The Holy Trinity

[Morat20]

Most memorable D&D group I was in had a generic_warrior with a semi-cursed magic longsword, a paranoid megalomaniacal halfling thief, cynical dwarf cleric with a heart of...goldish (me) and an excellently RPed "high int low wis" mage (if only by coincidence).

Nick? Is that you?

I actually played a mage like that. In fact, I played him so well that they lowered my wisdom further to keep it in tune with the total cluelessness of my mage. (I did get an int boost for it).

Seriously, though, DPS and tanking and all that shouldn't even be on the table for a properly run P&P game. Sure, you need to be able to KILL something at times -- but I've never run a P&P game that felt anything at all like DIKU, except for the swords and sorcery bit.

[Daeven]

Me despises Holy Trinity hooga-booga.

Me liked in UO when everyone was able to do everything.

And yes, I'm serious. No more contrived and obligatory roles in a group.

You all are a bunch of carebears. Bring back freak air-lock permadeath accidents during Character Creation alla Traveler 1st ed. Byiotch!

[Kageru]

I always liked the rolemaster system, although it suffered from excessive table-litis in the combat mechanics. That did allow it to represent that heavy armor causes you to take more hits (low evasion) for less damage and criticals, though even the best armor would allow for a weakspot being found. Likewise the character creation system gave you a number of points and a template, if you wanted your mage to learn how to handle a sword you could, but it would be harder than it was for someone who specialised in that sort of thing. This made the class more about a set of strengths than a straitjacket, Fallout did pretty much the same in CRPG's.

Ultima I didn't like, with such a small number of skills allowed per character and some of them being so vital to survival (weapon skill, armor skill, magery, melee or magician energy regen) it felt very constrained.

I do miss PnP, strong positional mapping plus a lot of freedom in action made for some interesting battles. But MMORPG's are just so much more convenient, and mean someone doesn't have to sink huge amounts of time into DM'ing.

[amiable]

I do miss PnP, strong positional mapping plus a lot of freedom in action made for some interesting battles. But MMORPG's are just so much more convenient, and mean someone doesn't have to sink huge amounts of time into DM'ing.

If you like PnP I have not enough good things to say about the Star Wars: Saga ruleset.  They really streamlined d20 and it is a blast to play and GM.   It is so intuitive I actually got my wife to play with us.

[cmlancas]

I hesitate to ask, but... was it a gnome-sized lock, or did you use a particularly small and slender part of the gnome to do the picking?   

The DM had us in a giant's house-type-castle-thingy. It was a gnome sized lock. He didn't survive, and we hated the guy because he was annoying so we left him for dead and forced him to reroll.

[Samwise]

Was your character a giant, or an exceptionally strong human, or what?  Or did you rend the gnome into more manageable pieces before using him to pick the lock?

[Lantyssa]

Oh my gods!  My off-hand comment spawned this monstrosity.

For what it's worth, I consider the origin to (mostly) be EQ1 because that is when it became manditory to have "the Holy Trinity".  Sure some of the individual concepts were out there in DnD and MUDs, however a solo player or party could get by with what everyone found fun to play.  The nickname exists because the Trinity was required to do anything.

Also, multi-classing was completely ignored to this point.  That alone removes the need for three very specific characters to fullfil set roles.

[Dtrain]

Oh my gods!  My off-hand comment spawned this monstrosity.

This was like the geek equivalent of mutually assured destruction in action.

In the end we are left to adapt to a bizarre and transformed landscape of a thread where biker gangs with mohawks terrorize the countryside and locks are picked by offensive humanoids.

But back to the topic, I think you can look at D&D and MUDs and CRPGs as having included the "holy trinity," discussed here, though not in name. After all, you always preferred that Orc#3 would try to hit your barbarian instead of your wizard regardless of if you were playing Might and Magic, D&D 1st Edition, or some random Diku. You always took a healer with you, and (in most games,) some class that could do enough damage to justify its low survivability.

However, it was really the competition and catassery that EQ1 encouraged, along with it being an accepted standard shared in a large enough social network that crystallized the concept and established the tactics, which in term inspired the later game design that required the behavior, and (I suggest,) led to the phrase being used to describe the basic "thing you do to win."

