F13 Book Club

[Samwise]

So how are we picking the next book?  We've got a week.  Are we taking it in turns to be book club dictators?

[cmlancas]

That I'm not sure. However, the next genre will be Noir/Mystery, as it was second in the poll. I have a pick I'd like to put forth, but I know it won't be cmlancas's book club :)

[lamaros]

Well, my suggestions is The Postman Always Rings Twice, as mentioned earlier.

Or if mystery and not noir I will suggest a good Agatha

[Samwise]

I'd go for a Nero Wolfe mystery.   

I'm not sure how much discussion we'd get out of one, but damn are they entertaining.

[Margalis]

For a modern take on noir I would suggest Andrew Vachss' Strega. To me the point of a book club is in part to expose people to new stuff and I doubt many people have read Vachss.

[cmlancas]

I'd agree, but I was trying to hold the discussion to things discussed on a collegiate level. Ideas within that spectrum? Postman is a good choice imo -- I can get outside my comfort zone. 

I'd be happy to take your pick though, Margalis.


Would anyone be interested in doing a few weeks on 20th century modernism? We got a pretty good response on Vonnegut so far (we had people who couldn't wait to post), and I think it would be unfair to modernism as a whole to only read one novel.

Thoughts?

[Margalis]

Why restrict to things on the collegiate level? I'm not in college, are you?

Let's throw out suggestions for noir and have someone make the final choice. Not me, I don't know much about the genre, and I'd rather spend my pick on something else. Let's just list a few possibilities and someone can take a turn as dictator.

[cmlancas]

Yes, I am. However, I've linked stuff like critical articles written on Cat's Cradle, and I won't be able to do that for Random_Book_01 someone wants us to read. While it's okay to go outside the collegiate level, I really want to be reading things that are generally accepted as "literature" (Yes, I just used a huge, arguable abstraction there. Don't flog me, this isn't politics). I also posted in the first post in my thread that "The Return of the Book Thread" was over there someplace.

Originally when I started this thread, I had something like the discussion we have in the V thread in mind about great literature. Don't make me read manga, eh?

[lamaros]

I'm torn.

The stated purpose of this 'club' was to read literature which holds itself in some sort of safety net. As cmlancas said, it's better to discuss things where you have some critical material to fall back on. I think if many of you just chose anything you'd pick bad books. Bad books being ones that a) I don't enjoy, and b) aren't good for discussion.

On the other hand it's nice to read newer stuff and a lot of things you do at college level aren't within the last 10 years, let alone 5. As long as we have a good discussion before we pick new stuff and people have the ability to veto I'm not against that either.

I can think of a few recent books that would be quite good for discussing.

[Margalis]

You have to have a certain amount of faith in people to not pick bad books.

[Samwise]

 If someone picks a book that everyone else hates we just don't let them pick again.  I'm perfectly willing to wade through one medicore book per person.  Reading books you don't like builds character.

[lamaros]

Can I suggest a new category?

Books by writers who committed suicide.

[cmlancas]

You have to have a certain amount of faith in people to not pick bad books.

This is f13 here, Marg. Do you have that faith? 

[Samwise]

I thought up an algorithm for rotating book selection today that includes a player justice system.  I will share it with you as evidence of the fact that there is something terribly wrong with me.

There is a list of all the book club members.  You stay on this list as long as you read the book each week and post something in that book's thread.  New or returning members are added to the list at the bottom.  ("Fallen" members are maintained in a separate "inactive" list and are inserted at the top as they go inactive; if multiple members return in a given week, they're added to the bottom of the active member list in whatever order they were in the "inactive" list.)

Each book is selected by the person at the top of the active member list.  That person is then moved to the bottom of the active member list.

During the discussion period for each book, any currently-active member who read the book and really hated it may opt to put a "black spot" on the member who selected it.

If it is your turn to pick a book and you have one or more black spots, you do not get to pick a book; instead one black spot is removed from your name and you go to the bottom of the list as if you had picked a book.  The next person in the list picks a book as usual.  Black spots are not wiped if you go inactive.

