller server and is newer, so all of the 'hardcorez, yo' are on other, older servers. Plus the A:H ratio is damn near 1:1 if you can believe wowcensus and that HAS to help things out.

See, that's the problem. Almost all of the old (launch & soon after - ) are strongly skewed towards Alliance, meaning that world-PvP is broken. The 'middle-aged' servers (post-launch, pre-TBC) are more-or-less balanced ratio wise (so world-PvP mostly works), and almost all of the TBC-launch servers are strongly Horde-biased...so world-pvp is broken.

[Ironwood]

They did this ;  it was called Tarren Mill.


It was shite.

[Litigator]

...plus the "will spend 95+ percent of its time totally unused" world-pvp zone. Hell, the Sunwell instances will probably get more use between now and WotLK than that zone will ever.

I assume it will be full of level 80 daily quests. I bet it will be pretty busy.

[Litigator]

I've been recently leveling another character on my PvP server. I don't do the alt thing very much, but I wanted to see the Dranei lowbie zones and the new Dustswallow tipped me over the edge. He's currently level 45.

I have the good fortune of having a really nasty level 70 warlock, so when somebody messes with my mage, I can wreck them. I've seen people who are capable of harming me in the BGs and arenas of course, and also in Skettis and on Netherwing ledge, but nobody who has tangled with my alt in the old world has been much more than roadkill for the warlock.

There seems to be a contingent of really crappy players who hang out in high-traffic lowbie zones and 2-shot people to feel big. Stranglethorn Vale and Tanaris are big offenders, especially since people on the way to CoT will pop lowbies in Tanaris without thinking twice.

I would never roll on a non pvp server though. All the ganking in the world pisses me off less than seeing an opposing character picking an herb node I want, and not being able to knock them off of it. Level 70 ganking is way better than lowbie ganking though. with an epic flying mount, you can corpse camp everyone of the opposing faction in a zone. I really like flying around SMV, where there are a lot of long corpse runs, and killing everyone while picking all the valuable terocone and nightmare vines that spawn there.

[Nebu]

I would never roll on a non pvp server though. All the ganking in the world pisses me off less than seeing an opposing character picking an herb node I want, and not being able to knock them off of it.

Now I know that I don't belong on a pvp server.  Does this really irritate you?  I mean... really? 

[SurfD]

I would never roll on a non pvp server though. All the ganking in the world pisses me off less than seeing an opposing character picking an herb node I want, and not being able to knock them off of it.

Now I know that I don't belong on a pvp server.  Does this really irritate you?  I mean... really? 

I would chew my tongue out in a frothing nerd rage if I just spent the last 2 or 3 minutes clearing the mobs off of an ore node i wanted only to have some opposite faction fucker merrily run up and steal it right out from under me.  Believe me, i have literally suicided my crappy geared shaman miner against fully decked out season 2/3 alliance characters who come in to try to take my node because i would rather attempt to kill them and die then just let them have it.