So basically, are we asking where the term came from, or where the concept came from? The term comes from EQ1, while the concept of combined arms is as old as organized warfare. But that might be getting a little far from a discussion of video games.

[damijin]

I has a question for UO players.

I have only ever played diku derived PvP MMOs. This means that I find group PvP to be exciting because there are many different roles that have to be satisfied simultaneously with competency in order to be effective. I always saw this as a good thing, as I tend to play with competent people.

What's PvP like if you throw the trinity out the window?

[Megrim]

A lot more fun. See EVE.

[Jeff Kelly]

Earthdawn was one of the greatest RPGs I got to GM. Awesome setting, interesting ruleset, and much RPing and good storytelling abounded.

and like most small company RPGs it got totally fucked up by its publisher.

I never really liked D&D because it severely limited the ability to customize your character. Rise a level, get some hitpoints, sometimes a stat rises by +1, rinse repeat.

I think most D&D players's heads would explode if they ever played something like The Dark Eye 3rd Edition or Earthdawn.

Unfortunately D20 was the deathknell to many small independent RPGs. 7th Sea got converted to D20 (blasphemy), Earthdawn is essentially dead, Deadlands also.

[Tebonas]

Somebody else knows 7th Sea? My Ussuran Trader is impressed!

[Ratman_tf]

A lot more fun. See EVE.

Yup. Two things kill PvP. Levels and PvE party roles. 

[Jeff Kelly]

Somebody else knows 7th Sea? My Ussuran Trader is impressed!

7th Sea is a great example that the system has to fit to the setting. Epic swashbuckling battles where you swung from chandeliers while fighting hordes of minions and fast gameplay all fit very well to the setting. I never got why they had to convert it to D20. D20 sucked all of the fun out of 7th Sea.

Deadlands without the poker deck would be only half as much fun to play. Earthdawn is the best system for group play. Every character sucks on his own, only by using the synergies of the group can you succed and so on.

D20 and the OGL killed a lot of great smaller systems.

[Simond]

and like most small company RPGs it got totally fucked up by its publisher.

Think positive - the founder of FASA bought back MechWarrior, Crimson Skies and Shadowrun from Microsoft a few weeks back and as Shadowrun was a (possible) future for Earthdawn it's not impossible that he'll buy back Earthdawn at some point.

[Simond]

Most memorable D&D group I was in had a generic_warrior with a semi-cursed magic longsword, a paranoid megalomaniacal halfling thief, cynical dwarf cleric with a heart of...goldish (me) and an excellently RPed "high int low wis" mage (if only by coincidence).

Nick? Is that you?

I actually played a mage like that. In fact, I played him so well that they lowered my wisdom further to keep it in tune with the total cluelessness of my mage. (I did get an int boost for it).

Did you ever decided to empirically test the deformability of the AoE of the fireball spell by using it inside an inn's (small) public bar? 

[Venkman]

What's PvP like if you throw the trinity out the window?

Roles don't really work well in PvP except for the clearly defined DPS and Healing. There's no real taunt system, and tanks are somewhat at a continual disadvantage unless they've got a bunch of items that can break the rolling CCs. You want to kill stuff fast, and everyone is capable of doing that to a degree, even people who are otherwise told to stand in front to taunt and soak.

I actually enjoy it alot, but only when I'm done leveling. In my opinion, PvP in a DIKU works best when the levels don't factor into the fight. But unfortunately this is at odds with one of the proven methods to retain accounts. So until someone points out the obvious (that Eve has even better retention than any DIKU), we're stuck in this PvE-until-the-fun-stuff mode ala Shadowbane without the sb.exe. Or the Korean grinds.

[Hoax]

A lot more fun. See EVE.

Yup. Two things kill PvP. Levels and PvE party roles. 

Wow somebody who isn't a moron when it comes to pvp?  We're damn close to 10 people I bet!@!!  Its not even just levels, its the idea that a LXX can't even be touched by a LXX-20 and if he is touched the bullet/sword/axe/fire will bounce off him because he's that much more ub3r.  Great game design there guys. 

[Ratman_tf]

Wow somebody who isn't a moron when it comes to pvp?  We're damn close to 10 people I bet!@!!  Its not even just levels, its the idea that a LXX can't even be touched by a LXX-20 and if he is touched the bullet/sword/axe/fire will bounce off him because he's that much more ub3r.  Great game design there guys. 