 

[Rendakor]

That system works for me Sam, though, someone should be able to pass if they have no suggestions for the genre that's up (or are we not rotating genres based on the poll? cmlancas has been speaking as if we are doing so, and if that's the case someone is invariably going to come upon a genre that they have no experience in). I'd say passing just moves you down one spot, rather than put you at the bottom, if we're doing some kind of genre rotation. If not, than passing should put you at the bottom.

[lamaros]

If it is your turn to pick a book and you have one or more black spots, you do not get to pick a book; instead one black spot is removed from your name and you go to the bottom of the list as if you had picked a book.  The next person in the list picks a book as usual.  Black spots are not wiped if you go inactive.

One to one is a bad ratio. Otherwise I could just put a black spot on everyone and nothing would get chosen. Or we could have a book that everyone but one person loved and yet the person who suggested it never suggested one again.. etc.

[MaceVanHoffen]

I will start a website where people can buy black spots from me for Real Money!  I'll start making lots of F13 accounts now so I can spam everyone.  Samwise just made my moneyhat for me.

[Samwise]

One to one is a bad ratio. Otherwise I could just put a black spot on everyone and nothing would get chosen. Or we could have a book that everyone but one person loved and yet the person who suggested it never suggested one again.. etc.

If everyone has a black spot (or any equal number of spots), they all cancel out, because the queue just rotates until they've all been cleared.  That's the brilliance.   

If you have a book that everyone but one person loves, then the suggester only gets one black spot, which means they only sit out one "rotation" at most (and that's assuming that everyone else in the list picks only books that are loved by all).

If you're a dick and blackspot everyone, their spots will all clear pretty quickly; they, on the other hand, are liable to all blackspot you out of spite, and you probably won't get another suggestion in your natural lifetime.

Also, I like Rendakor's suggestion, but I assume that we'd just dispense with the genre rotation and figure that genres will naturally sort themselves out according to individual tastes (if 70% of the people in the club like noir, then 70% of the books picked will probably be noir if everyone gets to pick the same number of times).

It's cmlancas's show, though, so what we do is up to him.  I just thought the problem of designing a "fair" rotation scheme that has some insurance against people with godawful taste was an interesting one.   

[lamaros]

I thought the point was to read stuff out of the comfort zone. If we leave it to people to pick then I assume we'll get a whole lot of shit sf. After all, if you don't read much you'r enot going to have many ideas about what's going to be good.

I think a system is better simple. Rotate categories and people picking. If there turns out ot be issues with the choices people have made it's be obvious and can be delt with at the time.

Now, can more people talk about the book for this bit!? I don't want to sit here in silence, but neither do I want to hog the conversation. Maybe it's just a weekend thing.

[Rendakor]

The prob with rotating genres lamaros is that not all of us have read stuff out of all genres. I know literally no victorian or romantic authors, and only the modern or postmodern stuff I read in HS (and I can't say I enjoyed much of it). If it ever came to me to suggest, I'd want to pitch something by Chuck Palahniuk (he wrote Fight Club but that wouldn't be my suggestion), except a) most people here have already read his stuff and b) what category would he fall under? Late 20th postmodern, maybe?

If we just rotate categories and people picking it's going to turn into a 3 man show with only those of you who are well read suggesting things, and the rest of us sitting here not contributing; I'd rather read a few "shit sf" books and have books from everyone than a nice well versed selection from 3 people.

Re: the book, post something if you've got something to discuss. I'm bad at this, and raised the only points I thought of; I chose to stay out of your pissing contest with Margalis, as it reminded me too much of Politics

[lamaros]

Well see, my thing would be mentioning books I havn't read. I think anyone can look up a category and find out what type of novels they are and find one that sounds good to them. Or make up a new category. As long as it's not all the same it doesn't matter after all. It's not like the categories cmlancas put up are exhaustive.

