Goth Skaters Attack SUV

[SnakeCharmer]

Thank you for wasting 500 gallons of gas a year hauling around your golf clubs.

Anytime. 

A Ford Focus wagon won't pull a 25 foot Contender that weighs 7000+ lbs ready to fish, and subsequently burns 150+ gallons of fuel in a day, or about a gallon a minute.  A Ford Focus wagon won't pull two four wheelers+trailer.  A Ford Focus won't pull the '68 Mustang when needed on a flatbed trailer.

That's what the Ford PSD 4x4 is for.

I'm the very far end of gasoline usage spectrum.  My hobbies aren't everyman hobbies.

There's not a single vehicle in my garage that gets over 18 mpg probably.  And I'll sit in my leather wrapped climate controlled comfort, and sip my double mocha latte just for you.

[Evildrider]

I  my Mustang and it gets worse gas mileage then my Blazer.

I'm not giving up either for some hybrid p.o.s.

[WayAbvPar]

Come talk to us when oil hits $150 a barrel.

[SnakeCharmer]

Come talk to us when oil hits $150 a barrel.

And it still won't bother me. 

The boat is owned be me and two friends who split the initial cost three ways from a government auction at a substantially lower cost than walking into a dealership and buying one new.  A new 25' Contender fully rigged out would be in the neighborhood of 150K-180K (which we couldn't afford even going in 1/3rds).  Our cost was much, much less even after repair and putting new electronics on it.

Typically a fishing trip is 5 people, splitting the cost 5 ways.  The PSD was bought used (also government auction), and isn't daily driven.  Even though it doesn't burn that much more diesel than the GTO burns gas, it's just too damn big and is a complete bear to bring into the parking garage at my office.

Further, as far as fuel is concerned between me and my wife - First, we don't drive that much.  She averages about 8K a year, I average about 15K a year.  Second, she's technically an employee of my company, and both of our fuel costs (and maintanence) are absorbed by the company as a tax write off. 

In the grand scheme of things, our fuel costs would pretty much be a nonissue even if they weren't written off as an expense.  We just don't have that far to drive to anywhere.  26 mile round trip from my driveway to my office downtown.  4 mile round trip to grocery store/other.  Hell, it's only a 50 mile round trip from my house to Dauphin Island where put the boat in the water.

The '99 PSD gets MAYBE 5,000 miles a year - even loaning it out to friends
The '68 Mustang is still in resto-mod mode, and will likely get about 2,000 miles in a year (being split between the GTO and GNX)
The '87 GNX will get MAYBE 3,000 miles a year (being split between the GTO and Mustang).
The '04 GTO will get the remaining 10,000 miles a year.
The '05 ML350 gets 8,000 a year.

The difference between my 18 mpg GTO and a 30 mpg econobox is about 1300 a year, or just over a hundred bucks a month.  Not enough for me to worry about, especially considering I'd be in absolute HELL driving an econobox rattletrap deathmobile.

[Roac]

Come talk to us when oil hits $150 a barrel.

I also drive a Mustang and could afford that.  Helps that I carpool, but doesn't really matter for me.  Talking about whether I, or Evildrider, or SnakeCharmer, or anyone else can afford their car is a bit beside the point though; it gas gets to the point that people in the 25mpg range can't afford to drive, the world is just plain fucked.  Switching to 35mpg vehicles won't fix that.  

[cmlancas]

Stuff.

This was surprisingly well argued. I wish I could find some people to come together and do the same with a house instead of a boat. 

[Evildrider]

Come talk to us when oil hits $150 a barrel.

I also drive a Mustang and could afford that.  Helps that I carpool, but doesn't really matter for me.  Talking about whether I, or Evildrider, or SnakeCharmer, or anyone else can afford their car is a bit beside the point though; it gas gets to the point that people in the 25mpg range can't afford to drive, the world is just plain fucked.  Switching to 35mpg vehicles won't fix that.  

Pretty much agreed here.. we are just fucked.  Hybrids may "save the planet" but they also cost more to buy and maintain.  Ethanol is already jacking up prices of corn, which means that we may save money at the pump.. but we are paying more elsewhere.