Well, that's what I meant when I said levels kill PvP. Arguably, it kills immersion in PvE as well, when it takes 20 guys beating on an alligator for a half hour to kill it. 

[Johny Cee]

What's PvP like if you throw the trinity out the window?

Roles don't really work well in PvP except for the clearly defined DPS and Healing. There's no real taunt system, and tanks are somewhat at a continual disadvantage unless they've got a bunch of items that can break the rolling CCs. You want to kill stuff fast, and everyone is capable of doing that to a degree, even people who are otherwise told to stand in front to taunt and soak.

I disagree.

Tanking is gone,  but effective groups employ roles.

DAoC 8v8: 

DPS,  Healing, CC in the early days.  Moved to DPS (tank train), Healing (main healers), Interrupts (bard spamnesia, thurg, healers).  Diseasers and snarers were sometimes big.  Many groups employed a full time pealer,  a melee class with a stun or snare style,  to delay or hold down the main assist/tank train.

Hell,  TF2:

DPS + healing.  Soldiers and demos are used as suppression/diversion (CC) as much as damage.  Spys to incapicated sentries (CC?)  or hit a couple on the back line as distraction for the rush.

[Ezdaar]

If you need specific classes in a P&P RPG you should kick your GM in the nuts.

[Wershlak]

Tanks are pretty powerful in group PvP in EQ2. Taunts in EQ2 work to force the person to target you. In hectic open world PvP an AOE taunt can totally save a healer can often turn the tide of the battle. A lot can happen in the few seconds until people can reacquire the right target.

[Ratman_tf]

Tanks are pretty powerful in group PvP in EQ2. Taunts in EQ2 work to force the person to target you. In hectic open world PvP an AOE taunt can totally save a healer can often turn the tide of the battle. A lot can happen in the few seconds until people can reacquire the right target.

While I agree that it's a valid tactic, and it's kind of reminiscent of target jamming in Eve, the sheer quality and quantity of CC in games like WoW and DAOC means that a player can wind up spending a lot of his PvP time "waiting to die". It's a very frustrating situation when it happens.

[Slyfeind]

Heh. I find it funny to imagine a "tank" in a table-top game; that is, if we're saying tanks are there to soak up damage. If I was a warrior, and someone told me "It's your job to get hurt and maybe die," I think I'd smack him. If someone was playing a character who did have a penchant for letting things hurt him, I think that character would have died at like 11 or 12, after jumping into a pit of alligators.

[Venkman]

DAoC 8v8: 

DPS,  Healing, CC in the early days.  Moved to DPS (tank train), Healing (main healers), Interrupts (bard spamnesia, thurg, healers).  Diseasers and snarers were sometimes big.  Many groups employed a full time pealer,  a melee class with a stun or snare style,  to delay or hold down the main assist/tank train.

Hell,  TF2:

DPS + healing.  Soldiers and demos are used as suppression/diversion (CC) as much as damage.  Spys to incapicated sentries (CC?)  or hit a couple on the back line as distraction for the rush.

A good point. But then, you don't spend months and months directly building TF2 DPSer and Healer. I am still a bit unsure on what those unlockable abilities do, but if I understand correct, they don't nearly have the impact on your character as some new ability or piece of gear for your classic MMORPG toon. Your Healer has that gun (with the secondary ability), those darts, and the hack saw thingy. That's it, forever.

Your DAoC thing is closer I think. I haven't been in WoW BGs since before the expansion launched, but stuff like that did happen.

So awright, there is roles

[Morat20]

Did you ever decided to empirically test the deformability of the AoE of the fireball spell by using it inside an inn's (small) public bar? 

No, although my absolute favorite combat took place in a small inn and DID involve a fireball. The party rogue and I decided to have an alternate universe duel while the GM was setting up, and given the fact that I was NOT a combat mage I was given a scroll of time stop to help out.

It was a very good lesson on "Why Magic Missile is the spell to use on rogues, and not, for instance, FUCKING FIREBALLS." Also a good lesson in "Fireball shaping in small areas".

Fucking evasion.

[Tebonas]

Ain't that the truth!

[Trippy]

I has a question for UO players.

