Could a entirely class-less, "skill"-less system w

[WonderBrick]

Could an entirely class-less, "skill"-less system work?  It would for me.

The "real life", true skill approach:

Imagine a game that had no classes, not unlike UO or Darkfall.  But go further, by removing even the Skills that UO and Darkfall present players with.  

Now imagine a game with Industries, like Schools of Magery, a Tech Industry, a Textile or  Parts Manufacturer, a Military/Army, etc.  Approach player development just like the real world, or like America's Army(the free FPS).  Once you are able to accomplish that skill ingame, you receive a certificate, showing that accomplishment.  Anyone can handle a sniper rifle, but are they any good with it?  Run a prospective sniper through that shooting range, just like America's Army.

The game would be all about the player's skill, not character skill.  Want to drive a tank?  Show everyone that you can drive a car, then Jeep, then APC or whatever.  Want to learn that high level spell?  First, prove to the game and the players around you that you show a certain degree of knowledge, be it real-word, or somewhat fictional.  Want the tools to access a mainframe?  First, show some basic computer knowledge, then later, OS and programing knowledge.

Proving real skill and knowledge would advance you and prove:  1) to the game that you are able to tackle advance areas, 2) to other players, that you are actually good with that sniper rifle, so they want you to join up with them.  

The game would have different Industries, with a variety of checklists that say "once you are able to accomplish that, we will trust you to do this".  No Industry necessarily has to have a checklist that is balanced with another Industry.  No person has to excel in everything a certain Industry has to offer.  But there are areas that an Industry will not let you touch, unless you bring past experience in that Industry.  Liken it to Planetside, but without the silly point pool that lets you "spend your points".  Or liken it to World of Warcraft's approach to quests that give you skill, but for the love of God, keep it away from quests for level experience.  Keep it real-world based, when possible, and build the fiction where needed(like spell casting).  

There is plenty of non-traditional MMOG content, and real world content, that could be added to this game.  More importantly, anyone, at anytime, could concievably grab that laptop, or that basic sniper rifle, or that grenade, and use it.  They might not be the best grenade tosser there is in the game, but there is no artificial "You need to be Level 16 to use this!" bullshit.  Grab a better weapon off you enemy, but have never used it before?  Go ahead, use it.  But don't count on getting another when you lose it.  If you want another, go train a little, until you reach the real skill needed to use it.  The game recognizes this true skill, and lets you have easy access to it in the future.

Now populate the world with a ton of toys that anyone can use, but those with true skill will use them well.  Access to certain toys(i.e tank, plane, magic carpet, whatever) from the NPCs is only achievable by certification.  Now go have endless dynamic fun, without arbitrary, artificial, traditional MMOG hooks.

Just an alternate approach to ponder.

[ahoythematey]

You've traded one xp bar for another, really, albeit a more involving xp bar.

[AOFanboi]

A good idea, as long as you also throw out combat. The one error I feel MMOG designers do is to make a combat system, then add other mechanisms like tradeskills that only serve to further the combat, and directly or indirectly tie progress to the act of fighting. In effect, they reduce the game to CoH plus fluff, and then you might just as well play CoH.

How often during a normal workday do you fight? Do people come to business negotiations with swords or guns? Not normally. Are the other activities people perform when they're not busy fighting worth modeling in a game?

So you could build a MMOG with full PvP, but all PvP was non-violent, like business deals, diplomacy, competitions, sports etc.

That would interest me more than the current crop. Perhaps I am looking for a less hectic version of Stardock's strategy games (The Corporate Machine, The Political Machine), but with more of teh shiney and less ties to the real world. And with persistence.

[Xilren's Twin]

Could an entirely class-less, "skill"-less system work?  It would for me.

The "real life", true skill approach:

The game would be all about the player's skill, not character skill.  Want to drive a tank?  Show everyone that you can drive a car, then Jeep, then APC or whatever.  Want to learn that high level spell?  First, prove to the game and the players around you that you show a certain degree of knowledge, be it real-word, or somewhat fictional.  Want the tools to access a mainframe?  First, show some basic computer knowledge, then later, OS and programing knowledge.

Problem is, very few people would have all the "skills" they would want to do the fun things in game they desire, unless the level of skill needed to get that cert is trivial (and therefore meaningless).  Purely player skill driven games are self selecting; if you don't have a certain minimum skill, why bother to play?

Further, while you might could design some hoops to jump through for skills that have real life equivalents, what to you test for to prove skill in a wholly made up ability like spellcasting or psychic abilities, or purely physical abilities like strength or endurance.

I could also very easily see guilds sharing their characters and logging on their "best" players for any given skill to get them that cert.  So either you would have to use the player skill in question in game all the time, or it's a minor qualification bar that once hurdled has no more to do with ability than being a good FPS player means you can shoot well in real life.