[SnakeCharmer]

Come talk to us when oil hits $150 a barrel.

I also drive a Mustang and could afford that.  Helps that I carpool, but doesn't really matter for me.  Talking about whether I, or Evildrider, or SnakeCharmer, or anyone else can afford their car is a bit beside the point though; it gas gets to the point that people in the 25mpg range can't afford to drive, the world is just plain fucked.  Switching to 35mpg vehicles won't fix that.  

Pretty much it.  

Besides, just, what, 5 years ago oil was ~$50 a barrel.  It's ~$100 now.  People adapted.  It will be the same thing when it reaches ~$150, and it eventually will, probably sooner rather than later - especially if another couple hurricanes use the Gulf of Mexico as their playground, and not if but when a Democratic president is elected and permits research and drilling for oil in the GoM gets hamstrung.

Whatever I am going to drive is going to be what I want to drive.  I want to be comfortable, I want it to be 'me'.  I want my wife and son in something safer than some econobox.  Gas prices are something very low on the totem pole of priorities for me.

[Nevermore]

Stuff.

This was surprisingly well argued. I wish I could find some people to come together and do the same with a house instead of a boat. 

It's indeed a great argument for how SnakeCharmer can afford being wasteful, which is something that was never really in any doubt.  Of course, the point was how being wasteful affects everyone, not just Snakecharmer, but why would anyone care about the big picture when we can instead justify our own consumption with the classic "We're fucked anyway!" rationalization.

[Samwise]

There are different kinds of Goth. I'm sure there's sociology papers actually tracking the different Goth sects. According to a friend of mine, Goths get notoriously bitchy when the "wrong sort" of Goth is around. She's probably biased, as she was more the Lestat-type (Victorian-esque clothing, poetry, sad thoughts about death) amongst a bunch of industrial types that were barely distinquishable from punks.

Jesus, we make the world too complicated.

Maddox had the final word on goths IMO.

[SnakeCharmer]

Stuff.

This was surprisingly well argued. I wish I could find some people to come together and do the same with a house instead of a boat. 

It's indeed a great argument for how SnakeCharmer can afford being wasteful, which is something that was never really in any doubt.  Of course, the point was how being wasteful affects everyone, not just Snakecharmer, but why would anyone care about the big picture when we can instead justify our own consumption with the classic "We're fucked anyway!" rationalization.

How many cel phones do you go through a year?
How many DVD/CD's do you trash or not reuse (those that are RW)?
How many times do you carpool or use mass transit?
How many times do you fill your home recycle bin and take it in?
How many times are you be sure to purchase goods made of recycled material?
How many times have you bought regular batteries instead of rechargeables?
How many times have you upgraded your computer and sold/tossed the old part away?
How many times a year do you contribute time and money to local conservation efforts?
Paper or plastic?
How often do you ride a bike?
How much of an effort have you made to make your house more green?

Want me to go on?

[Simond]

By all means, Haemish.  Bask me in your know all knowledge of vehicle safety.

I note the conspicuous lack of reply to my post. 

[SnakeCharmer]

I forgot all about it to be honest.

What do you expect as a reply, anyway?  Some sites say 5*, some say differently.  Depends on who you want to believe.

[Nevermore]

Rationalization Number 2: No one else does enough, so why should I do anything?