I have only ever played diku derived PvP MMOs. This means that I find group PvP to be exciting because there are many different roles that have to be satisfied simultaneously with competency in order to be effective. I always saw this as a good thing, as I tend to play with competent people.

What's PvP like if you throw the trinity out the window?

Everybody's a tank-mage.

[Merusk]

I has a question for UO players.

I have only ever played diku derived PvP MMOs. This means that I find group PvP to be exciting because there are many different roles that have to be satisfied simultaneously with competency in order to be effective. I always saw this as a good thing, as I tend to play with competent people.

What's PvP like if you throw the trinity out the window?

Everybody's a tank-mage.

No way!  Everyone would be a diverse build of varying degrees and the 'tyrrany' of class-based gaming would die!  You seem to be implying that everyone would migrate to 2-3 'optimized' skill builds, enforcing a class-based system in all but name and actually LIMITING the # of playability options (from a metagame standpoint) vs a class-based system.

Surely not!

[Murgos]

Everybody's a tank-mage.

No way!  Everyone would be a diverse build of varying degrees and the 'tyrrany' of class-based gaming would die!  You seem to be implying that everyone would migrate to 2-3 'optimized' skill builds, enforcing a class-based system in all but name and actually LIMITING the # of playability options (from a metagame standpoint) vs a class-based system.

Surely not!

Well, it's either that or tamer-fag.

[Simond]

Did you ever decided to empirically test the deformability of the AoE of the fireball spell by using it inside an inn's (small) public bar? 

No, although my absolute favorite combat took place in a small inn and DID involve a fireball. The party rogue and I decided to have an alternate universe duel while the GM was setting up, and given the fact that I was NOT a combat mage I was given a scroll of time stop to help out.

It was a very good lesson on "Why Magic Missile is the spell to use on rogues, and not, for instance, FUCKING FIREBALLS." Also a good lesson in "Fireball shaping in small areas".

Fucking evasion.

In my group's mage's defence, it was  o'clock in the morning and the taproom door had just previously been kicked open by a marauding band of cut-throats, bandits and other ne'er-do-wells who were now standing around the small room and demanding the inn's takings.
To be fair to me, also contained within the small room were the rest of the adventuring party, a couple of unconscious-from-the-turnip-cider locals, and the innkeeper's wide & daughter (both being held hostage by the aforementioned thugs).

Luckily we managed to pull off some amazing heroics to (mostly) protect the innocents in the room, and my cleric was also pretty much fireproof to boot (being a priest of the Dwarven god of the Forge had its perks).

[Lantyssa]

In an old second edition game, my cohort the mage didn't bother with trifling matters such as room volume or my position in it.  I quickly invested in fire (and magic) protection as best I could.  He did the same almost as quickly.

[SnakeCharmer]

Forget you ever played a MUD.
Forget you ever played DnD.
Read some books.  Not Tolkien, but off the wall, bargin bin crap that noone looks to for inspiration.  Seriously.
Kick roles out the window.
Kick levels out the window.
Make cool professions or classes or subprofessions or subclasses that have leanings towards roles, but aren't pigeonholed into it -or- or clearly defined by it unless by player choice.
Disguise XP in such a manner that you get points in specific item usage a la UO or any other game that rewards specific xp for specific item usage.  You use it?  You get better at it.  If you get 30 points in daggers (or pistols), you have 30 points in pistols to spend on specials.  Have equipment degredation over time to help prevent bots (which you absolutely cannot prevent anyway, you can only curb it, and slow it down through various measures), but make items repairable until they reach zero condition.  At zero, they break, and you're fucked.
Realize that players will break your 'balance' within 30 minutes of seeing the layout of skills and professions.  Make it fun first, balance a distant second.  Balance is a myth.  You can't balance one player being better than another.  Make the math balanced, be done with it.

Probably niche.  But it would be fun for me.

[Murgos]

When I was a teenager and couldn't be arsed to actually go through all the crap it took to make a P&P game happen, two or three of us would play what we called, "Dude's World".  Really it was just interactive story telling, anything goes but make it cool kind of stuff.

I remember details from some of those sessions way clearer than most of the marathon P&P, books, charts and screens and etc evenings.

[lamaros]

All these years I thought the that holy trinity was sex drugs and rock 'n roll...