Just some thoughts

Xilren

[WonderBrick]

Great input.  :)

[Shannow]

I think this comes back to a standard statement that covers a lot of great games over the years...'Easy to learn , difficult to master'...
Your current mmOLG takes the approach of 'time consuming to learn, ridicolously time consuming to Master'.
At the end of the day though if you make the basic game mechanics easy enough for people to learn then I dont believe you can have a PVE game.
You see a PVE, levelling game has to have 'barriers' to stop people making level 100 on their first day. Currently the best barrier is time. If you remove the time barrier then the barrier you are left with is the AI and lets face it killing AI isnt fun.
So imho a true skilled based game needs to be PVP to be truely fun with maybe some PVE elements thrown in for downtime.

[Dren]

I do believe this has a lot of merit.  While I was a GM for a very large guild in UO, I developed a system outside of the game that rewarded members for going through certain contests.  I did this when we were a small guild in order to increase the players' enjoyment of the game because I felt like UO was lacking in this area.

I basically kept track of each player on my website and gave out titles and badges (only shown on their member page of course.)  The contest included those for combat and for crafting.  The combat tests were based off of character skill for the low levels, but then went on to more challenging things such as defeating 2 foes or protecting somebody from 2 foes.  The different skills used meant a different type of title such as Guild Ranger, or Warlock, etc.  Other titles could be tacked on as well to build up noteriety within the guild and bragging rights.

Crafter tests where in line with skill as well, but then graduated into filling out large orders (way before bulk order deeds!)  Then it went on to goals of merchanting (proof of having 1 millino gold in their account and several shops open at once.)  Those titles went from Guild Tailor on up to Merchant Prince, etc.  (If the website is still up I'll link it.)

My point is that even though the players did not get any ingame skill enhancements or attributes, they got recognition and a "mini-game" that they truly enjoyed doing.  They did get higher positions within the guild government though.  The system was wildly popular and was used for many years even after I had stepped down from my position in the guild.

That proved to me that player skill could be organized in a way to give real advantages and that the players really responded to it well.  There is still a huge leap from this to an ingame mechanical system for it, but it proves to me that the interest is there.

**Edit** I can't believe it but the site is still up.  Here is the award system I developed.
http://www.calamity.net/Destiny/Awards.htm

[eldaec]

This is almost exactly the model ATITD uses surely?

[Moroni]

In reality it still coems down to a skill system. The treadmill is still there for players who want to practice at getting better at things. The illusion is just that the player himself is better instead of the avatar, but the end result is still the same as a skill based system with no point cap. It is a cool way to look at rearranging the way skill based systems work though.

[WayAbvPar]

**Edit** I can't believe it but the site is still up. Here is the award system I developed.
http://www.calamity.net/Destiny/Awards.htm

That is great! What a fun way to keep interest high with the guildies. Very cool.

[Krakrok]

You see a PVE, levelling game has to have 'barriers' to stop people making level 100 on their first day. Currently the best barrier is time. If you remove the time barrier then the barrier you are left with is the AI and lets face it killing AI isnt fun.

I'd also point to Legend of the Red Dragon as an alternative way which limits you to 25 forest fights per day. Once you fight 25 times (think of a forest fight as a CoH instance) you can't fight again that day. You could go sleep with the barmaid though. And you were limited to attacked 3 players per day.

Here is the award system I developed.

That is much like the award system in Rome: Total War (which I like).

[Roac]

Krakrok, LORD's method of limiting how much you could do in a day was similar to most BBS chains.  It's also been done in MMOGs, in a limited sense; UO's power hour.

[Viin]

Speaking of "moments to learn, a life time to master" - anyone tried Puzzle Pirates? Kinda fits that nicely.

It think the key issue is this:

 Do you allow player skill to influence gameplay?

If the answer is yes, well there goes half your crowd. If you say no, well there goes the other half.

Maybe we just expect too much from MMOs.. should we be playing SWG for our RPG fix and Counter Strike for our twitch/skill fix?

Or maybe one of those fabled MMO RTS FPS Tactical Simulation games? (Hmm, almost sounds like Natural Selection without the first M!)

 - Viin

[Arnold]

Purely player skill driven games are self selecting; if you don't have a certain minimum skill, why bother to play?

To improve in skill?  Skill level is not a static thing, it's something that can be practiced and improved upon.  People who hate player skill in games are just afraid of having their own (lack of)skill compared against that of more accomplished players.  They'd rather just have a timesink to be compared against.

I'd rather play a game where I had to improve my "player skill" to be a success.

[Arnold]

In reality it still coems down to a skill system. The treadmill is still there for players who want to practice at getting better at things. The illusion is just that the player himself is better instead of the avatar, but the end result is still the same as a skill based system with no point cap. It is a cool way to look at rearranging the way skill based systems work though.

But it's not an illusion.  You can log in at anytime, and your avatar, in a character-skill system will be just as good as ever.  However, if you don't log into a player-skill based game for a long time, you will be rusty and you will get your ass handed to you.

Pressing an auotattack key before retrieving a soda from the fridge isn't anything like participating in a battle that requires player input and twitch skill.  Please don't compare the two and declare them to be the same thing.