How many cel phones do you go through a year? None, I'm the only person I know who doesn't own a cel phone.
How many DVD/CD's do you trash or not reuse (those that are RW)? I can't remember the last time I've thrown away a CD.  I don't buy very many either.
How many times do you carpool or use mass transit? I don't need to.  I live close enough to work that I can usually walk, unless there's really bad weather.
How many times do you fill your home recycle bin and take it in? Unfortunately the city doesn't do recycling pickups, like they did where I used to live.  I bring some plastics and glass to drop at the bin at work if I drive that day, though.
How many times are you be sure to purchase goods made of recycled material? When the choice is available, I'll choose the recycled good.  Who wouldn't?
How many times have you bought regular batteries instead of rechargeables? Let's see, one clock and two smoke detectors use batteries.  I've had to change each one maybe once in three years.  I have rechargeable batteries for my XBox controller and my wireless mouse and iPod are rechargeable, though.
How many times have you upgraded your computer and sold/tossed the old part away? I've upgraded computers twice and still have all three computers.  I've been thinking about donating the oldest one but haven't gotten around to wiping the harddrive.
How many times a year do you contribute time and money to local conservation efforts? Could you be more specific?  Going back to school on top of working full time hasn't left me with much time for volunteer work, but I have made some donations to varies causes.
Paper or plastic? Paper.  Paper bags hold more anyway.
How often do you ride a bike? I don't own a bike.  See above about walking.
How much of an effort have you made to make your house more green? Beyond the above?  What are you looking for?  I use the ceiling fans to cut down on air conditioner use, does that count?

Want me to go on? Go ahead if it makes you feel better about being part of the problem.

So, what did all of that have to do with you wasting gas?

Edit: I'd like to note that none of that is due to some big conscious effort to be Green and save teh world.  I don't own a cel phone because I haven't found a need for one.  I'm fortunate to happen to live very close to where I work.  I tend to not be a big consumer of items: I don't buy a lot of things I don't need and tend to keep the things I do buy.  It's great for not wasting money.

[SnakeCharmer]

That unless you're doing everything you can do live in a green environment, you might want to stop tossing stones whilst living in a glass house.

[Morat20]

That unless you're doing everything you can do live in a green environment, you might want to stop tossing stones whilst living in a glass house.

Exactly. I'm with Snakecharmer. If you're not doing EVERYTHING possible, including living in a totally off the grid cave and drinking your own urine (AND in a manner that does NOT affect local animal migration patterns!), you CANNOT bitch about ANYONE's enviromental impact.

Even if they're buying up rainforests and burning them to see the pretty colors. Even if they're removing entire mountops and dumping the waste into your water supply. Even if they're driving a 12mpg 4 wheel, jacked up pickup that can haul five times it's own weight on their daily commute to the mall.

YOU MAY NOT, EVER, even suggest that someone's having an excessive impact on the enviroment unless you have no impact on it at all yourself.

You fucking hypocrite.

Oh shit, forgot the green.

[Nevermore]

That unless you're doing everything you can do live in a green environment, you might want to stop tossing stones whilst living in a glass house.

Rationalization Number 2: No one else does enough, so why should I do anything?

[SnakeCharmer]

That unless you're doing everything you can do live in a green environment, you might want to stop tossing stones whilst living in a glass house.

Exactly. I'm with Snakecharmer. If you're not doing EVERYTHING possible, including living in a totally off the grid cave and drinking your own urine (AND in a manner that does NOT affect local animal migration patterns!), you CANNOT bitch about ANYONE's enviromental impact.

Even if they're buying up rainforests and burning them to see the pretty colors. Even if they're removing entire mountops and dumping the waste into your water supply. Even if they're driving a 12mpg 4 wheel, jacked up pickup that can haul five times it's own weight on their daily commute to the mall.

YOU MAY NOT, EVER, even suggest that someone's having an excessive impact on the enviroment unless you have no impact on it at all yourself.

You fucking hypocrite.

Oh shit, forgot the green.

I'm not the one criticizing his impact on the environment.

Of course, you just TOTALLY missed that one, didn't you, Sparky?

[SnakeCharmer]

That unless you're doing everything you can do live in a green environment, you might want to stop tossing stones whilst living in a glass house.

Rationalization Number 2: No one else does enough, so why should I do anything?

And beyond that, you have NO idea what efforts I make (and have for years) in environmental conservation.

Gas usage is a small drop in the bucket on the grand scheme.

[Nevermore]

You fucking hypocrite.

I'm not the one criticizing his impact on the environment.

This is true, he hasn't been hypocritical in this thread.  He's been completely consistent in rationalizing his sense of entitlement.