[Rendakor]

I thought the point was that we recommend books we've read, so that when everyone else reads it, they have some guarantee that it's not totally godawful. Thats why I liked Samwise's idea. If I was willing to just pick books randomly from these genres, I'd have read them by now.

[Engels]

My suggestion is "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep", by Phillip K Dick from 1968. This is the book Bladerunner is based on. Its different enough from the movie that it has stuff to talk about, yet to me its as compelling a read as the movie was to watch. It also goes more deeply into some isssues that then movie does, such as the destruction of earth's wildlife and the entire concept of empathy as the defining factor of defining a human being. Lots to talk about, action, social dystopia and more sci-fi gadgetry than you can shake a stick at. And its from an author that I, at least, consider part of capital L literature.

It is longer than the previous book, at 224 pages.

Amazon link here

[cmlancas]

mmm. Another good choice. But let's not forget that Blade Runner is also based on "Nighthawks" too. 

[Engels]

mmm. Another good choice. But let's not forget that Blade Runner is also based on "Nighthawks" too. 

Uhm, I'm not familiar with Nighthawks.

[Strazos]

Gosh, I almost want to suggest a book or two, but I'm pretty sure I'd get Blackspotted to hell. I was not a lit guy in college.

[cmlancas]

^Nighthawks by Hopper

This probably won't stay long, I don't feel like image dumping it.

[Engels]

Ah, I see what you mean. Well, this might be a turn off for some, but the book DADOS isn't very noire-ish. It has the atmosphere present in most Phillip K Dick stories.

[naum]

I voted for Sci-Fi… …I'd like to read some fiction, I read a great deal, but mostly all non-fiction these days…

Some suggestions:

Neuromancer by William Gibson (or other title by William Gibson)
Starship Troopers (or other title by Robert Heinlein, have read some, but still have never read Stranger in a Strange Land)
Otherland by Tad Williams
Neal Stephenson (though not my favorite,  I have to strain to read…)

Maybe we can narrow down to a short list of titles (in voted upon genre) and then vote on the title (or author)…

[cmlancas]

Uh, we picked a sci-fi book. Did you see it?

[naum]

Uh, we picked a sci-fi book. Did you see it?

No, didn't see that… …scratch my last post then…

[lamaros]

DADoES has probably been read by a few people, and is SF, which we've already had. The Movie is noirish, but the book is notsomuch.

I like Philip K. Dick as much as anyone, but I think he has better books than that one, and that it'd be better to wait till we get back to SF again to pick it.

I thought the point was that we recommend books we've read, so that when everyone else reads it, they have some guarantee that it's not totally godawful. That's why I liked Samwise's idea. If I was willing to just pick books randomly from these genres, I'd have read them by now.

Well, there's no guarantee. Some of you like American Gods and such, afterall.

But seriously. How do you read and find new things if no one ever reads something new? For those of you not willing to take a chance on a new book you're dependent on people who are, and who's taste you share, to broaden your reading. You don't have to do it randomly. Afterall, the first time you read The Great Gatsby it was probably recommended by things you had just heard about the book generally. Reading Joyce, Faulkner, etc you were probably confident enough to just go off their reputation and not depend on someone who you knew having read the novel.

[Phildo]

Neuromancer by William Gibson (or other title by William Gibson)
Starship Troopers (or other title by Robert Heinlein, have read some, but still have never read Stranger in a Strange Land)
Neal Stephenson (though not my favorite,  I have to strain to read…)

You just listed half of the books I've read in the last 6 months.

[lamaros]

Modernism
Post-Modernism
Romanticism
Victorianism
Female Authors
Science Fiction/Fantasy
Crime/Mystery/Noir

Other categories I suggest:

Short Fiction.
Asian Literature.
Black writers.
Non-Fiction.
Poetry.
Magic Realism. (As much as I generally hate it).
Pre-16th century fiction.
and
Free Book Choice!

[Miasma]

Today The Onion called us "a bunch of freaks".  I think we should shut this down and delete all the threads.