Edit:

And beyond that, you have NO idea what efforts I make (and have for years) in environmental conservation.

Feel free to fill out your own little checklist there if you feel unfairly persecuted.

[SnakeCharmer]

I've never stated a thing about entitlement.  You're the one making that leap of faith.

[Prospero]

My only major beef with SUVs is they fucking hurt like hell when you get hit by one. It's true they are safe, but it's because they fuck up whatever they hit. I'd much rather see everyone in smaller lightweight cars, cuz then I'd be on equal footing with them. The only way to be safer than an SUV at this point is to drive a tank. The mileage sucks too, but I suspect the car makers will deal with that soon enough if gas prices keep going up.

[Morat20]

I'm not the one criticizing his impact on the environment.

Of course, you just TOTALLY missed that one, didn't you, Sparky?

It appears you missed my point, Sparky.

Yeah, I know. I was arguing your side. See, you were calling him a hypocrite for criticizing YOUR impact on the enviroment when he's got to be just as bad -- or at least not PERFECT. There's more he can be doing, for sure!

It's a really tired old dodge, very lazy. But it sure makes you feel nice and good to use it, doesn't it? Hell, I didn't get involved in the dick waving "Who drives what" conversation 'cause I don't care, but that particular little response is just so smugly wrong I had to say something.

Just look at how easily that logic applies. Say I'm smoking two packs a day. My brother comes up to me and says "Morat, you're going to fucking kill yourself you know. That shit causes cancer". And I look at him and say "Hey, fucker, you're not wearing sunscreen. Don't lecture me about cancer, when you're blatantly standing outside without sunscreen!".

It's fun! I imply he's a hypocrite (for condemning my cancer causing habits, since he's of course ALSO risking cancer) without ever having to take into account pesky details like degree, risks, effort, costs, or anything else complex like that. PLUS I get to keep lighting up AND I get to feel all smug and shit.

Win fucking Win.

[Simond]

I forgot all about it to be honest.

What do you expect as a reply, anyway?  Some sites say 5*, some say differently.  Depends on who you want to believe.

It might have helped if I'd explained what EuroNCAP is, I suppose.

[SnakeCharmer]

I'm not the one criticizing his impact on the environment.

Of course, you just TOTALLY missed that one, didn't you, Sparky?

It appears you missed my point, Sparky.

Yeah, I know. I was arguing your side. See, you were calling him a hypocrite for criticizing YOUR impact on the enviroment when he's got to be just as bad -- or at least not PERFECT. There's more he can be doing, for sure!

It's a really tired old dodge, very lazy. But it sure makes you feel nice and good to use it, doesn't it? Hell, I didn't get involved in the dick waving "Who drives what" conversation 'cause I don't care, but that particular little response is just so smugly wrong I had to say something.

Just look at how easily that logic applies. Say I'm smoking two packs a day. My brother comes up to me and says "Morat, you're going to fucking kill yourself you know. That shit causes cancer". And I look at him and say "Hey, fucker, you're not wearing sunscreen. Don't lecture me about cancer, when you're blatantly standing outside without sunscreen!".

It's fun! I imply he's a hypocrite (for condemning my cancer causing habits, since he's of course ALSO risking cancer) without ever having to take into account pesky details like degree, risks, effort, costs, or anything else complex like that. PLUS I get to keep lighting up AND I get to feel all smug and shit.

Win fucking Win.

With you and your propensity for internet reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetard outburst, I never know.

Plus, I admit to falling down the sarchasm every now and then.

[Strazos]

Not going to comment on the gas thing, but safety?

PFFT. The only reason you "need" a big SUV to be "safe" is due to the idiots on the road driving other, oversized SUVs. Usually holding only a driver. With no cargo. While the idiot is yammering on the phone.

Sure, I drive a Mustang, and get mid-20s in MPG. No it's not what I would like, but I don't have much of a choice. I currently don't carpool, and when I did, the guy I was switching off with drove one of those small Explorers (the two door type), so it's not like we were Really conserving tons of gas. I have to fill up once a week, if I don't do much driving outside of work.

And fuck, I really do wish I could take public transportation, but in suburban NJ, it's simply not feasible.

[lamaros]

If you can afford something, it's ok in all possible ways!
If what you drive is safe for you personaly, it's safe for everyone you crash into.
If you have friends and go fishing you're awesome! (and it's awesome for everyone you tell about it!)

Unless you're stupid you should do as I do and talk cliches on a message board while comparing yourself to jesus (and being a racist fuckwit from time to time too).

(Get a fucking diesel 4WD, fuckwit)

[SnakeCharmer]

If you can afford something, it's ok in all possible ways!
If what you drive is safe for you personaly, it's safe for everyone you crash into.
If you have friends and go fishing you're awesome! (and it's awesome for everyone you tell about it!)

Unless you're stupid you should do as I do and talk cliches on a message board while comparing yourself to jesus (and being a racist fuckwit from time to time too).

(Get a fucking diesel 4WD, fuckwit)

Your obsession with me is really a bit scary.  

Sorry, dude.  I'm a happily married heterosexual male.  Not interested.   Beyond that, don't like what I have to say?  Don't read it. 

Edit:  Nevermind, got you confused with another one of my apparent fanboys.

BTW, the PSD in PSD 4x4?  It means Power Stroke Diesel.  And if you read a bit of that rather than seeing my name and REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEing, you would noticed the following sentence in reference to it specifically:

Even though it doesn't burn that much more diesel than the GTO burns gas

Reading comprehension ftw.

edit: heh, not even worth stooping to your level.

[SnakeCharmer]

PFFT. The only reason you "need" a big SUV to be "safe" is due to the idiots on the road driving other, oversized SUVs. Usually holding only a driver. With no cargo. While the idiot is yammering on the phone

That's pretty much it. 

Surprisingly, my wife is a really good driver.  It's everyone else I worry about.

[lamaros]

If you don't like what I have to say then stop posting your silly justifications to begin with. Then I wont have anything to respond to. (Two can play at this stupid game! Who knew?)

(Also: Pity Geldon couldn't get away with such a defense.)

Apologies on the 4x4 PSD, I just saw SUV all over the place and assumed, power reading through everything else.

Honestly, if you have a 4x4 and use it for doing 4x4 stuff then I don't really have a problem. It's when you use it to get the groceries and shit that it's stupid. You implied that you wife drives it about daily (or so my speed reading indicated) which is not the same as that.

Surprisingly, my wife is a really good driver.  It's everyone else I worry about.

A couple of cheap points to be made here:

1. A good woman driver?
2. If she's such a good driver she's not going to crash into them with her oversider SUV, so why worry about them?

[Strazos]

Good drivers not only do not get into accidents if it can be helped, but also actively drive in a way so as to minimize the chance of getting into accidents.

A lot of people accomplish the former. The latter...not so much.

[SnakeCharmer]

Yeah, actually.  A good woman driver.

I don't worry about her doing something stupid.  I worry about other people doing something stupid that:
a) She doesn't time to react to (something from outside her peripheral vision)
b) Doesn't have anywhere to 'go', or have an 'out'

Crazy shit can and does happen, no matter how good or careful you are.  
It's not so much for all the things I can think of that can go wrong, it's all the things that I can't think of.  
Those are what scare me.

[lamaros]

Good drivers not only do not get into accidents if it can be helped, but also actively drive in a way so as to minimize the chance of getting into accidents.

A lot of people accomplish the former. The latter...not so much.

I was making a pun:

SnakeCharmer meant he wasn't worried about his wife getting into an accident but he was worried about other drivers crashing in to her. I played on the ambiguity of 'about' to imply that SnakeCharmer was actually worried for those other drivers; worried about what damage his wife might cause them in her oversized buggy.

It was incredibly (incredibly!) funny and I'm sad you failed to appreciate it.

[Strazos]

I wasn't really responding so much to you, as making a general point.

[Abagadro]

Heh, Snakecharmer is such a fucking cliche.